Shobogenzo Bendowa: Dogen's Questions & Answers – Talk 5
March 15, 1987 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
0:00
I would like to explain a little more about the [word] realization [that] Dogen Zenji uses very often here: practice and realization. I don’t know how you understand what realization is. I think this is my problem, how to translate this term in English. Well, English always uses realization, but I don’t know how you understand this [word].
But Dogen uses three kinds of satori, enlightenment. One is awareness – kaku, “awakening.” Second is satori – usually “enlightenment.” Third is sho. […] Literally it means “verification” or “proof.” Literally, okay?
So three kinds of terms are often used by Dogen, but in this case, practice and realization is the third one (sho). Realization is corresponding to the third one – “proof” or “verification,” literally translated. But I am still looking for the appropriate term in English; I don’t know what kind of English [word] is best, so I have to explain a little bit about this one.
[This enlightenment is] sho in Japanese. Plainly speaking, sho literally means “proof” or “certification”; this is also sho. [To certify], or to prove, or to verify, or to witness. Sho in Chinese… maybe [Morton] knows pretty well. Anyway, sho.
The first one and second one, kaku (awakening) or satori, both are something experienced, something which you can experience through the six senses. But sho, translated as realization, is a little more than that which you can experience or you can awaken. So [it has] a little deeper meaning, rather than kaku, awakening, or satori, enlightenment.
So I don’t know how to translate it, but maybe we can say sho, translated literally as verification or witness, means “actualizing the consummation of being.” Consummation [of being], [the] ultimate nature of being.
So “consummation of being” – how can I say it – is a place where everything synchronizes with each other. Well, according to [what Buddha says], I think [whether] animate being or inanimate being, all [were] simultaneously enlightened when he attained enlightenment. Or, he said, “I and the heaven and earth […] are the same and one root, where all living beings attain enlightenment simultaneously.” So that is a consummation of being. Consummation of the ultimate nature of being is the same and one place where everything coexists in peace.
Buddhist terminology uses very often nyoze or jissō. Nyoze means “thusness.” Jissō (実相) is also translated thusness, [or] “true reality.” Jissō is literally “true mark.” True mark means true reality.
In nyoze, nyo is “like” or “thus” – “look like.” But in Zen Buddhism, nyo means “look like” but on the other hand nyo is direct manifestation of something ultimate. That is called nyo.
So Dogen Zenji says in Genjokoan, “birds fly like a bird, fish swim like fish.” That means exactly fish become one with the water, and birds’ activities are completely identical with the function of the air and sky, all sentient beings. At that time, we can say birds are not birds, birds are sky. So that is called, Dogen Zenji says, “Birds fly like a bird.” Because it’s pretty hard to say it is bird, because it is sky, it is air – without this situation, a bird cannot fly in the sky. So bird can fly means to be supported by air and sky and clouds and all sentient beings, and then the life of birds is supported. That is called to be able to fly, for a bird. So that we can live is [because our life is supported] by many beings. At that time, Katagiri lives like Katagiri. Not exactly Katagiri – at that time, Katagiri becomes exactly jijiyu samadhi. [Or] buddha.
So that is, [Dogen Zenji] said, nyo. The Chinese character is called nyo, of nyo ze. Nyo is “thus” or “look like,” but it means pointing out exactly consummation of being. That is nyo.
Because it’s pretty hard to say: if you’re really alive in this world, creating peace and harmony, you are you, you look like you, but you are not you, you are something more than you. You yourself don’t know how you can get [this] energy. From the small five skandhas? No. You don’t know [how], if you really live in peace and harmony with all sentient beings. Very naturally you can feel this. So […] it’s pretty hard to explain who you are, where you can get such a kind of energy, et cetera. So we call it nyo.
Ze is “this.” That nyo, “thusness,” is something existent right now, right here. That is called this. So nyoze is translated as thusness, or suchness sometimes. So nyoze is what is, just is, of itself.
So that is the place where all living beings coexist in peace, and … synchronize with each other in peace and harmony. That is sho, “realization.”
