Shobogenzo Bendowa: Dogen's Questions & Answers – Talk 3
March 13, 1987 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
List | Previous | Next | Series: Bendowa
Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
0:00
Question 5: Concentration, samadhi, is one of the three learnings. Meditation, dhyana, is one of the six paramitas. Both of them are learned and practiced by all bodhisattvas from the beginning of their religious life, regardless of whether they are bright or dull-witted. The zazen you now preach would probably be included here as well. On what grounds do you say that the right dharma of the Tathagata is concentrated in zazen?
Answer 5: Your question is evoked because the appellation “Zen sect” has been given to the right dharma eye, the incomparable and great Dharma that is the Tathagata’s one great mother. Bear this well in mind: the appellation “Zen sect” is met with in China eastward, it is not known in India. When the great teacher Bodhidharma was at the Shaolin Monastery of Songshan (Mount Song) doing zazen facing a wall for nine years, the priests and laymen there, not knowing yet of the Buddha’s right dharma, initially said he was an Indian monk who placed special emphasis on zazen. Afterward, for generation after generation, each of the patriarchs devoted himself to zazen exclusively. Seeing this and not knowing the true circumstances, unthinking laymen spoke loosely of a “Zazen sect.” At present, the word za has been dropped and we speak of the Zen sect. Its essence is made clear in the recorded sayings of the patriarchs. Zazen should not be equated with the dhyana or samadhi of the six paramitas or three learnings.
It is altogether clear this is the legitimate idea of the buddha-dharma that has been directly transmitted. Many years ago, during the ceremony on Vulture Peak, the Tathagata entrusted the right dharma eye, wondrous mind of nirvana, to Mahakashyapa alone. Some among the deva multitude now present in the heavens actually witnessed the ceremony. Therefore, there is no reason for any doubt. The buddha-dharma as a matter of course is forever protected and maintained by the deva multitude. Their efforts never succumb. You may know without doubt that this zazen is the absolute way of the buddha-dharma. It is incomparable.
[…] There is a very fundamental [teaching] of Buddhism, according to the ancient Buddhism. That is the “three learnings”: precepts, wisdom, and dhyana or samadhi. Here it says in the note:
… the three forms of Buddhist learning: discipline (sīla), concentration (samadhi), and wisdom (prajña), thought to be the fundamental “studies” every Buddhist practicer must undertake.
And according to [the] structure of the Buddhist teaching I think there are three categories, so-called Tripitaka: sutra pitaka, and shastra pitaka, and also sila pitaka – the group of the sutras, the group of sila, precepts, and the group of shastra, commentary on the Buddhist scriptures. Buddhist teaching consists of those three in ancient times. [Then] in terms of Buddhist practice, Buddhism is divided into the three points that are called the three learnings: precepts, and wisdom, and samadhi.
And also with the development of Buddhism, particularly in Mahayana, we have practice of Buddhist teaching called the six paramitas. Here it says in the note:
The six “perfections” (paramita) are practices by which enlightenment can be attained: donation, precept-keeping, perseverance, assiduity, meditation, and wisdom.
“Donation” is giving, dana. Sila, precepts. And perseverance: patience or perseverance. Assiduity, that is effort, [vīrya]. And meditation, zazen, and wisdom. Those are the six paramitas, as Buddhist practice in Mahayana Buddhism.
So the question here asks, why [does] Dogen Zenji emphasize particularly zazen alone, dhyana or samadhi, separated from the rest of three learnings and rest of the six paramitas?
Because these questions are always paying attention to only one thing, so-called dhyana or samadhi, meditation, separate from the rest of the things. So [in the question] they take one, dhyana, and pay attention to it and deal with it particularly, separate from the rest of the things. So that’s why […] the question here is already questionable, because already they deal with one thing particularly, separate from others.
But strictly speaking, if you deal a practice as a whole – practice means a Buddhist practice: zazen, kinhin, or whatever – in our daily life, it is really impossible for us to separate [it] from others. Because if you do zazen, very naturally in zazen there are the rest of the [three] learnings, and the rest of the six paramitas must be there, otherwise meditation or dhyana doesn’t make sense in our daily life.
Particularly [what we call the] reality we live in from moment to moment is consciously very vague, but strictly speaking it is very clear, because all beings work together and create one thing. So it’s very clear, but intellectually it’s very vague, because it’s very difficult to analyze, to separate from others.
Our life is always going on right in the midst of that reality. Intellectually, if you explain the Buddhist practice, I think we can explain Buddhist practice as the three learnings. But this is nothing but the Buddhology – Buddhist studies. So separately you can explain what the sila is, why it is necessary for us, and also wisdom, and dhyana; you can deal with it separately. [But] that is already questionable. That’s why Dogen Zenji points out what is the significance of the zazen we do.
