Shobogenzo Bendowa: Dogen's Questions & Answers – Talk 4
March 14, 1987 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
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[Question 7:] Those who haven’t yet realized the buddha-dharma in themselves can attain that realization through negotiating the way in zazen. But for those who have already realized the Buddha’s right dharma, what will be the use of zazen?
I think the point is that if they don’t realize the buddha-dharma yet, anybody can use zazen to attain enlightenment. But […] if you have accomplished Buddha’s Way, how do you use zazen? Is it not necessary to use zazen, or should we continue to use zazen? That is the question.
But that question comes from a dualistic understanding. Because if zazen is used as a means, then very naturally in order to achieve the goal, zazen as a means is necessary for us, is important for us; but if you have accomplished the goal, then zazen as a means is not necessary for us. So that’s why the question is coming up.
What do you do after attaining enlightenment, after accomplishing Buddha’s Way? [Is there a beginning? Is there an end?] Human life should have its own beginning or its own end. If you have an end, when is the end? If you have a beginning, what is the beginning? […] So that is the question.
In the answer, I think Dogen Zenji mentions the most important point of zazen: what kind of zazen we should do. But he is not talking about only the practice of zazen, he is talking about the significance of life, how do we take care of human life – for anybody. So that is the point Dogen Zenji mentions here. He is talking about what kind of zazen we should do, but that meaning of zazen mentioned by Dogen is exactly fitting into how to take care of human life.
I think [the answer] is a little bit difficult for you, because it is a quite different way of understanding human life. So let me read it first:
Although it is said one shouldn’t relate dreams in the presence of fools or place boat poles in the hands of woodsmen, I will give further instructions.
This is very strict. [He chuckles.] Very strict. [Laughter.] Very strict, very “pithy” remarks. [He laughs.] Exactly [what he says] is really fitting into all of us, don’t you think so? We don’t understand [what] Dogen Zenji [is saying]. “What are you talking about, Dogen?”
I read Bendowa when I was at Eiheiji monastery. Completely I didn’t understand. Just like a dream! [He laughs.] Actually there was something there; I felt something there, but I didn’t understand it. Still what Dogen Zenji [said] was far from my life, but it was very attractive. His point is really attractive. Just like listening to orchestra music, you know? We don’t understand how to organize lots of instruments, but when he starts to talk about zazen, he becomes a conductor, and creates wonderful music there. But I didn’t understand how he did it. What does he mean? I didn’t understand it.
If you read the Jijuyu Zanmai in the afternoon service – you don’t understand that one! [Laughter.] Nobody understands. [He laughs.] But pretty interesting, don’t you think so?
[Katagiri Roshi chuckles, and people laugh.]
[…] Dogen Zenji says, “You don’t understand, so even though I give you a boat pole, the boat pole is completely useless for you.” But he says, still he wants to give compassion, because he sees the misunderstanding of zazen used by many people, that’s why he cannot leave them alone. So he wants to give some suggestions. So that is [why he says], “I will give further instructions.”
To think practice and realization are not one is a heretical view.
In the buddha-dharma, to think practice and realization are not one is a heretical view. So first of all he says practice and realization must be one. If you think two, it is not right understanding of the Buddha’s teaching.
In the buddha-dharma, practice and realization are identical. Because one’s present practice is practice in realization, one’s initial negotiation of the way in itself is the whole of original realization. Thus, even while one is directed to practice, he is told not to anticipate realization apart from practice, because practice points directly to original realization. As it is already realization in practice, realization is endless. As it is practice in realization, practice is beginningless. Shakyamuni and Mahakasyapa both were taken and used by practice within realization. Bodhidharma and Patriarch Hui Neng likewise were drawn in and turned by practice in realization. The way of maintaining the buddha-dharma has always been like this.
Practice [is], from its outset, inseparable from realization. Since fortunately we practicers transmit in ourselves our own wondrous practice, our negotiation of the way as beginners acquires our own inherent original realization in a realm free of human agency. You should know that in order to keep us from defiling this realization that is inseparable from practice, Buddhas and patriarchs teach unceasingly that we must not abate our practice. If we cast off the wondrous practice, original realization fills our hands. If we transcend original realization, wondrous practice permeates our body.
I personally saw in the great Sung China Zen monasteries in many areas, each built to include a meditation hall, wherein from five or six hundred to one or two thousand monks were housed and encouraged to devote themselves to zazen day and night. The abbots of these monasteries, teachers who transmit the seal of the Buddha mind, told me when I asked for the essence of Buddhism that practice and realization are not two stages.
For this reason, I urge not only the practicers who come to me, but those of high ability who seek the Dharma, and those who desire the truth in the buddha-dharma – without choosing between beginner and experienced practicer, without taking into account whether someone is enlightened or not – according to the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs to follow the way of the masters of Zen and to negotiate the way in zazen.
Have you not heard that a patriarch has said, “It is not that there is no practice or realization, only that you must not contaminate them by attaching to them.” Another has said, “Those who see the way, practice the way.” What is to be understood is that one must practice in realization.
That is [the whole] answer.
So the point[s] that Dogen Zenji [makes] here… One point is that practice and realization must be one. And the second [point] is that practice and realization must go endlessly, and beginninglessly. […] So in other words, our practice must go forever. That is the point he answered.
I think this is not Dogen Zenji’s idea, this is the essential point of Buddha’s teaching.
For instance, […] I mentioned the other day, cause and effect are separated, but on the other hand, cause and effect are not separated. […] This is Buddhist philosophy. [It] is a little bit difficult to understand the truth that cause and effect are one, or practice and realization are one. It’s very difficult. So I think that’s why we have to study and also we have to practice.