So that sho, the consummation of being, is not [something] you try to manifest. No, you cannot do it, because this is exactly the ultimate state of existence. You don’t know [it]. But the unique way is to let it manifest by virtue of making your water clear or calm. Or, practically speaking, you really devote yourself to do something thoroughly, with sincere heart, exactly do it: then, the consummation of being comes out, emerges from [that] naturally. That is our practice.
But we always try to get that truth or consummation of being. We try to get it. That’s why we say, “By practice, let’s attain enlightenment.” That makes you more confused. It’s pretty hard to get such enlightenment. Of course you can attain enlightenment, but that enlightenment is the first or second enlightenment I mentioned: kaku or satori. Still kaku and satori are nothing but a human experience, limited by individualities. So it’s not universal. Universal enlightenment is the state of being free from individual experience called kaku, awakening, or satori. According to Buddha’s term, it is called nirvana. Nirvana. So nirvana corresponds to sho: proof, or verification.
So nirvana is a place where all kinds of experience of highest spiritual life are melted into. That is called nirvana. In other words, all kinds of the highest level of spiritual life is liberated. And then it is called nirvana. That is called total liberation.
So that’s why … even though you don’t experience this sho, the actualizing the consummation of being, even though you don’t experience the ultimate nature of existence… as best as we can, we try to approach it, we try to come near to it. In many ways – psychologically, intellectually – in many ways we try [to] see even a dim image. As close as you can, you try to approach. That is our study.
And then, […] to touch directly the ultimate nature of [your self] is your responsibility, your business. Your responsibility, so-called … flow of activities – when you are exactly in the continuous flow of activities, and then you are there, exactly. [But] consciousness always slips off this flow of activities, and analyzes, synthesizes, so that’s why it’s pretty hard to touch directly.
So that’s [where] in Fukanzazengi, […] Dogen Zenji [says], “Suppose one gains pride of understanding and influences one’s own enlightenment.” So, by zazen, you can attain awakening and enlightenment, satori, and then you are proud of yourself. Then he says, that’s fine, but, “Suppose you gain pride of understanding and influence your own enlightenment, glimpsing the wisdom that runs through all things, attaining the way and clarifying the mind, raising an aspiration to escalade the very sky.” [He laughs.] Do you understand? That always happens in the religious world. Always you really go up to the sky, pretty high. And then you completely forget to come down to earth. [Laughter.] But the more you try to stay high in the sky, impermanence … lets you fall down to the earth, and then at that time you hurt so much. [He laughs.] Because you are too high to come down, so you hurt so much.
Just like a helicopter, you know? [Laughter.] Each person is flying a helicopter, with three propellers: […] suffering and karma and also self-centeredness. The three propellers run pretty fast, and then finally, everyone can fly in the sky. Each person can fly, and then he likes it, you know? Because he [doesn’t bother himself], he always keeps himself in peace and harmony, keeping away from the people. So he tries to do many things as he likes; that’s [what] everyone does in the sky, in the world. And then – they bump into each other, by chance. And then it hurts very much, you know? Sometimes one propeller is broken and then, boom, they fall to earth, and then it hurts so much. This is suffering; always we do [this].
That’s why Dogen Zenji says here, “… raising an aspiration to escalade the very skies. One is making the initial partial excursions about the frontiers, but is still somewhat deficient in the vital way of total emancipation.” So still a little far, a little far.
So, very naturally, the important point is, […] practice must be total manifestation of ultimate nature of existence, and ultimate nature of existence is simultaneously present with your practice. Because ultimate nature of existence is not your business. It is not something you try to manifest. No. You have to arrange circumstances, [arrange] your body and mind to be in peace and harmony, and then, ultimate nature of existence comes out naturally. Like the moon comes out from the clouds. Like this.