In the last sentence he says, “You may know without doubt that this zazen is the absolute way of the buddha-dharma.” In the original text it’s called zen do. Zen means integrated, or complete, or whole. And do is a way, or sometimes utterance – but way is fine. So, what would you say, the integrated way or the whole way of the buddha-dharma. That means the whole spirit of the buddha-dharma, the integrated spirit of Buddhist teaching. Not the one thing picked by somebody, or some idea picked among many Buddhist teachings.
If you research Buddha’s teaching, you can analyze the Agamas, Abhidharmas, and Avatamsaka Sutras, Madhyamakas, and many teachings there. But Dogen Zenji tries to present the whole or integrated spirit of the Buddha’s teaching, which has been handed down from generation to generation. That is a key point. That’s why Dogen Zenji says the point which he is speaking of is the integrated spirit of Buddhism, not the particular teaching called “ the Zen sect.”
So Dogen Zenji doesn’t like so much [the idea of] particular denominations. Even the Zen school, even the Buddha Mind school, whatever you say, Dogen Zenji tried to avoid a particular name, the appellation called “Zen sect,” et cetera, because he constantly presents the total picture, the whole spirit of Buddha’s teaching. That’s why finally his teaching must go back to Buddha’s teaching, what the Buddha’s teaching is like.
In his answer, he mentions from where the appellation “Zen sect” comes. [He says that] since Bodhidharma came to China and practiced zazen at the Shaolin temple for nine years, people unthinkingly or not knowing the true circumstances put a certain name on the teaching of Bodhidharma, called “Zazen sect” or “Zen sect,” because Bodhidharma always was sitting. That is very clear, because the many recorded sayings of patriarchs already [spoke] about this. So the name of “Zen sect” is based on very – what would you say – not stable resources, not definite or clear resources.
Many among the ignorant people put a name on it. For instance, in the United States we say “Zen student”: because you do zazen, and study zazen and Zen Buddhism, that’s why people call you “Zen student.” That is naturally people put the name on you. But it doesn’t come from a definite and clear resource.
So that’s why Dogen Zenji says here, “At present the word za has been dropped and we speak of ‘Zen sect.’ Its essence is made clear in the recorded sayings of the patriarchs.” [This] zazen shouldn’t be equated with the dhyana or samadhi of the six paramitas or three learnings, because [that] is just a teaching in words, talking about what the Buddhist practice is. And so the Buddhist practice is separated or divided into three points, sila, wisdom, and dhyana, but that dhyana is completely different from the dhyana Dogen Zenji [talks about], because the dhyana Dogen Zenji [talks about] implicates or brings on the total, whole spirit of the Buddha’s teaching, including wisdom, sila, and dhyana. If you practice dhyana, very naturally you can bring on the precepts and [wisdom]. In other words precepts and wisdom should be included.
It goes without saying that it is necessary for us to practice sila or precepts – of course it is necessary. But if you practice sila or precepts, precepts shouldn’t be separate from dhyana or wisdom. The practice of sila should be backed by wisdom and dhyana, meditation, otherwise sila doesn’t make sense, or sila doesn’t work in our everyday life. If we practice sila in our everyday life, very naturally, wisdom and dhyana should be included.
So constantly the dhyana that Dogen Zenji presents [is] zazen as a whole.
21:47
And also next […] he emphasizes the primary events […] of Buddhist meditation in the ancient time when Shakyamuni Buddha was alive. He says:
It is altogether clear this is the legitimate idea of the buddha-dharma that has been directly transmitted. Many years ago, during the ceremony on Vulture Peak, the Tathagata entrusted the right dharma eye, wondrous mind of nirvana, to Mahakashyapa alone.
Well, you know this story pretty well. I think in the note he says:
On Vulture Peak, Brahma came and implored the Buddha to preach for the benefit of sentient beings. The Buddha held out a lotus flower before the assembly of devas and men, but none of them understood him except Mahakashyapa, who smiled. Then the Buddha exclaimed, “I have the right Dharma eye, the wondrous mind of nirvana. This I entrust to you, Kashyapa.” According to the Zen school, this marks the beginning of the Zen transmission. This account, together with those telling of the dharma transmission up to Hui Neng, may be found in the Lianteng Huiyao (聯燈會要).
So it is said that story is the beginning of Zen dharma transmissions.
[…] In other words, Dogen Zenji tried to give historical proof. If we don’t understand something now, I think we should learn the historical proof – we have to follow the historical events. In other words, I mentioned the other day that we have to emulate the historical customs […] fabricated by humans.
[For example], if you want to be a barber, very naturally you have to imitate what the ancestors did; you have to emulate and imitate the practice presented by ancestors. This is called learning; we have to learn something. […] Because even though you think about [being a barber] with your intellectual sense, you don’t understand what [being a] barber means, how people trust you as a barber. We don’t understand it. So finally, if you want to command respect from people, you have to follow the ancestors’ way, and emulate it, and practice. [Then] naturally people trust you, and naturally people call you barber.
So that’s why Dogen Zenji returned to the beginning of the history, the beginning of dharma transmission in the Zen tradition. That’s why he says it like this.
And also he says:
Some among the Deva multitude now present in the heavens actually witnessed the ceremony.