I think the truth is that, as Prajnaparamita says constantly, there is no nose, no eyes, no ears, no mind, no body, no touch – anything. So from this point, the truth is no eyes, no ears, no mind, no tongue, no body… so, no clothes, no feet, no hands… completely nothing. But if we continually say “the truth is nothing,” immediately we believe that there is nothing – but that nothing we have conceptualized is no longer nothing. So very naturally, you fall into the conceptual world. But practically: nothing. Nothing is completely nothing. The moment when you understand nothing, then we have to see that nothing which you have understood more clearly.
So finally the stage which you can reach is completely nothing. So in the nothing, what happens? What is there? Completely nothing – well, it’s pretty difficult to explain “completely nothing.” But if you use “nothing,” immediately we are caught by the “nothing,” which is conceptualized by our consciousness, so [it is] no longer nothing. So it’s pretty hard to say what the nothing is.
That’s why finally through the practice of zazen, probably buddhas and ancestors touch the truth of nothing, what the nothing is. So finally, maybe we say nothing is kind of motion, or activities in dynamism. If I say so, very naturally we are caught by the form of motion, which is explaining what emptiness is. So we fall into the trap.
So motion is not the motion we can believe. Because motion existant in the nothing is not the usual motion, because it is completely activities […] running at super-speed. So motion is no longer motion; motion is stillness. If something moves at super-speed, it becomes still, very quiet.
And then next we are caught by the stillness: “Oh yes; emptiness is complete stillness.” And then if you understand emptiness as stillness, you fall into pessimism, or sadness, […] inactivity. But stillness is also not the usual stillness, because if you become completely still, well, [the] state of existence becomes very sharp, very sensitive, to be[-ing]. So if there is a perfect stillness, that stillness no longer stays with itself, so-called stillness, but it creates noise. Because if even a speck of dust touches that stillness, it vibrates. Stillness, if it is completely, absolutely stillness, becomes very sensitive to vibrate. So stillness creates noise.
But at that time, that noise is not something opposed to stillness. Simultaneously noise and stillness come together. It’s impossible to believe this, but it’s exactly there.
So can you call it stillness? No, it’s not stillness, because it’s moving. But is it moving? No it’s not moving, it’s quiet, very quiet. So what is the truth? The truth is stillness? No, it’s not stillness. Is it movement? No, it’s not movement. Is it energy? No, it’s not energy. So, nothing to conceptualize.
What makes them exist? We don’t know what makes them exist. […] For instance, [there is] stillness there – what makes it possible for the stillness to be so sensitive to be[-ing]? We don’t know. Maybe there are many things there; that is called conditional factors.
Conditional factors – I don’t know how I can say [what they are]. Atoms? Particles? [He laughs.] Something more than that. Light? I don’t know. Dust? Probably. Air? I don’t know what it is.
Or chemical factors? Probably biologists say that if you trace back a million, million years ago [that the] beginning of the world, the beginning of being, is nothing but chemical factors. Probably. [But] what is a chemical factor?
But we understand probably there is something – there are many things, but we don’t know what they are. So Buddhism says those are conditional elements, conditional factors. Many conditional factors, coming from the beginningless past, and going to the future, endlessly. Myriad, myriad conditional factors. Visibly, invisibly. We don’t know what they are. And also we don’t know how they come together and create that perfect stillness, and simultaneously the movement in stillness. We don’t know! But practically speaking, something [is] there. That is called truth, we say.
But truth is very tricky, very tricky. [Yet] it’s very clear.
So which comes first? Does the conditional element comes first? Or stillness? Or does movement comes first? We don’t know. So [they come] simultaneously. That’s why we say interdependent co-origination. We don’t know which comes first, because [it is] running at super-speed, so we don’t know. What makes it possible for it to run at super-speed? We don’t know. And [we don’t know] how we make it something.
So in the realm of the truth, perfect stillness creates something, [and] something created returns to the stillness, so vice versa, at super-speed. And also around the stillness, around the movement, there are many conditional elements, factors, and then both stillness and also movement come together and work together, and exchange their own positions at super-speed in peace and harmony, and then create something. That is the beginning of the world. That is the beginning of human beings. Form. Trees, birds.
So that is what we call Buddha’s world.
When you realize that, you are called Buddha. That truth is very wondrous, mysterious – we don’t understand what’s going on. But practically, as a matter of fact, we can taste it, we can feel it. We can experience it. Because we live there! So it’s mysterious, but it’s not mysterious – it’s very direct and simultaneous, straightforward. So it’s wondrous – we say wondrous dharma.
So the truth is wondrous dharma. If you realize wondrous dharma, then you are called Buddha. And also that dharma is constantly helping all sentient beings, because [it is] constantly creating. So very naturally, that dharma is called dharma-body, dharmakaya, which is a part of Buddha’s body. So dharmakaya, or buddha-nature – many words are coming up.
From this point, I think the same applies to practice and realization, enlightenment.
So how can we approach to this buddha-dharma – that dharma, that truth? From human eyes, by using our effort, how do we approach that truth?
That’s why when you practice, you have to practice with sincere heart, devote full effort. Because stillness is not the usual stillness – it’s movement. So if you use [your] effort, so-called movement, it’s not the right movement, so-called effort. You have to be liberated from the effort you have made. So, what? Just do it. Then you become still.
So if you really make every possible effort using your whole body and mind, spin totally, and then you can make it still. And then when you become still, very naturally stillness creates activities. So you cannot stop it. Naturally, you are going, constantly.