For instance, when you do zazen, Dogen Zenji says “don’t think,” “don’t think anything good or bad, right or wrong.” And then you try to stop thinking. But the more you try to stop thinking, the more you start to think. So you cannot do it, you cannot stop thinking – because thinking is kind of energies coming from the ultimate nature of existence, so you cannot stop it. So if you want to stop, […] stop thinking is to manifest that ultimate nature of existence. At that time, thinking appears and next moment disappears, all of a sudden. So it appears, disappears, appears, disappears. If you manifest that ultimate nature of existence, very naturally [it goes] like that.
I mentioned the other day, [it’s] just like a washing machine. The washing machine is always acting, acting constantly. This is our practice. Flow of activities, flow of practice – acting. And then, we can create dirty clothes and clean waters, and then next moment dirty clothes become clean clothes, and clean water becomes dirty water. So always this is the dualistic world coming up.
So we say “dirty clothes; I don’t want them”; we want to be free from it. How do we do this? We try to get the clean water always. But you cannot do it without action. That action must be very undefiled, and also continuous. How? On your own? No. You use soap – “Tide.” That is a teaching; teaching and practical guidance, in many ways. So we have to use the teaching, and then your actions become very pure, undefiled. And then you should keep going, constantly, under all circumstances, and then create dirty clothes and clean water, dirty clothes, clean water, always working together. That is our practice.
24:10
And then, in Bendowa, Dogen Zenji mentions that zazen is jijiyu samadhi. Jijiyu samadhi is exactly the same meaning as sho: verification, or actualizing the ultimate nature of existence. That is jijiyu samadhi.
That is, in terms of practice, sho is explained as jijiyu samadhi: self becomes self, and is self-ing, and settles in the self, exactly. That is a unique way to manifest the ultimate nature of existence called sho. Very deep, deep experience of enlightenment. Very deep, profound – before you put the name on it. This is called sho.
That is perfect freedom. Perfect freedom. Perfect freedom which is free from the concept of freedom.
That’s why in the Diamond Sutra it always says, “Bodhisattvas are not bodhisattvas, therefore they are called bodhisattvas.” So if the bodhisattvas want to be real bodhisattvas, they have to be free from the concept of bodhisattvas. And then they can really live in peace and harmony, vividly, helping each other. That is a bodhisattva [as the] Diamond Sutra mentions, and Prajnaparamita mentions like this. So Dogen’s understanding is not his own understanding, it’s based on the general Buddhist teaching there.
I think many people don’t understand [that] practice and realization are one. But this is not [just] Dogen’s understanding, this is a Buddhist understanding. So I think you should keep in mind your practice like this, exactly. And from now on, you have to research your practice like this – not separate from realization. Otherwise, you never get perfect peace in your life.
If you don’t have real peace and harmony, you become always critical toward you, toward others, toward objects, so you always feel uneasy, irritated. So continually you have to train yourself based on this teaching.
For instance, here is a koan in the [Book of Serenity], and this is a pretty famous story, Case 23, “Roso Faces the Wall.” The main case says:
Attention. Whenever Roso Zen Master saw a monk coming, he would face the wall. Hearing of this, Nansen remarked, “I always tell others to receive directly even before the empty kalpa, and to realize even before the Buddha came into the world. But still I haven’t found half a man, let alone a man. If he is thus, he will be stuck in the year of the donkey.”
“The year of the donkey”: the oriental people have years of twelve animals, you know, in terms of astrology. But unfortunately the donkey doesn’t belong to the twelve animals. [He laughs, and the group laughs.] So that’s why Nansen says, “If Roso is thus” – [that is,] teaching always like this, just sitting – “he will be stuck in the year of the donkey.” [He laughs.] It means how stupid he is. Completely stupid. Perfectly stupid. Something more than wasting time. [He laughs.] Then apparently Nansen is criticizing Roso’s practice, but I don’t think so. Nansen gives a “pithy remark” to the monks who believe Roso’s teaching is wasting time. Nansen tries to wake them up.
Because, I always say, if you say that “practice is nonsense” – who is nonsense? [He laughs.] [If you say,] “zazen doesn’t matter” – zazen is always zazen. And then you say, “it’s nonsense” – you are nonsense. Don’t you thinks so? Do you understand that one?