It means there are many devas [and] there are some devas who participated in that ceremony in ancient time. Can you believe [it]? [He chuckles.] Deva means guardians, and gods … divine entities, something like that.
According to Buddha’s eye, I think eternal time is nothing but the moment. So from this point, I think it is possible for us to see the devas […] who participated in that ceremony and exist in this world. Well, practically speaking, I think that spirit of the Buddha transmitted to Mahakasyapa has been existent from the ancient time up to now, transmitted from from one ancestor to another. So very naturally, Mahakasyapa knows what the significance of the Buddha’s teaching is, and then Ananda became the successor of Mahakasyapa, who knows exactly the significance of Buddha’s teaching. So from generation to generation, each ancestor accepted [and] received the true significance of the Buddha’s teaching. So from this point, I think we still know. Even [in the] 21st century, I think somebody knows what what the true significance of Buddha’s teaching is. [So] I think we can participate. [That means] we can prove that ceremony is really true, saying [so] from the depth of spiritual life, very naturally. So from this point I think our practice should be protected, or watched over, by many devas, many guardians, and many sentient beings. Otherwise, you cannot continue to practice.
So that’s why Dogen Zenji [says] here:
Some among the deva multitude now present in the heavens actually witnessed the ceremony. Therefore there is no reason for any doubt. The Buddha Dharma as a matter of course is forever protected and maintained by the deva multitude. Their efforts never slacken.
Constantly […] our practice is protected, maintained by many sentient beings, devas, et cetera. That’s why we can continue to practice from generation to generation.
Well, the same applies to everyday life, you know. Your life is still going because your life is protected, maintained by many beings. Historically or presently, right now or in the future, many beings try to protect your life and maintain it. Without this, you cannot live in this world now.
So, very naturally, if you want to transmit your life, how sublime it is, I think you have to see your life not separate from other beings, but your life regarded as the integrated spirit of the universe. And then, you can transmit your life – how sublime, how respectful your life is. You can transmit it to the next generations.
It is not a matter of discussion intellectually, but [rather] it is matter of practice: taking care of [your life], dealing with your life as a whole spirit of the universe. And then, you really transmit your life to the next generations.
33:16
So very naturally, Dogen Zenji [states] in the beginning of Bendowa […] the key point of the zazen we are practicing. In the first paragraph, Dogen Zenji says:
Buddha Tathagatas all have a wondrous means, which is unexcelled and free from human agency, for transmitting the wondrous Dharma from one to another without alteration, and realizing supreme and complete awakening. That it is only transmitted without deviation from Buddha to Buddha is due to the jijiyu samadhi, which is its touchstone.
So the zazen we do is based on jijiyu samadhi. I think [there is an] explanation here [in the note]:
Jijiyu means that the awakened one “receives” (ju) and “uses” (yu) the joy of awakening “in himself” (ji). Jijiyu samadhi (自受用三昧) thus refers to the samadhi in which this is realized and sustained. It is said Shakyamuni was immersed in the joy of enlightenment following his attainment.
[In] jijiyu samadhi, literally ji is the self. Ju is “to receive,” and yu of jijiyu is “to use.” And samadhi is samadhi.
So from this point, I think the jijiyu samadhi means … the self receives the self, and gives life to it, and … settles in the self. That is samadhi – samadhi is “settles the self in the self.” Samadhi is to dwell in dharma, to dwell in the truth, to dwell in the universe – this is samadhi. We say “concentration,” but samadhi is to dwell in the dharma, dwell in the truth, dwell in the true state of existence. So jijiyu samadhi is “the self becomes the self, gives life to it, and settles in the self.” That is jijiyu samadhi.
One of the most famous Zen teachers in Japan, Sawaki Roshi, [uses] a very simple [phrase]: he says zazen is that “the self becomes [the] self [and] is self-ing.” […] “Is selfing”means giving life to the self. That self is not something dead; it’s always alive. That is called “to use.” So the self becomes the self and is selfing, and settles in the self. That is zazen, he [says].
So when you do zazen, you become you, and you are you-ing, and settle in you, exactly. That you is not the idea of the you who feels or who experiences something – [it is] before your feeling, before your experience. Okay? Which means exactly oneness between the zazen and you. And then after oneness, you can say “I feel” or “I experience.” But before this [is] the very first moment of jumping into zazen. And then you say, “Ah, zazen” – that is already feeling or experience, but that is not the real self. That self is very shaky, because it’s very easily distracted by feeling and experience.
So that is the jijiyu samadhi.
Obaku Zen master asked Nansen, “If dhyana and wisdom are equated, you can see into the buddha-nature. How is it? Can you tell me about this teaching?” And then Nansen said, “I have nothing to depend on for twenty-four hours.” It means dhyana and wisdom – well, including sila, okay? – if dhyana and wisdom are equated, [that is,] used equally by the practicer, then we can see into the buddha-nature. How about this principle, this teaching? And then [Nansen] says, “I have nothing to depend on for twenty-four hours.”