So when you practice, all you can do is still practice must be practice. Because in the truth, all stillness has to do is to be still. Perfectly still. And then, that stillness itself creates movement. Noise. But if we say [something] about that, very naturally we fall into the dualistic realms – so, stillness and activity, noise. But in the truth, how can the stillness create movement? Because there is nothing. So all the stillness has to do is to be still. That’s it. And then, stillness creates movement.
That’s why yesterday I [said] “zazen is jijiyu samadhi” means self becomes self, and is selfing. You become you, you are you-ing, and you settle yourself in the self, exactly. And then you are not you – you are Buddha. That means creative life [is] coming up. Something which you have never thought before.
So that is [why] Dogen Zenji says zazen is jijiyu samadhi. In the beginning of Bendowa, he [speaks] about zazen very clearly:
That it is only transmitted without deviation from Buddha to Buddha is due to the jijiyu samadhi, which is its touchstone.
This is zazen, okay?
So how can you practice zazen [in] which practice and enlightenment become one? All you can do is: if you direct yourself toward the practice, practice becomes practice, and practice is practicing, and practice settles itself in the practice. Then, practice becomes enlightenment. Because practice is perfect practice there.
Is that practice something you should create? No. It’s not your business. It is myriad, myriad conditional elements’ business, conditional factors’ business. So all you can do is just put your body right in the middle of conditional elements, and then use your effort, and do it. Tune in the dial of [the] truth, universal rhythm. And then, your practice is liberated from the concept of practice. And then practice turns into enlightenment.
And then enlightenment is what? The enlightenment which you have thought is already conceptualizations, so it’s not enlightenment. Real enlightenment is exactly movement, because enlightenment gives lots of quality to you, to your life. So enlightenment is nothing but movement, full activities in your life. So-called emptiness? We can say [so]. And then simultaneously that total movement becomes very quiet.
So how can you create quietness? […] Movement becomes movement as it is, and movement is moving, and then settle the movement in the movement itself. Then, very naturally, your whole body and mind becomes still. That is called enlightenment, total enlightenment. So within the enlightenment you can see both, stillness and movement, simultaneously.
So that is [what] Dogen Zenji says here (in Answer 7):
[To think] practice and realization are not one is a heretical view. In the buddha-dharma, practice and realization are identical.
Identical is still a word. In the truth, we cannot say practice and realization separately. We cannot say so. If you use two words, practice and realization, we are already playing a game in the dualistic world. Strictly speaking, practice and realization are not two, [they are] working together there. But temporarily, we have to say [so].
For instance, Katagiri. From the beginning to end, what I have to do is, Katagiri becomes Katagiri, and Katagiri should be Katagiri-ing, and Katagiri settles Katagiri in Katagiri. And then Katagiri grows; that is growth of Katagiri, that is maturity. So very naturally you can be seen [in the time process].
[Or for example], when a woman becomes a woman. From the beginning to end, a woman becomes a woman. [But] “from the beginning to end, a woman becomes a woman,” that is a little difficult to understand.
What do [I] mean [by] “Katagiri becomes Katagiri, and Katagiri is Katagiri-ing, Katagiri settles Katagiri in Katagiri”? It’s really boring. [Some laughter.] Very naturally, we want to see some result. But [the] result [is] coming from those basic activities: practice right there, then naturally a result is coming up, so-called maturity, growth. And then when we see the growth and maturity, then we are very happy. When we become very excited, completely we forget the basic practice, called […] “Katagiri becomes Katagiri, and is Katagiri-ing, and settles Katagiri in Katagiri.” We completely forget it. We are carried away by result, consequence.
So how can how can a woman become a woman, so-called growth? Well, [get] married and have a baby, then you become a woman, something like that. [He laughs.] And then you say, “I am happy as a woman.” Then you completely forget the beginning, basic practice. Whatever happens, from the beginning to end, […] a woman becomes a woman. That’s it.
In the buddha-dharma, practice and realization are identical. Because one’s present practice is practice in realization, one’s initial negotiation of the way in itself is the whole of original realization.
This is called bendo, we say – bendo of Bendowa. [The translator] says “negotiation of the way.” […] The real meaning of practice is exactly like this.
Thus even while one is directed to practice, he is told not to anticipate realization apart from practice, …
So your body and mind are directed toward practice, and then, all you can do is just take best care of practice. At that time, realization [is] there.
… because practice points directly to original realization.
So perfect stillness, simultaneously with movement, that is called true stillness. True stillness has a form and simultaneously no form. That is true stillness.
True movement has form and also no form. Because movement becomes totally movement, and then movement creates movement, and movement settles in the movement, and then very naturally movement is liberated from conceptions of movement. That is called stillness. No movement.
So from perfect stillness you can get energy. If you do zazen, very naturally you always feel a certain kind of energy coming up. You don’t know from where it comes, but you can feel energy.
As it is already realization in practice, realization is endless.
That’s why as it is already realization in practice, realization is endless. So realization is always going there. Within the realization, within the universe, we can take a breath. Our heart is beating.
As it is practice in realization, practice is beginningless.
So practice is, [for example,] constantly from the beginning to end Katagiri becomes Katagiri. That’s all we can do, from the beginning to end. So endlessly, I have to do like this, whatever happens. Katagiri becomes pretty wise, or Katagiri becomes stupid – whatever happens, all I can do is, Katagiri becomes Katagiri.
So that is beginningless practice, endless practice. Forever.
Shakyamuni and Mahakasyapa both were taken and used by practice within realization. Bodhidharma and Patriarch Hui Neng likewise were drawn in and turned by practice in realization.