For instance, here is Minnesota winter. You say, “I hate winter.” Well, who is hating? Where is the problem? Within the winter? Or within you? Or within heaven? Or between heaven and you? Who creates the hatred?
Well, whatever you feel – you say “I love winter,” or “I hate winter” – winter doesn’t care. When the time comes, winter comes. Vigorous Minnesota winter comes.
So if you hate winter, you already hate, so your whole life is hatred. So wherever you may go, you cannot see everything with pleasure or appreciation, because your whole body is occupied by hatred. So you always look at the world through the telescope of hatred. This is a problem.
So if you say, “it’s nonsense,” that means you are nonsense.
That’s why Nansen wakes up the monk who believes that the Roso’s practice is really nonsense, useless. That’s why he says it like this. But it is not criticizing. Okay?
Do you have some questions about this sho? So, practice and realization – otherwise it’s a little bit difficult for you to understand […] satori.
33:02
Question: Is there a progression through these? A natural progression?
Katagiri Roshi: You mean a progress?
Questioner: Do you have to analyze something before… do you have to know that you know something, before…
Katagiri Roshi: Huh? You mean analyze? You mean understanding?
Questioner: Yeah, I think I’m having a hard time describing this to you.
Someone: Is there a progression between these stages? Awareness, enlightenment, verification: is there a progression, and are those stages of growth?
Someone: So you go through one first, kaku first, then satori, […]
Katagiri Roshi: I think so. Uh-huh.
I think awakening is used in English textbooks in many ways. But generally speaking, awakening is the first experience of spiritual life through the six senses. Okay? And then enlightenment, satori, is a little deeper than awakening, penetrating. You have to experience satori […] through the body and mind. But awakening kind of comes through the consciousness; then you can awake. So awakening occurs in the conscious level, but satori occurs in the conscious and also physical levels, both. So a little deeper.
Question: But… there’s sho, even if you don’t experience kaku or satori, isn’t there?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, kaku and satori…
Question: How important are they?
Katagiri Roshi: Kaku and satori?
Question: Yeah.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, important. But people really try to hold on [to] kaku and satori, which seem to be a best experience. That’s why Dogen Zenji [says] that’s why people are proud of themselves very much. They are proud of their understanding, their own experience, but this is nothing but escalading for the sky. [He laughs.] Going up to the sky, that’s it. So that’s why under the beautiful flag of religions, we are always fighting. If you experience God, then you are proud of your experience and understanding of God, and then we become really high. That is really a problem for us. Finally, fighting.
So [the] most important point is, you must be liberated from that pride of your understanding of God, and Buddha, or enlightenment, or whatever. And then, you really become humble. You know? And also majestic. Very majestic and humble. And then you can help people. Otherwise, you create problems. That’s what Dogen Zenji says here.
So I don’t mean satori and awakening are not important. They are very important for us.
Questioner: So, […] sho was somehow always there.
Katagiri Roshi: Always there!
Questioner: It’s always present, while satori or awakening are not necessarily always there.
Katagiri Roshi: Satori and awakening are kind of bubbles coming up, you know?
Questioner: Yes, […] to experience it is important. But is it possible to realize [or] experience sho fully if you haven’t experienced satori first?
Katagiri Roshi: I don’t know which comes first. I think first, basically, sho is there, from the beginning to end, always. And then, under the certain circumstances, you can call it awakening, sometimes, you can call it satori, sometimes. Sometimes you cannot call it at all. That is sho. No name there, but you feel strong, on the basis of your life. You don’t know what it is, but you feel strength.
Questioner: So are you saying that satori or awakening is not really necessary if you… ?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, it’s necessary, but I don’t think you should try to hold [them] always, try to get a hold. No. But you shouldn’t ignore the satori and awakening. The point is you have to focus on that point, sho, where we are. Because we live there. So [focus on] where we are, and then we should take care of our life.