But this is still a little bit the dualistic world, because there is a person who doesn’t depend on anything for twenty-four hours, and also there are the dhyana and wisdom which are not depended on by him. And also there is time, so-called twenty-four hours, during which he never depends on anything. So it’s still dualistic, okay? If I say “I have nothing to depend on,” immediately the person who doesn’t depend on anything is there, and simultaneously I have something I don’t depend on. And simultaneously there is a time: for certain a period of time, I don’t depend on. And also a place, which lets those things exist. So lots of the dualistic sense there.
[Tape change.]
… to see the buddha-nature is to maintain equally dhyana and wisdom. So to see Buddha, to see into the buddha-nature […] means that your life must be alive as a whole, vividly. According to Dogen’s term it is called jijiyu samadhi. Jijiyu samadhi is that the self becomes the self and gives life to it and settles in the self. That means the self must be really alive, vividly, in zazen – before any separation between.
That means zazen is exactly something like a leaping fish, always working. So self is also working together vividly. So to see into buddha-nature means you have to deal with your zazen, you have to deal with your mind and body, which are both working, alive, vividly.
So it is how we work. It is just like if you sit down [in] zazen, I think you can see the mind, you can see the distractions, because the mind is pretty easily distracted by continuous change, by the events which are changing constantly. But the basic nature of the constant change is not something distracting you, because the original nature of change means nothing to attach to, nothing to hold. Because if I say, “ah” – this is “ah,” some event. That nature of “ah” sound or event is nothing – no root. So that’s why in one moment the event occurs, in the next moment it disappears.
According to human consciousness, [we] immediately pick up that form of event and then attach to it – but basically, it’s always moving, so you cannot grasp it. So very naturally consciousness feels sad, or pensive – or melancholy, or despair. Pretty pensive, because [it’s] unsatisfactory, very naturally.
And then if we say, “all sentient beings are impermanent,” we don’t like impermanence. But impermanence means constant change. Constant change is not pessimistic. You have to understand impermanence, you have to see into the true meaning of impermanence and constant change pretty deeply.
So the original nature of the constant change is completely transparent. So, nothing to feel. So very naturally what you have to do is, in whatever situation, in whatever time, or in whatever moment, in whatever event – all we have to do is just face it, and deal with it … and go.
So how do we take care of consciousness, which seems to be easily distracted by events which are changing constantly? A koan mentions that is just like a baby’s mind, [or] like throwing a ball into the stream of a swift river. So as soon as possible you have to deal with zazen, and breathing, and the mind. And then, you have to go. But when you see the mind and the breathing which are distracted by constant change, immediately you try to judge or be critical toward it, or stay with it, so very naturally, mind always stays in the stream. But actually you cannot. So that’s why finally we are very confused.
So jijiyu samadhi is exactly that you have to live vividly from moment to moment. Zazen is very simple circumstances, and you can really see closely and deeply what happens in the mind and your body. So all you can do is deal with them as simply as you can, because circumstances, your body, your mind, are present under very good situations. So that’s why zazen is the most important thing.
So zazen is not the same as the dhyana of the three learnings, et cetera, because you have to deal with your life as a whole. And if you do zazen, you can see the integrated spirit of the Buddha’s teaching, or integrated spirit of your life, interconnected, interpenetrated with all the universe. This is the reality you live in.
So, very naturally you need wisdom in zazen, because wisdom is… not knowledge… wisdom is resolution, or steadfast determination, coming from the depth of your heart, [saying,] “I will do.” Okay? This is wisdom. Wisdom cuts off entanglement around some event [you are faced with]. Lots of entanglements there, and then wisdom cuts off those entanglements, and then immediately: “I will do.” That is wisdom. But understanding, knowledge, is always analyzing, trying to understand what the entanglements are, and how can we cut off that stuff, using techniques. That is knowledge. But wisdom is exactly cut off, right now: “Yes, sir. I will do it.” That is wisdom. Okay? So very naturally, in zazen you need wisdom.
And also we need the precepts or disciplines. When you do zazen, very naturally there are lots of procedures you have to go through: postures, breathing, and also your mind, and circumstances, and meals, sleep… There are lots of complicated procedures you have to go through. And then, nevertheless, your body, your mind, shouldn’t be distracted. How? You can maintain your mind and maintain your breath, in peace and harmony, by your wisdom, and dhyana, and sila, beyond your speculation. This is called jijiyu samadhi. Dogen Zenji says zazen is jijiyu samadhi.
And then we chant Jijiyu Zanmai in the noon service. That is the contents or quality of jijiyu samadhi: what happens in jijiyu samadhi’s world. So Dogen Zenji talks about jijiyu samadhi, what’s going on in the world of jijiyu samadhi. It’s really amazing. You don’t believe it, but it is just like an orchestra. If you [recite] that Jijiyu Zanmai at the noon service, I think you’re always creating a big orchestra, music. Many beings are there creating a wonderful musical world. So that is contents or quality of jijiyu samadhi, if you do zazen. That’s why if you do zazen even for a moment with sincere heart, with wholeheartedness, there are [rewards] exactly, there is progress there.