So all buddhas and ancestors practice like this. They don’t make every effort to practice to attain enlightenment; they are drawn in and turned by this truth, the truth of the practice. They cannot stop it.
[Tape change.]
… They live in this world; they cannot stop. So constantly we do.
So Shakyamuni Buddha’s practice is like this, Mahakasyapa’s practice is like this, Bodhidharma’s is the same thing.
The way of maintaining the buddha-dharma has always been like this.
Constantly like this.
Practice is, from its outset, inseparable from realization. Since fortunately we transmit in ourselves our own wondrous practice, our negotiation of the way as beginners acquires our own inherent original realization in a realm free of human agency.
“Fortunately we transmit in ourselves our own wondrous practice”: regardless of whether you realize it or not, we transmit this kind of wondrous practice. That’s why if you realize it, you can practice it. But if you don’t realize it, it doesn’t disappear; it’s with you constantly. So someday, somewhere, you can practice it.
“… our negotiation of the way as beginners …”: the beginning of your practice is simultaneously enlightenment. When you do zazen even for a moment, you become Buddha. If you’re a first grade child, you are a human, you are a Buddha. A baby, it is Buddha. So we can respect [them] completely.
You should know that in order to keep us from defiling this realization that is inseparable from practice, Buddhas and patriarchs teach unceasingly that we must not abate our practice.
Because we pretty easily fall into the dualistic. And even though you fall into the dualistic, we don’t realize it. So how can we be free from the dualistic world? Very naturally there is a unique way to get into [freedom]: through only pure activity, undefiled activity, motion. That’s why the ancestors, the buddhas, encouraged us to practice constantly, unceasingly, like this.
So from day to day, Katagiri must be Katagiri. [Whether] Katagiri feels good or bad, whatever happens, anyway Katagiri becomes Katagiri. Please, unceasingly, you should take care of your practice like this.
And then, even though Katagiri doesn’t realize it, that practice turns into enlightenment, because it is growth. By this practice I can grow, I can mature. […] This is called maturity. And then, I can learn many things. This is education.
So that’s why “buddhas and patriarchs teach unceasingly that we must not abate our practice.” “Abate our practice” means if you fall into dualism – “hard practice,” “easy practice” – this is abate. Or on the other hand, not-abate – “let’s do it,” excited to practice – that is exactly the same as abate. Because such a kind of effort doesn’t last for long; you are exhausted pretty easily. That’s why [either] abate, or excited to practice, in order to get the food right in front of you. But both are the same.
So what kind of practice should we do? That’s why buddhas and ancestors teach unceasingly that we must not abate our practice, just continually practice like this.
If we cast off the wondrous practice, original realization fills our hands.
Then, another important practice is, if we practice like this, then we can grow. And then immediately we are falling into the trap again: [we think] “that is a true, true practice,” “let’s do it,” excitedly. That’s why he says “if we cast off wondrous practice.” You must be liberated. In other words that wondrous practice must be liberated, because it is perfect movement. Total movement; there is no conceptual world. The conceptual world is coming after your total activities: thought, life. What you have built up comes after this real practice, real movement, activities.
So very naturally, you have to drop off that concept of wondrous practice which you have realized, which you have been practicing. You have to be just free from, liberated from that. And then, original realization fills your hands. Original: it’s very pure enlightenment. In other words, total dynamic working, [in that the] universe supports your life, naturally. This is called original realization. Original realization is prior to poking your head into [it]. So that is a real world.
So that is original realization. It fills your hands, but you don’t notice it. How do you notice? Just your wondrous practice must be liberated from your concept, and then original realization fills your hands.
Next he says:
If we transcend original realization, wondrous practice permeates our body.
In other words, the whole universe supports me, and then immediately we fall into the dualistic, conceptual world. That’s why he says next, “we have to transcend original realization,” then “wondrous practice permeates your body.” [He chuckles.] If you do it, naturally your practice is alive. Your body, your mind, alive, before you poke your head into it. Your stomach and your body are working together, before you poke your head into your stomach. Stomach is working pretty well, [in accord] with your whole body. Millions and millions of cells, nerves become one.
So that is a wondrous practice. If you look at the human body, the human body is really wondrous, mysterious. How do you create this? It’s really mysterious, it’s really amazing. No concept, actually – just movement there. Originally, what would make it possible to create that human body? We don’t know. But we realize that there must be many, many things. That is conditional factors, we say. Under the conditional factors, conditional elements, then something happens. But those conditional elements are very quiet, still. Perfectly still. But it’s movement.
So, if something happens, always there is a stillness and also movement there, and then something happens. That is a form. So each cell, each nerve, is created under such circumstances. That’s why it’s very mysterious. Something more than a computer. A huge, wondrous computer; your head is a wondrous computer. But everybody believes the computer more than [themself], more than your body. [He chuckles.] But your head is much, much more than your computer.
51:01
I personally saw in the great Sung China Zen monasteries in many areas, each built to include a meditation hall, wherein from five or six hundred to one or two thousand monks were housed and encouraged to devote themselves to zazen day and night. The abbots of these monasteries, teachers who transmit the seal of the Buddha mind, told me when I asked for the essence of Buddhism that practice and realization are not two stages.
For this reason, I urge not only the practicers who come to me but those of high ability who seek the Dharma and those who desire the truth in the buddha-dharma – without choosing between beginner and experienced practicer, without taking into account whether someone is enlightened or not – according to the teachings of buddhas and patriarchs to follow the way of the masters of Zen and to negotiate the way in zazen.