But usually, we always try to live in the realm of awakening or satori, and then we try to take care of human life. That’s why [we are] more confused there. But we should focus on the very basic foundation, there. And then, you can deal with satori, awakening, and many things. That’s [what] Dogen Zenji tries to present always. But this is not Dogen’s teaching, this is a general Buddhist teaching. [It’s] why Nagarjuna mentions 18 emptinesses, you know? [He laughs.] Why he has to say 18 emptinesses, 25 emptinesses, constantly. It’s ridiculous! [He laughs.] But he has to say [it].
Someone: Excuse me, Roshi. Could you clarify what the difference is when you’re say this is a Buddhist view versus this is Dogen’s view?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, Dogen’s view is a more practical point. He gives suggestions how to practice it, how to [make] Buddha’s teaching alive in human life, practically. That’s always what Dogen Zenji [talks about]. So he has very deep thought, […] and his practice is backed by this deep thought – that’s why people say Soto Zen’s [or] Dogen’s philosophy [is] “scholastic.” I don’t think he is “scholastic.” [He laughs.] He is a pretty religious, genuine person.
So he always puts it into practice, and then be free from thought, because deep thought is always working in his life as a religious life. So that’s why his practice is very deep. But on the other hand, it’s really manifested, so it’s just like everyday practice.
So very naturally, if you see such a practice, [for example] gassho and the form of practice, very naturally there is something profound behind the form of practice. Like a poem we put in a card: “Treading the mountain path, the violets fill my heart with indefinable gracefulness.”
[Tape change.]
… Is that okay? That is the point you wanted to ask?
Questioner: Yeah, I think. In awakening, then you would say, “This is sho.” But when I say that, I’m separating consciousness from sho. So that’s what you were just talking about, you’re criticizing.
Katagiri Roshi: No, not separated.
Questioner: Yes, […] but I do.
Katagiri Roshi: Uh-huh. Awakening is not separate from sho. […] Through the conscious world you can experience awakening, but it is not separate from sho. […] That’s why [we ask], how can you take care of awakening? This is the point. Alright? Is that clear?
If you deal with awakening, so-called “it’s not separate from,” or “it is one with it,” you already handle awakening as consciousness. So very naturally, you become high. You are carried away by conceptualizations. But awakening based on sho is something alive. Not the conceptual world: beyond [conceptualization]. Because awakening and sho [are] one, and working. That is the true reality, we say, we live in. So how can you take care of one? Of awakening and sho.
So if you see the sho, awakening, you shouldn’t [attach to] it, you shouldn’t stay with awakening, you must be free from awakening. That means experience, [and] that’s it. You know? And then all you have to do is just walk on the path of sho. That’s it.
And then next, you are attached to the sho: “Here it is, I can experience sho.” That’s why Dogen Zenji says, I mentioned yesterday, you have to be free from original realization too, and then, sho – real enlightenment – penetrates your body and mind. Just like walking in the mist. This is basic practice: going, always going.
44:38
Question: Wouldn’t it be correct to say that in a sense, everything is a manifestation of sho?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, everything is manifestation of the sho, that’s true.
Questioner: But then, all the defilements that…
Katagiri Roshi: Defilements? Uh-huh.
Questioner: Defilements, they are also in a way a manifestation of sho.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, that’s true.
In terms of Ocean Seal Samadhi, it’s always whatever, defilements and not defilements, and flowers, all are right in the middle of ocean sea of samadhi, so-called sho. Nirvana, we say.
Questioner: But then still it’s a paradox, because drowsiness and lots of other defilements obscure our experience.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, but it’s not contradictory. If you think of it, if you play with that situation with the intellectual world, conceptualization, then you think it is contradictory. But it’s not, because drowsiness or defilements are nothing but [beings], produced by conditional elements, which are constantly [changing]. Okay?
So sho, when the sho appears under certain circumstances – in other words, produced by certain conditional elements – then sho is called defilement. That’s why [Nan-yueh] says there are enlightenment and practice, but both are not contaminated by each other. So [they are] always there, but they don’t bother [each other]. So when you practice, just the practice. In other words, you have to really make the practice pure and clean, then it’s turned into sho.