55:17
So number six, almost the same question:
Question 6: Why should Buddhists advocate Zen meditation, relying on sitting alone, among the four attitudes – going, standing, sitting, lying – for entering realization?
Answer 6: It wouldn’t be possible to investigate thoroughly the way in which Buddhas one after another from long in the past have practiced and entered realization. If you seek a reason for their having done this, you should know it is simply because it is the way employed by Buddhists. Reasons shouldn’t be sought elsewhere. Yet patriarchs have extolled it, saying that zazen in itself is the dharma gate of repose and joy. In truth, is this not because among the four attitudes, sitting is joyful bliss? Indeed, this is not the way of practice of one or two buddhas, it is the way of all buddhas and all patriarchs.
Anyway, from generation to generation, all buddhas, all ancestors, have practiced this zazen, jijiyu zanmai samadhi, and transmitted it from generation to generation. There is no space to poke our head [into] why they did it, because it is a fact, it is reality. Because zazen is to experience straightforwardly repose and bliss, right in the middle of zazen. “Repose and bliss” means you have to become you as you are exactly, and you are you-ing. Okay? You are you-ing is that there is nothing to deal with, or you are not carried away by anything, or you don’t carry away anything. So you are you-ing means you do, exactly. You become what you are, and you are you-ing, and that means you settle yourself in the self, including the whole universe. At that time, you can really settle in the self. That is called repose and bliss.
That is completely beyond, before you think, before you feel, before you experience. But we are always hanging around the experience or feeling. Always we [say], “How do you feel? Do you like it?” or “How are you feeling? You don’t like it?” We are always talking about what kind of experience you [had]. That is important, but the most important point is that you have to see deeply into that buddha-nature. Buddha-nature means before you feel or you experience, put yourself in buddha-nature’s world. And then, many worlds are coming up. That is nothing but activity in dynamism, from moment to moment. Just like throwing away a ball into the stream of swift waters, constantly. What is that? It’s not an idea, it’s not a matter of discussion. You have to do it. It’s really total activities. It’s peace, which is peace and also dynamism.
[To do] zazen is exactly [to experience this]. So if you do zazen, that sitting is not separate from walking and standing and sleeping. It’s exactly the same as; including all. Because prior to having an idea of the four activities, so-called sleeping, sitting, et cetera, […] you have to put yourself in buddha-nature’s world. The idea of the four activities – sitting and sleeping, et cetera – is the idea of the conceptual world. So that is many feelings coming up, many experiences coming up.
So that’s why here it says no particular reason why we we shouldn’t have zazen, exactly. So here it says, “Yet patriarchs have extolled it, saying that zazen in itself is the dharma gate of repose and joy.” This is the essential art of zazen.
Do you have questions about this?
1:01:51
Question: Hojo-san?
Katagiri Roshi: Hai.
Questioner: Why is jijiyu samadhi referred to as “self-enjoyment samadhi”?
Katagiri Roshi: I don’t know how to say it, it’s pretty difficult to translate it, but joy itself, joyfulness means exactly in whatever situation you may be, whatever time you may be, in whatever events may occur, anyway you must [be] host of yourself, you must you must be master of yourself.
So that means what? It is not something you can get from outside; it is in you. And then from that, you can really feel a kind of joy. It is not exactly joy, but something [like] joy. So that’s why it says “self-joyfulness.”
Well, literally, I think [what] I mentioned already is better than “self-joyfulness.” For me.
1:03:28
Question: Hojo-san? But then there’s got to be some way of appreciating that. They always say, it’s happening beyond your perceptions, beyond your comprehension, beyond your experience. But if all my experience is telling me my body is sitting there in pain in zazen, then reality to me is the pain. And if at some higher level or whatever this is happening, unless there’s some way of appreciating that, then of what… I mean, if you don’t know you’re in that state, then you aren’t benefiting from it.
Katagiri Roshi: It’s not a “higher level.” The “beyond your experience” is not something higher level, separate from you, from the reality you know. Because you are already there, otherwise you cannot experience anything. So “before experience” [or] “you have to settle in the self prior to feeling or experience” doesn’t mean to ignore the reality, from which you feel pain, et cetera. The point is, how do you deal with that reality. Do you want to stay with the reality, with torment, for [a long time]? Or do you want to deal with reality […] straightforwardly, just like water running – so deal with it, leave it. [That’s kind of the same], but a different world is coming up. Is that clear?
For instance, I’m sitting here, and then I feel pain. And then the trouble is that we always stay with the pain which occurs through our experience, and then we attach to the experience, and stay with it, and add the psychological … trouble, psychological stuff to it: “I hate it!” That is affective preferences; you always [add your] psychological affections to it. That’s why it’s very difficult to leave there. You see the pain, and then you add the psychological problem to it, so it’s very difficult to leave as soon as possible. Because the emotional activity is very sticky, very sticky.