Because in many monasteries in China, from generation to generation, teachers present this teaching. Regardless of whether people understand or not, [they] constantly present this teaching.
Have you not heard that a patriarch has said, “It is not that there is no practice or realization, only that you must not contaminate them by attaching to them.”
This is a statement from a conversation between [Nan-yueh] and his teacher [Hui Neng].
Hui Neng said, “From where do you come?”
Nan-yueh said, “From the southern part of China.”
Then [Hui Neng asked], “What is it thus come?”
You know, “Who comes?” Nan-yueh says, “I come from the southern part of China,” and then the teacher says, “Who comes?” Simply speaking, who comes? Hui Neng comes, or something more than Hui Neng comes? Who comes? Then that question is, “What is thus come?”
[Nan-yueh] didn’t understand, so for eight years he contemplated this question. And then finally he understood, saying, “Nothing to hit the mark in a word.”
And then the teacher [asked about how much he understood this]. Does “nothing hits the mark” mean zero, completely nothing? What do you mean, “nothing”? If there is nothing in the usual sense, why do you practice? Why do you talk about enlightenment?
So [the teacher asked], “Do you still believe there are practice and enlightenment?”
Then [Nan-yueh said it] like this: “It is not that there is no practice or realization, only that you mustn’t contaminate them by attaching to them.”
That means, all you have to do is you become you, you are you-ing, and settle yourself in the self – jijuyu samadhi. And then, very naturally, there is the stillness and movement, but movement is never contaminated by stillness, stillness is never contaminated by movement, but movement and stillness come together, working together, create a being. That is your practice, your effort.
That’s why here it says it like this.
Another has said, “Those who see the way, practice the way.” What is to be understood is that one must practice in realization.
55:41
Question 8 and 9 are not so difficult, so let me just read these:
Question 8: Why have the teachers who have spread Buddhism in former times in our country, when they went to China and became transmitted of dharma, transmitted only the doctrine and ignored zazen?
Answer 8: The teachers of men in the past didn’t transmit this dharma, zazen, because the opportunity was not yet ripe for it.
This is really compassionate.
Real truth is always there, but if the time is not ripe, conditions are not arranged, it’s very difficult to transmit this one. So very naturally, people cannot teach this one.
Question 9: Did those teachers of earlier time comprehend this dharma?
Answer 9: If they had comprehended, they would have made it known.
Yes. If they know, they can do it.
Hai. Do you have a question?
Question: Excuse me, so Hojo-san, are you saying that he said that they didn’t comprehend it, because they didn’t make it known? Because they didn’t teach it?
Katagiri Roshi: “If they had comprehended, they would have made it known.” It means if you know even intellectually or emotionally, I think you can know. In other words, more or less, it penetrates your body and mind, so you can do it – practice, a little bit. That’s what it means.
Questioner: So they would make it known. Whether or not they taught it, they would be making it known?
Someone: Hojo-san, in the sentence, “If we cast off the wondrous practice, original realization fills our hands. If we transcend original realization, wondrous practice permeates our body.” Obviously I don’t really understand it…
Katagiri Roshi: Well, simply speaking, completely you are just… pure.
Someone: Is there… there’s a sense to me of, when he says “if we cast off wondrous practice,” does that mean because we attach to it?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Because we are living always in the dualistic world.
Someone: As soon as it comes up, we conceptualize it.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, conceptualize it.
Someone: So we have to let go of that.
Katagiri Roshi: Basically, generally speaking, we are always living in the world of conceptualization. In other words, you are living in the world of language, words, thought. That’s it. Otherwise, it’s pretty difficult to communicate. So we use a word, we use conceptualizing, but we don’t know how to be free from conceptualizations, words, language. So very naturally we are confused.
So that’s why communication is not real communication. Still there is a gap, you know? And a [code], something like that.
59:50
Question: Could you say more about you-ing, or self-ing?
Katagiri Roshi: [Chuckles.]
Questioner: Aren’t you always you-ing? Or if you aren’t you-ing, then what are you doing?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, you are already you-ing. But if you don’t realize it, you are you-ing, but you doesn’t work very well. [Laughter.] Because you are you-ing doesn’t penetrate your life. You are you-ing is with you, but it doesn’t penetrate to [your] whole body, consciousness. Some part of your body is penetrated, but [only] part, not totally.
Or, maybe what you are you-ing helps you, even though you don’t realize it, but it doesn’t work with [other] people, you know? [He laughs.] With all sentient beings. So very naturally, we have to realize it through the human consciousness. Because we always see and hear and communicate through the consciousness, and the bodies. That consciousness [communicates] exactly identical with the bodies, so that’s why [the working of consciousness] is very complicated. So even though you are you-ing is constantly going, beyond your realization, [still] consciousness really cuts off [the] total function of you are you-ing.
So that’s why you have to realize it through the consciousness. But if you realize it, and then understand “you are you-ing,” then consciousness leads you to fall into another trap: so called “I am I-ing.” [He laughs.] Something like that. So it’s pretty difficult to be exactly fully alive in the flow of activities. Just like eating a pizza – just eating a pizza, with all sentient beings. It’s pretty hard, isn’t it?
So another trap, and another trap, again and again. That’s why Dogen Zenji says you must be free from original realization, then your practice penetrates your life, naturally.
I think you can read Genjokoan again, and Genjokoan talks about ashes and kindling, and life and death. Usually we believe kindling becomes ashes, in the time process. But in Buddhism, we don’t believe it. If you believe kindling becomes ashes, kindling is before ashes, ashes is after kindling – if you believe it, this is a misunderstanding. [He laughs.]