And then, if you attach to the sho with your consciousness, sho is no longer sho. [He laughs.] It’s defilement; something like that. That’s why defilement, drowsiness, and good or bad, are always something produced by conditional elements. Okay?
Conditional elements, yesterday I mentioned, [are] many things. We don’t know what they are. Okay? Through this kind of phenomenal world, maybe you can say conditional elements are warmness, and human efforts which you don’t see but you can feel or touch, something like that. Many conditional elements there. But if you go [much] more deeply into the ultimate nature of existence, we don’t know how many conditional elements are there. Because sometimes that is atoms, or quarks, you know? [He laughs.] We don’t know what they are, but many conditional elements there. Do you understand quark? [Some laughter.]
So that is what Buddhism [says] about the conditioned elements. We call it dharma. So everything is produced by dharma, or integrated dharma.
Someone: What’s our problem then, exactly?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, no problem, actually. No problem. The problem is our naked eye and six senses, anyway. And then we have been tamed by education, and habits, et cetera, and then we always try to have certain ideas, we create a certain world, so-called conceptualizations, through the six senses. So if you see a microphone, immediately I say it’s a microphone, the microphone should have a certain form, et cetera. This is mine, this is yours. You can build up a conceptual world, through the language, through the rules fabricated by human beings.
So very naturally, if you see the microphone, immediately eye consciousness attaches to it, in many ways. So that is a problem. “Attach” means [either] attachment or ignoring [is] also a problem.
So that’s a problem, but the microphone itself: no problem. Even a nuclear weapon: no problem.
But still there is a problem there. So where is the problem? This is a question for us.
Question: It seems like sho is very natural.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, natural.
Questioner: And normal self-consciousness seems very strange, like, it seems unnatural, almost. Why should there be something separated?
Katagiri Roshi: Not separated.
Questioner: Well, it feels like it, though. It seems like it.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, that is our habit and the customs, we believe in that way. So it’s very difficult to see the [oneness]. It’s not separated; it’s exactly one. But according to our habit and education, it’s very difficult to see that exactly they are working together. We don’t know, we don’t see. That’s why we practice like this, and then finally we have to taste what is oneness. [Oneness] is not separate, not two? No, it’s not correct, you know? So it is one? It’s not correct. So that’s why [Buddhist] philosophy is coming up. The truth is not one, not two; not separate or not same – something like that. Always lots of terms coming up, in order to let us know what is the real meaning of the oneness. But according to consciousness, it’s pretty hard to know; it’s immediately separate.
Questioner: So is there an awakening or a satori based on sho that is the same understanding as self-consciousness? …
Katagiri Roshi: Uh… pretty close, but self-consciousness is not involved so much in the awakening and satori.
Questioner: Yes, that’s like infusion.
Katagiri Roshi: It’s there, but it’s [involving] so much. “It’s there” means self-consciousness is melted away into awakening and enlightenment, and manifests again, re-manifests.
Questioner: But […] the insight that comes when it wasn’t manifest, [that] thought is different than the usual self-consciousness. It’s like, I could understand all this is one – not two, not one – I could see that, without self-consciousness. Next moment, self-consciousness arises and it looks like, this is different, now it looks like [something is] separated. So even though I understand it’s not separated, it feels separated still.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Questioner: So is it possible… you understand?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Questioner: Is it possible that you have a clear enough experience that when self-consciousness returns, it sees the same world?
Katagiri Roshi: Same and one world?
Questioner: Yes, as sho.
Katagiri Roshi: Uh-huh. Yes.
Questioner: Yes?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. It’s possible. Yes exactly.
Questioner: Do you have it?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, that is not the conceptual world, that is not ideas. It is activity only, arising only, always. […] Right in the middle of flow of activity, there is oneness, there is sho, manifesting as one, with your self-consciousness. So consciousness is no longer self-consciousness; it’s is something more than self-consciousness. Universal.