So as [best] as you can, you have to deal with the pain, and take care of it, and leave. That is most important for us. It’s not necessary to ignore – you cannot ignore reality. The question is, how much you stay with it, how quick you can pass by.
That is activity. Your practice.
Questioner: Hojo-san, what about our conditioning, though? Like I’ve heard some people say, “just let go,” like it’s a real easy thing to do, when actually all your conditioning of conventional reality is overwhelming. How do you “just let go”?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, well it may be overwhelming – it depends. The feeling of overwhelming is completely different for an individual. For instance, sitting like this, somebody feels “that’s overwhelming,” “that’s pretty hard.” But someone says “it’s all right, pretty easy, just sitting,” you know? So what do you mean, “overwhelming”? It’s different for a different person. The evaluation is different.
So overwhelming is fine, if you think that, but it is not exactly overwhelming. That’s why if you think it’s overwhelming, fine, but still there is the opportunity to take a deep breath from overwhelming. So let it go.
But if you think “it’s overwhelming,” immediately you are bogged down with the idea of overwhelming. So that’s why it’s very difficult to be free from it.
1:09:03
Question: Is jijiyu samadhi a different state than, for example, shikantaza?
Katagiri Roshi: Same.
Questioner: Same?
Katagiri Roshi: Same. But jijiyu samadhi is [the] contents of shikantaza. If you do shikantaza, very naturally shikantaza is presented as presented as jijiyu samadhi. That is the quality of shikantaza.
Questioner: And then jijiyu samadhi, is it different than Ocean Seal Samadhi?
Katagiri Roshi: That is a different term. Ocean Seal Samadhi is a little bit more philosophical: according to the Avatamsaka Sutra, explaining how the world is existent, and how the world is structured, reflecting and interpenetrated, interconnected. That is the Ocean Seal Samadhi. So everything becomes already in the Ocean Seal Samadhi, we can say. Ocean Seal Samadhi means all sentient beings – trees, birds, winter, clouds and skies – all are interpenetrated, under the illumination of Vairochana Buddha.
So from this point, already the trees are what they ought to be, and the winter is what it ought to be. So, there is no space to discuss “I like” or “I don’t like.” Winter is winter. And the trees are trees. Snow is snow. Like this. That [is the meaning of] Ocean Seal Samadhi.
Questioner: So you can experience that and be experiencing jijiyu samadhi at the same time?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Well, actually, we have to experience [it]. “We have to experience” means we have to taste that Ocean Seal Samadhi in zazen. Okay? And then it is called jijiyu samadhi.
1:11:57
Question: I was trying to phrase another question, and it has to do with letting go into this other state, which, if that’s supposed to be perfect peace, then it seems like that shouldn’t be experienced as threat or anxiety, it should be self-evident that that’s peace. But, say if your body is sitting in zazen and pain, and you’re trying to let go of that, but that letting go is perceived as threat and anxiety, then that’s not peace. I mean, it seems like that samadhi state should be self-evident if it’s there. I’m not sure if I’m phrasing it exactly the way I want to.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, you are talking about almost the same [thing] as I mentioned Obaku Zen Master asking questions to Nansen. Obaku Zen Master says, “If wisdom and samadhi are equated, you can see into the buddha-nature. How about this teaching?” And then Nansen says, “I have nothing to depend on for [twenty-four] hours.” But I said about this, “Well, what do you mean, ‘I have nothing to depend on’?” Because “nothing to depend on” means to trying to reach a higher level of existence, beyond reality, beyond the feeling or experience? So that is “nothing to depend on for [twenty-four] hours,” but that means we are already juggling the twenty-four hours I have been not depending on – this is the time, already. And also, there is a person who has been not depending on anything; so here is a person. And also, the particular things I don’t depend for twenty-four hours. So already three things: a person, and things, and also time. And also place; and also many conditional elements there. So finally we are playing [with this,] juggling with this.
So finally, what do you mean, not to depend on anything for twenty-four hours? You constantly have to discuss [this]. But a question is, “zazen is a dharma gate of repose and bliss” means if you sit down, please sit down. Empty your head. Please sit down right now, in peace and harmony. That is simultaneously repose and bliss, before you think.
But immediately consciousness poke in its head, and then it’s not peace, it’s not repose and bliss already. So, where is the higher level, before you think or you feel or you experience? Where is it? It’s activity: please, sit down, right now, in peace. That’s it. That is dealing with your life as a whole, so-called integrated spirit of your life […] with the universe. So that is […] just activity there.
Is that clear? No?
Someone: Excuse me, Hojo-san?
Katagiri Roshi: Excuse me. Is that alright? Do you understand what I mentioned? You’re always juggling.
Questioner: Yeah…
Katagiri Roshi: Here is a higher level of experience, spiritual life, before you feel, and it’s already separated.