Someone: Would you clarify that, please? Because that’s what I believe. [She laughs.]
Katagiri Roshi: That is the common dualistic world, the usual sense. That’s why kindling becomes kindling, and then just kindling takes care of its own activity fully, and then the kindling settles itself in the kindling. Then it becomes ashes.
So within that total function of the kindling, there is ashes. Okay? So it’s not necessary to anticipate ashes.
So that’s why Dogen Zenji says, there is [a] complete cut off [of] before and after, but there is before and after. When the kindling really takes care of its own life exactly like this, then before and after is cut off. But, it’s connected.
So Genjokoan says:
Kindling becomes ash and cannot become kindling again, however we shouldn’t see the ash as after and the kindling as before. Know that kindling abides in the normative state of kindling.
Normative means dharma state. Dharma state means the universe. Something more than the universe I am talking about – truth, anyway. Public universe, okay? [He laughs.] Totally public universe. Not the individual universe, understood by somebody else, [or] by something, physics, et cetera. Beyond this, okay? That is a dharma state, normative state.
Kindling abides in the normative state of kindling – so what is it? Kindling is kindling, but simultaneously kindling is liberated from the concept of the kindling, that is kindling which exists in the universe. That is a total state, true picture of the kindling.
So your life exists in the universe. What does it mean? Your life is formed, but your life is liberated, simultaneously. So that is a total picture of life, when your life is in the normative state of your life, exactly.
And though it has a before and after, the realms of before and after are disconnected.
So continuation in discontinuation, discontinuation in continuation, there.
And then he says,
This being the case, not saying that life becomes death is an established custom in Buddhism.
Very naturally, we believe life is before death, death is after life. It is a misunderstanding in Buddhism.
Do you have a question?
1:07:49
Question: Hojo-san? I’ve also been wondering about this analogy between practice and medicine? You know, that a person is sick and they come to practice like they would come to a doctor, and Buddhism is the medicine. But if you went to a doctor and the doctor said, “Take this medicine,” and you took it and you didn’t notice any difference, and you said “I don’t notice any progress,” and the doctor said, “The progress that you notice isn’t real progress.”
Katagiri Roshi: “Progress is…”
Questioner: If he said, “You can’t tell if you’re getting well anyway, so just keep taking the medicine.”
Katagiri Roshi: Uh-huh.
Questioner: Um, it seems like me like the analogy breaks down there.
Katagiri Roshi: No, I don’t mean this. Because we are already living in dualistic world, you know? Cause and effect. But a question is how do you take care of cause and effect? That is our practice. Okay?
If you go to see the doctor, the doctor always checks your body and then gives prescriptions, gives medicine to you. And then medicine is made from cause and effect, so very naturally, if you take this, you will recover. But sometimes, [it doesn’t work]. But they try to make an effort to do this.
But the question is, [he laughs,] we cannot anticipate perfect result after taking a medicine. Because even if the medicine is [not at] fault, because if a patient is very nervous and also some problem psychologically, at that time the medicine sometimes doesn’t work.
So medicine itself is universal. Try to recover from your sickness, and then give it, and take it. But if your body and your mind is not working totally in peace and harmony, medicine is not effective in an appropriate way. So sometimes it doesn’t work. That’s why in order to make the medicine effective, your body and mind must be [normal], in the sickness. So, take it. It means, without anticipating the result, all you have to do is, you become you, and you are you-ing, and settle yourself in the self. And that is simultaneously taking a medicine. Medicine effective so much.
Question: Are you are saying, Hojo-san, that if the medicine of Buddha’s practice doesn’t work, that the fault isn’t with the Buddha’s practice but with the practicer?
Katagiri Roshi: Excuse me. What?
Questioner: If the medicine doesn’t work, or it doesn’t seem to work, are you saying that the fault is not with the medicine, or with the practice in this case, but with the practicer?
Katagiri Roshi: Sometimes. But sometimes, the wrong medicine is given to you. So I don’t know which is wrong. But finally, strictly speaking, … if you have a doctor, I think the relationship between the doctor and you is going pretty well, I think, based on trust. So very naturally, the doctor makes every possible effort to [help you recover from your sickness], and also you trust in the doctor, and you try to recover from your sickness. But sometimes your mind is changing so much according to the circumstances, and even though you are okay now, next moment you are not okay. So finally, you are very confused, and agitated, and doubt, so even though you take a medicine it doesn’t work. But the total situation is okay, no problem. But under the situation which is okay, there are many changing situations coming up. So there is no guarantee who is wrong. So finally, medicine is okay, doctor is okay, you are okay. And then, are you okay? No, next moment, you are not okay. Because under certain circumstances, by the conditioned elements, factors, immediately you change. So you are agitated and confused and then you don’t want to take it. That moment changes, the world changes.
Is that what you mean? Is that alright?
Questioner: Uh-huh. But you’re saying that there’s only one prescription, also, right? In Zen there’s only one prescription?
Katagiri Roshi: What do you mean, one prescription?
Questioner: Like it says in Bendowa, practice and realization are the same, and just full devotion to sitting?
Katagiri Roshi: Practice and realization are one?
Questioner: Mm-hmm.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes.
Questioner: That’s the prescription in every case?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
It doesn’t ignore the doctor and the medicine and the patient, okay? Including all. From that one prescription, doctors, medicine, patients come out.
Someone: So, [questioner], were you thinking of zazen as a medicine, sort of?
Questioner: I thought that’s what he said … yeah.