That’s why the book Beyond Boredom and Anxiety [talks] about the [flow] between, you know, chess players, and musicians, et cetera. They use self-consciousness in the beginning, [and in] the end, but in the end self-consciousness doesn’t bother him or her, self-consciousness just [is] present with her or him. And then, all he can do is, some energies – we don’t know what it is – some energies between the chess and him or her let him do, continually.
So that is a kind of experience of a sho. But in terms of spirituality, I think that the flow of activity must be based on deep and profound understanding, profound taste of what ultimate nature of existence is, based on impermanence, et cetera. It’s a very deep awakening. Not only understanding that flow of activity according to the “data” of the individual, [but] many people’s experience. And then we say, here it is, this is important, [this is human life]. But that is scientific. That’s why naturally you have to explain this scientifically.
Questioner: If there is such a thing as the self-consciousness in the state of just arising, so it’s identical with the deep vision in sho, then it seems like self-consciousness is automatically practiced in every moment.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Questioner: So why then engage in formal practice?
Katagiri Roshi: That’s why a point is, […] we don’t know what the self-consciousness actually [is]. You cannot pick it up. What is the self-consciousness? [He laughs.] Day by day, from moment to moment, we use self-consciousness so much, but we don’t know what it is or how it works. But through everyday life, we feel something, you know? And then we put the name on it, so-called self-consciousness. Then finally we put certain preconceptions, so-called self-consciousness, but still it’s vague, very vague. So I think we should know the total picture of self-consciousness. Self-consciousness is always focusing on self – that’s fine. But on the other hand, how is self-consciousness produced? By whom? By what? By you? Well yes, but that is [only] a part of the reason. Even though you don’t want to create self-consciousness, when the time is arranged and conditions are ripe, then self-consciousness is coming up.
For instance, I mentioned a gentleman on a battlefield. Intellectually, he didn’t want to kill anybody, so he put his gun on the ground and he hid himself. And then the enemy is coming close, but still he is talking to himself: “I don’t want to kill.” Then [the enemy] comes nearer, and nearer, and nearer, and nearer – and then, his hands move to the gun. These kind of things are always there. Even though you think, “I don’t want to, I don’t want to protect myself, I want to be open” – still self-consciousness is working! By what? By you? No. By circumstances.
So, we don’t know who creates. So the basic nature of self-consciousness is nothing, because there is no particular person, no particular object, by which self-consciousness has been produced. We don’t know. So finally, what is the nature of self-consciousness? That is no root.
No root means a completely simple practice, simple activities. So if you see the self-consciousness – well, see it and let it be calm. That means deal with it simply as you can. That’s all we can do.
So, [if we are] sitting zazen, and then self-consciousness is coming up, that means [criticalness] towards zazen and towards me and towards others, and feeling good, many feelings coming up. But that is nothing but self-consciousness, so I think that all we have to do is to come back to simplicity. And then, self-consciousness will be quiet, naturally, by itself.
But next moment we say, “By itself? How?” [He laughs.] This is already self-consciousness coming up. So, on and on like this.
Okay, any other?
1:02:00
Question: Yes. What part does effort play in these three stages?
Katagiri Roshi: The main effort is focusing on the third, sho. Sho means that the practice and realization [are] one. You have to focus on that one. Then, naturally, you can experience awakening, enlightenment.
Questioner: Okay. What constitutes focusing?
Katagiri Roshi: Focusing means how can you deal with practice. If you direct yourself to the practice, how can you deal with the practice from day to day, from moment to moment? How? It’s not a concept. You cannot deal with the practice by conceptualizations. You have to do it. Okay?
So, how? That is sincere heart, we say. Because the ultimate nature of existence is working in undefilement – very pure, very clear, and very fast. Fast means super-fast. So very naturally, we have to deal with practice as simply as we can, with sincere heart. Okay?
That’s a little bit… it seems to be easy, but it’s not so easy, because we have had completely different customs, habits in the dualistic world. So that’s why [it’s a] quite different way of practice and understanding.
Questioner: So you would say that they all arise naturally?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, if your practice is ready. Ready means if your practice is handled, coped with, exactly [unfolding]. Then, it appears… not “then” [he laughs], simultaneously [it is] there.
Questioner: So you make effort in the practice. You can’t make effort in sho? Practice is sho.
Katagiri Roshi: Hmm?
Questioner: I’m just trying to figure out… It’s always confusing to me, in Soto Zen, what effort looks like, you know, how you do it.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, usually, you direct yourself to the practice, don’t you? That is very common. It’s not confusing. So using your body and your consciousness, anyway, in the physical body and the psychological situation, then you do what? Practice, we say. Practice means using a certain form, and then jump [in], put your body and mind in it. That is our practice. Like putting your body and mind in a bathtub.
Questioner: Well, maybe the reason I want to find out about what effort is, is because it seems possible to put my body in the practice, [but not my mind]…
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, that’s why the question is, how do you put your body into the bathtub? You need effort, but effort appears in many ways. Even if you lie down, and then you put your [right leg] in the bathtub, this is also effort – but you cannot exactly put your whole body [that way]. [He laughs] Many kinds of effort there. So, the important point is, what kind of form do you need in order to put your whole body and mind in the bathtub, in peace and harmony, in order to have total communion between you and the bathtub and all sentient beings? How? What kind of effort? It means, what kind of form is necessary for us? Naturally, form is important.
For instance, if I want to read this [sutra book], okay? Well, this is not a usual comic book, this is Buddhist teaching there. So, very naturally, [there is] psychological respect towards this. So, if you want to read this, how can you read this sutra book? Many kinds of effort there. How can you manifest your effort? Effort is manifested in a certain form, otherwise it doesn’t make sense.
So, form is there. What kind of form? Many forms. So, someone says, “Lie down on the floor and read it.” This is also reading. Someone is always facing the Buddha and makes his mind calm and then reads – this is also reading. So, what is the best form of reading, in order to manifest best effort […]? What is the best effort? In order to manifest best effort, I think we should have the best form, as best as we can. Otherwise, you cannot have peaceful, total communion between this reading, this sutra book, and also the spirit of the Buddha’s teaching, and also your physical and mental, and your spiritual life. Is that clear?
Questioner: Yeah, I know what you’re saying, I think. I think the key point for me is having the psychological respect. How do I get my mind involved in the practice? I find it really hard to respect something that I don’t understand.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, that’s why, effort is the same thing. How can you manifest the effort? We don’t know, without form. So, if you have a certain form, you know how to manifest effort in a best way. So, according to the form, I think the effort is manifested in a different way. Alright? Is that clear?
Questioner: It’s manifested in a different form…
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. It means, [like] I’ve mentioned already, somebody [lies down] on the floor, and you sit down straightly and hold this sutra book, and read it. Quite different effort there. Effort is manifested in different circumstances, alright?
So, how can you manifest psychological respect? Very naturally, you should figure out the best form in order to manifest the psychological respect. How? Is the best way lying down – when you lie down on the floor and read it, and are eating something, and then read the Buddhist scriptures? It’s not wrong, but… a little bit questionable, if you want to manifest psychological respect toward this. Do you understand?
For instance, if you see Queen Elizabeth, in England. Well, you can manifest many kinds of effort. Shaking hands frankly, using a forearm – in many ways. But what is the best way to exchange a greeting with her? With psychological respect?
And also, the problem is in that kind of thing, in everyday life, there are many kinds of different forms in different countries. But in spiritual life, I think [there are] different forms in different religions, but the basic spirit is the same.
So, what kind of thing is best? We have to find it. And then you can see spiritual respect, or psychological respect. Is that clear?
Questioner: Thank you.
Someone: Is that the same as faith? You believe? [Before you do.]
Katagiri Roshi: I think so! Even though your consciousness says, “I believe, I believe,” if you don’t do anything, it doesn’t make sense.
So, faith and belief is your activity. It must be based on activity. Religious activity. Okay? Religious participation. Otherwise, faith and belief doesn’t make sense. It’s not wrong; it’s part of the truth. But it is still conceptualization.