Questioner: It’s just the point I’m making is like, we can create so much struggle, and it just seems like if there’s struggle here and there’s peace there, it would be perfectly natural to choose peace, so why do always I choose struggle, and yet people seem to cling to the struggle side rather than the peace side.
Katagiri Roshi: Because you think peace doesn’t exist in the struggling. But, where is the peace? Right in the middle of struggling, there is still opportunity to have peace.
Questioner: If you can see that, yeah.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, you can do it! For instance, I said, struggling, sitting here, now I feel pain. Okay? And then I struggle with sitting zazen now, and then I feel pain pain pain pain… just that is struggling for me. Where is the peace? No peace, you know? But please, stop it. [He laughs.] Even for a moment, sit down, please. Take a deep breath, and forget it, and sit. Even for a moment. There is peace.
So “right in the middle of struggling there is peace”: what do [I] mean, peace? Stop it. “Stop it” means please sit down right now. Put it aside – all ideas, and entanglements, et cetera, many things – put it aside, and please sit down right now. There is peace.
So peace is not something different from the struggling you do. Is that okay?
Questioner: Well, I think I understand the point you’re trying to make, but I don’t think that I can always see that for myself.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. So from now, you should taste it. Okay? If you understand it, you have to taste it. Even for a moment, you can do it.
So you do always, and […] lots of stuff coming up in your head, and then finally you [say,] “Aw, forget it,” and close your eyes, and take a deep breath, and stand up quietly. That’s it. Or you say, “I want to go to nature, which is a quiet place.” So you can do it. Or, on the street, you know, noise coming up and the people scream at you… and then, how do you keep the peace, you know? Just take a breath. Return to yourself, and just walk. [He chuckles.] You [can’t] meddle with those complicated [things] on the street.
So if you understand even intellectually, next you have to taste it.
Any other questions?
1:20:15
Question: If we taste it, why do we forget it?
Katagiri Roshi: If you taste it, naturally you can forget it.
[Some chuckles.]
“Forget” means forget the distracted state of mind. Forget [the] stuff.
Someone: I don’t think that’s quite what you meant, is it?
Katagiri Roshi: Is that what you mean?
Questioner: Um, I don’t hear the answer… If you sense what it is to let go, how come in another situation you don’t even recall that you had that sense in this situation?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm, I don’t understand. Would you say it again?
Questioner: If you see something, if you recognize the self, why do you lose it?
Katagiri Roshi: Is that something wrong with it? “Lose it” means… It’s not lose. “Forget” doesn’t mean losing completely.
What do you mean? For instance, if you taste this situation, you mean why the rest of things should be forgotten?
Questioner: I’m like trying to hold on to it?
Someone: I think he’s more saying, why do we forget our samadhi place? Why do we forget that peaceful zazen place, when we are off in our day-to-day life, and we chase after other kinds of solutions, and we don’t take the backward step, to zazen.
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, oh, I see. Well I think one [reason] is that human beings have been tamed for many, many years to deal with human life and circumstances just like that, by our consciousness. By our customs, and education – in a dualistic way. We always deal with [things] in that way. So we are always dealing with the world after, after [it is] created [by consciousness]. We deal with the world created by consciousness, not before. We always forget; we have forgotten already. But [we carry it] on our back already. Not “back”: as a whole personality. We have [that] already. But we don’t pay attention to it. So we always pay attention to the world created by consciousness – that means the world of conceptualizations.
So for many, many years, we have been tamed – by education, and customs, and habits, and like this. So it’s pretty hard. We have almost forgotten this original first stage of the world. So that’s why we have to come back. That is our practice, spiritual practice.
Is that okay?
Questioner: Yeah.
1:25:09
Question: Roshi? So, it seems like in your presentation, the discussion seems to be talking about integrated activity versus conceptualization. We won’t talk about dhyana separated, but you describe the activity of zazen […] But I don’t hear you saying anything that makes the activity of zazen different than the activity of bowing, different than the activity of walking, or chanting. I don’t hear you explain why we only do zazen.
Katagiri Roshi: And that’s why zazen is a form of zazen. If you see the zazen in terms of form, […] there are many other forms opposed to zazen forms. But the jijiyu samadhi is the contents of that form of zazen, or quality of zazen. That is called activity, very undefiled activities. That is a point Dogen Zenji talks about.
And then, if you do zazen like this, very naturally you can touch the quality of zazen regarded as a form. That quality is universal. Even though you walk, and you sit, and you stand, I think there is [that quality], that is very universal. And then from that universal state, I think according to the conditional situation, it appears as a certain form – sometimes standing, sometimes walking, something like that. There are many forms, but I think they must be supported by something more than form. That is called undefiled activity, or practice. So-called emptiness, we say – “Form is emptiness, emptiness is form,” in Prajnaparamita [Sutra].
So if you see the world in terms of the form, there are many different [things], because each form has different characteristics. So sitting is sitting…
[Tape change.]
… how do you give a quality to the form of standing when you do it? That is most important. So that is, you have to give a quality to the form of standing, so-called jijiyu samadhi. That’s it. And then, at that time, standing is exactly the spirit of zazen.
So from this point, zazen, standing – same thing. But according to the form, they are different, so you cannot mix them up. You have to deal with standing as standing.
Questioner: But it sounds to me still like we’re obsessed with the form of sitting. You know? Instead of samadhi, we’re obsessed with the form of sitting.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, so the form of sitting – because the form of sitting is a pretty simple form, and also circumstances are simple. So that’s why circumstances, and also physically and mentally, and time and place, and many things – we try to make adjustment of all things, and then sit down. So that’s why sitting is a very simple form.
Questioner: Some people think kinhin or bowing is more simple.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, in this kind of […] circumstances, bowing and standing is of course simple practice. But sitting is exactly the inside of your body, and organs, and breathing, all are working together. But if you deal with bowing, I think you have to bow [in] certain activities, standing. It’s apparently not still. So quite different. [While] sitting is completely quiet, but in the realm of the stillness, you can see the lots of activities there. So very naturally, sitting is a particular form from which we can see many things, more than other forms. So that’s why sitting is handed down from generation to generation.
Someone: Roshi? What about someone who can’t sit – who is paralyzed, and can only lie down?
Katagiri Roshi: Lying down is fine. Lying down, or sitting on a chair.
Questioner: What you just said, you could say the same thing for bowing, or chanting. That form has its own special characteristic, which makes it unique, even though the activity is common.
Katagiri Roshi: I think through the zazen form you have to taste that jijiyu samadhi exactly, and then you can make the standing form or the walking form really alive; you appreciate it. So that’s why we do it.
It’s penetrated into all other forms. For instance, if you experience samadhi from the form of skiing: of course […] you can experience the same samadhi, but it’s pretty hard to extend it into every other form. We understand it, but everyday life is very complicated. So I think that’s why the jijiyu samadhi which you can experience through sitting meditation is very valuable and [respected], handed down from generation to generation.
Questioner: I don’t question the value, I just question why is it overemphasized, that form.
Katagiri Roshi: It’s not “over emphasized.” [He laughs, and the group laughs.] Not overemphasized. If you don’t like it, you can do anything.
That’s why we say, if you want to go ski, you can go ski. If you want to be a sportsman, you can be a sportsman. And then through the sport, you can learn samadhi. So why don’t you go there? You know?
But we are talking about the integrated spirit of the whole world, okay? Not only the particular area, so-called sports, or art, et cetera. We don’t ignore [those], but we are always talking about the integrated spirit of the whole universe; your life as the whole universe. And then, how do you see this? Finally, you have to sit down.
In other words – if you don’t believe [that] I am not overemphasizing how important the zazen form is. Even if you don’t have any idea of zazen or standing, et cetera: if you drive yourself completely into a corner where you can’t move an inch – that means a dead end – what do you do?
People naturally sit down.
People don’t run. People don’t walk. Finally, they sit down. That’s it. That is a form you can see right in the middle of a dead end in which you cannot move. That’s natural.
And then from that sitting, then they can feel many things. That is a dead end, but simultaneously still they feel the beginning of the world. So still they feel something. And also, […] they can taste themselves.
So, for instance, after the Second World War, the war prisoners were in prison camps in Japan or elsewhere, and then Aitken Roshi was very impressed by the Japanese prisoners who sat in zazen in jail. [He laughs.] Most of the Japanese prisoners sat in jail, because there is nothing to do, and no help for them, and no hope. But still they have hope, et cetera; but nothing to do. Where should they go? They don’t know. [Is it confusion]? No, it’s more than confusion. Is it happiness? No, something more than happiness. Unhappiness? Something more than unhappiness. So, nothing to do there. That is really a dead end. And then, they can sit.
And then that sitting really gives some suggestions to others. So Aitken Roshi was really impressed by those people who sat, [even though] they didn’t say anything about [it].
So that is natural. Particularly when you have to see the core of the whole universe, and how the universe is structured, how the universe is working together with all sentient beings – how do you [do] that? It’s pretty hard.
But still you can participate, so [it’s] pretty close. That’s why through the sports, through the arts… still artists try to express that beauty of the universe through their form. So still [there is] opportunity for them to come near, to taste the integrated spirit of human life as the universe.
[Long silence.]
Okay? [He laughs, and someone else laughs.]
You are lucky, anyway.
Questioner: Yeah?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah. Because still you can you can have lots of choice, looking around, and talking about zazen, talking about standing, talking about sitting. [He laughs.] You are lucky, but I don’t know how much you are lucky! Lucky is not always lucky, you know? [Sometimes] it is a cause of confusion.
But in a sense we are lucky, because we have lots of choices. [We can] look around… “go shopping.” [He laughs.] But sometimes human life must be seen from… the emergency case? Where there is no choice. And then, you can really see it.
But we still have to respect individual lives in their own characteristics, okay? Personality, and capacities… And then, if you want to go somewhere to do something as a sportsman, as a mountain climber, of course we can encourage them to do that.