Someone: But there could be more than one medicine, couldn’t there…
Katagiri Roshi: Something more than medicine, but that’s why medicine is no problem, actually. Strictly speaking, medicine itself is not the usual concept of medicine, in terms of zazen. It’s not medicine. But if you use an analogy, “zazen is medicine,” you can say so, but that medicine is a little bit different from usual concept of the medicine. That’s why he says “one prescription.”
Someone: So… upaya might be more like medicine, in that there’d be different kinds for different people?
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, upaya? [Which] means skillfulness, method? Maybe so.
1:16:15
Question: Roshi, speaking of zazen as a medicine, in one of the chants, or the thing that we read in the evening, Dogen says, “If you follow this practice, your treasure chest will open of itself and you can use it at will.” Does that process naturally unfold just by doing the practice? Last summer I went to one Rinzai sesshin, and Sazaki Roshi, one day he talked a little bit about the difference between Soto and Rinzai. Basically the way he tried to put it – I’m not sure that he really thinks this way, but he said, “Well, the Soto school basically is a scholarly and philosophical school who also practice Shikantaza.” And they seem to believe that while Dogen may have been enlightened, that basically he was a scholar, and that what he taught didn’t necessarily lead to enlightenment. But if you believe the teachings, what Dogen says is that if you do this, there will be a natural unfolding that will happen.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Questioner: And what I’m wondering is, does that natural unfolding really occur, or do you need some more… they seem to think you need more of a breakthrough type of approach?
Katagiri Roshi: Well […] yes, naturally unfold. Realization is unfolding naturally, if you practice like this, exactly. Okay?
Questioner: Mm-hmm.
Katagiri Roshi: Can you believe it? [He laughs.] Well, believe it or not, if you do it. This is life. You have to do it. Otherwise you cannot facilitate the development of education, and personalities … no way. Constantly you have to unfold your life. How can you unfold your life as a buddha? Not unfold “you” as covered with the egoistic sense, you know? That’s easy! [He laughs.] We always unfold ourselves covered with egoism… pretty easy. But not covered with egoism, [you have to unfold yourself as a buddha]. How do you do this? You cannot unfold yourself in the dualistic world. So very naturally, one world. It means, when you do gassho, then you can unfold your life as a buddha. What do you mean? Can you analyze? The moment when you analyze, “Yes I do, this is a buddha” – you know, immediately you analyze. But this action, activity, flow activity, so-called gassho, with wholeheartedness, with the true sincere heart, that is a buddha. Because you become peaceful. And also people are impressed very much. Even though [they] don’t have such a cultural background, people do [gassho].
For instance, you know, Narasaki Roshi went back to Japan from here, and Minayishi-san told me [later in a] letter, [the stewardess] always expressed very humble, respectful attitude toward Narasaki Roshi – not toward Minayishi-san and Hokan-san, et cetera. [Laughter.] So he thought, “Why does she always take best care of Narasaki Roshi only, with respect and kindness?” And then he watched [Narasaki Roshi] very often, and he realized he always gasshoed very sincerely. Whenever the stewardess came and talked and gave us something, he always [said], “Thank you.” That’s it. Do you understand?
So that is peace. That is unfold yourself as a buddha. No partition between stewardess and Narasaki Roshi, or race, Americans and Narasaki Roshi.
Questioner: Well, to me it seems like it would almost have to be a natural unfolding that was spontaneous, and not even a conscious thing, because as soon as I say “this is something I have to do,” then there’s me, the subject, and the object, and there’s immediately dualism, and you’ve immediately lost it. So as soon as I say, “I have to do it,” then you can’t do it.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, that’s why your cultural background which you have accumulated, and your education, really interrupts you, you know? [He laughs.] For instance, everyone is impressed by this sincere demonstration of human life like Narasaki Roshi. More or less everyone is impressed. But people don’t know how to react to this, because immediately they say, “Oh, I’m American; what do you mean [by] gassho?” – something like that. So immediately you [hesitate], stand off. That’s why education, customs, heredity, and your knowledge, really prevent you from unfolding yourself straightforwardly as a buddha.
So that’s why we need to practice again and again. That’s why buddhas and ancestors [say to] practice unceasingly. Anyway, we have to do it, without abating, practice. So even though cultural background immediately interrupts your straightforward practice, [still] we have to do it, again and again. That is to “not abate” our practice, constantly.
So very naturally, zazen is correcting, and that activity or practice is correcting your habit, and the postures, et cetera. We have lots of postures created by us: cultural postures, mental postures, [he laughs,] psychological postures, you know? So “just do it” is exactly correcting a posture…
[Tape change.]
1:23:34
Question: … we’re wholehearted, but it’s like sleep, somehow. You know, you don’t know what happened. And then sometimes, you practice wholeheartedly, and you seem to be awake in it. So it’s like the samadhi realizes itself or sees itself somehow. But most of the time it’s pretty much like sleep.
Katagiri Roshi: Mmm. If you realize [that] you are most of the time asleep, [then] that is pretty good: it’s not sleep; you realize it, through the gassho. So not sleep or sleep is both realization, by the gassho.
But if you realize it, if you see the sleep, and then you fall into [involvement] so much, because you don’t like it. But on the other hand, you are not [asleep] through the gassho is also pretty good, you know? But if it is good, you are very happy, so you don’t pay attention so much. But if you see something wrong, then you are very nervous and then you don’t like it, that’s why you are really hanging on. But actually, both are some aspect of human life emerging out of this total realization of gassho, unfolding yourself in the realm of gassho. Don’t you think so?
Questioner: I don’t know. You talk about realization in gassho; it seems like most of the time there is no realization in gassho.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, that is already realization, because you say realization of gassho. You know?
So two things always happen, or a neutral situation happens, always. So if you do something and then you don’t know what’s going on, this is also realization, awakening. Don’t you think so? Because you live already.
For instance, I am talking [about] Buddha’s teaching now, and then I look around at everyone’s face: how much do you understand? And then I’m checking silently, and you understand a little bit, you understand 70%, et cetera. [Laughter.] Then finally I decide, “Oh, everyone doesn’t understand,” [he laughs,] something like that. So “everyone doesn’t understand” – from where does it come? Well, realization of unfolding myself in the lecture, that’s it. And then, “70% understanding my teaching” – well it’s also coming from the same root. So whichever comes. Or sometimes neutral: “What are you thinking about this Buddha’s teaching?” You don’t understand it, but you understand it, but you don’t know. [He chuckles.]
There is a very interesting advertisement about the Sunkist orange – did you see that advertisement? Three people come to the grocery store and are checking the Sunkist oranges, you know. One person picks up one and is tapping the orange. And […] the next one comes and is shaking the orange. [He laughs.] And then he mentions that this guest tried to get a nice orange by shaking. Another one came and picked up an orange, and looking at it. [He laughs.] And the gentleman says, “I don’t know what she is doing.” Do you understand? [Laughter.] Looking at the orange like this; whether it is a nice orange or not, you know? So that is neutral. We don’t know. You are always looking at the orange of the buddha-dharma: what’s going on inside? [He laughs.] But whatever happens, anyway, it comes from the same root.
So lots of arguments there. Finally, what do you want to say? Nothing to say. [He laughs.]
Question: It’s hard not to get discouraged, you know? At least in other schools, they hold something in front of you. A carrot, or something to look forward to, you know? Enlightenment. But what you are saying, you should just continue wholehearted practice no matter what you see. It gets weary… to keep going.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, I think that in the usual sense it’s weary, but for the long run, I think it is a very compassionate way to make you peaceful. But if I always, you know, demonstrate enlightenmentment right in front of you, you become nervous, you know? [Laughter.] “You should do it,” you know? “[Who is there?]” You become nervous.
Questioner: Maybe just on occasion! [Laughter.] [Katagiri Roshi laughs.]
Katagiri Roshi: That occasion is important for us. Whatever it is.
Question: Well, can I make a comment about that?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure.
Questioner: If you like yoga or, I think, even Tibetan Buddhism, they’ll give you all these stages. It is like in yoga, you’re doing these breathing practices, and they’re saying, “Okay, now you are cleansing the psychic channels of your body, and it’s supposed to produce these effects.” So a beginner does that for a while and starts to feel the effects, and it gives them a sense of progress then.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes.
Questioner: And it’s like, “and now you do this meditation and it is supposed to produce another kind of effect.” Where it seems like Zen is very pure and it just says, “just practice.”
Katagiri Roshi: Well, pure means continuous practice, you know? But if you follow the practice according to what you mentioned, it seems to me that you graduated from a university and [Master’s degree] and Ph.D., and then you say, “This is the end of my life.” [He laughs.] You know? “That’s the end; that’s what I want to do.” But it’s not the end. Still you have to go, so the end is the beginning of life. So what is the end of life, the end of studying, end of learning? Is it completely nothing? [No], it’s there; so you have to go to school. But is graduation the end? No, it’s not the end.
So very naturally, what you have to do is for the long run. Well, you have to do it, […] you have to do this one with wholeheartedness. […] Katagiri becomes Katagiri, right here, and Katagiri becomes Katagiri, and settling Katagiri in the self. That is all you can do. Then naturally, graduation is coming up. That is, we say, “end,” but it’s not the end. After the end, we have to still continually just practice, basic practice. Katagiri becomes Katagiri, that’s it.
That is very kind. [He laughs.] Very kind! Peaceful. Naturally result [is] coming up.
But I don’t mean from the beginning you should ignore the result. Result is very naturally there: cause and […] effect. But that is [like] a prescription. You cannot always read the prescriptions without taking the medicine. [He laughs.] [Just saying,] “Wonderful prescriptions,” you know? [Laughter.] It doesn’t [heal] you.
So I don’t mean that what you mention is something wrong; it’s all right. But […] that’s why people sometimes are very nervous. Very nervous; continually nervous. Then finally, they don’t know what to do.
1:33:37
Question: Excuse me, Hojo-san, there’s something in here that makes me very nervous. [Katagiri Roshi and others laugh.] It says, “I urge not only the practicers who come to me, but those of high ability who seek the dharma, and those who desire the truth in the buddha-dharma.” So does that mean even if you don’t have high ability, but you seek the truth, that’s okay too?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure.
Questioner: That makes up for it?
Katagiri Roshi: Beyond wise or not wise, you can seek for this practice. That’s the point you want to ask?
Someone: What do you think Dogen means by “ability”?
Katagiri Roshi: “Ability”? I think from the Dogen Zenji’s point of view, ability is buddha-nature, if I say [it]. It means kind of a water vein under the ground – lots of water there. That is ability.
Questioner: But then some people have high ability? Some people, he says, have high ability. Then you have lots of water?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, lots of water under the ground – probably.
Questioner: From past lives?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm, from the past life. It’s connected … from the past life.
Someone: Wasn’t it the Sixth Patriarch who was an illiterate woodcutter, and one day went to town and heard of a Buddhist monk reciting the Diamond Sutra, and just upon hearing the recitation was immediately enlightened?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm…