Blue Cliff Record Case 55: Tao Wu’s Condolence Call, Talk 1
February 18, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
Archive issue: This talk is mislabelled as Case 53 in the online archive.
Archive issue: The audio skips backward by a minute or two several times.
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0:00
Katagiri Roshi: Case 55:
Tao Wu and Chien Yuan went to a house to make a condolence call. Yuan hit the coffin and said, “Alive or dead?” Wu said, “I won’t say alive, and I won’t say dead.” Yuan said, “Why won’t you say?” Wu said, “I won’t say.” Halfway back, as they were returning, Yuan said, “Tell me right away, Teacher; if you don’t tell me, I’ll hit you.” Wu said, “You may hit me, but I won’t say.” Yuan then hit him.
Later Tao Wu passed on. Yuan went to Shih Shuang and brought up the foregoing story. Shuang said, “I won’t say alive, and I won’t say dead.” Yuan said, “Why won’t you say?” Shuang said, “I won’t say, I won’t say.” At these words Yuan had an insight.
One day Yuan took a hoe into the teaching hall and crossed back and forth, from east to west and west to east. Shuang said, “What are you doing?” Yuan said, “I’m looking for relics of our late master.” Shuang said, “Vast waves spread far and wide, foaming billows flood the skies—what relics of our late master are you looking for?”
Hsueh Tou added a comment saying, “Heavens! Heavens!”
Yuan said, “This is just where I should apply effort.”
Fu of T’ai Yuan said, “The late master’s relics are still present.”
( From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary)
That is the case.
This is a pretty important case. [It’s] a little difficult for you to understand, but this case handles the problems of life and death. Tao Wu was very serious [about facing] the problem of life and death directly in his life. I think you can imagine through this conversation, that problem was really serious for him.
So in this case, the teacher didn’t say any answer to this question. For the monk Tao Wu, life and death is a big problem for him which he has to face every day; but it’s very difficult [for him] to say what life is, what death is, because he has never experienced death, and on the other hand it’s very difficult to pick up what life is through his life. So it’s very difficult for him to see the opportunity to think of what life is [and] what death is in his everyday life, but in this case Tao Wu and Chien Yuan went to a house to perform a funeral service; this is a very good chance to see directly what life is, what death is. That’s why Tao Wu really asked [strongly], hitting the coffin and saying, “This is alive or this is dead?”
One of the famous Japanese Zen teachers, Ikkyu Zen Master, did almost the same thing when he was invited to perform a funeral service. He brought a hammer with him and opened the coffin, hit the dead body, and turned around and said to the [deceased’s] family, “This person is already dead! I don’t need a dead person, I need a living person.” Because he hit him but he didn’t say anything; so he left.
That means Buddha’s way is something you should learn while you’re alive. After death, well, it doesn’t make sense for you. Even if priests or ministers, or gods, or buddhas, bodhisattvas tell you [it is] very sure you will be reborn in heaven or paradise, it doesn’t make sense for you who are about to die, [or have] died. So you have to learn something while you are alive. That’s why Ikkyu Zen Master hit the dead body and told the family that it was not necessary for him to deal with dead bodies, he needs a person who is alive.
So Yuan hit the coffin and said, “Alive or dead?” This is very serious, because when you die, your body is gone – but how about [you]? Can you believe you are completely gone? Or, do you still believe your soul still exists somewhere? And maybe buddhas, bodhisattvas, and gods save it from your suffering?
So it’s pretty difficult to say death is exactly death. Death is death, but you don’t believe death is death as it is, because still you want to believe [there is] something alive, that’s not dead. So it’s very difficult to say, “This is death.”
Or, the same applies to life. You say you are alive – but how much are you alive? Does “you are alive” mean your life is exactly, vividly alive, or tuning in the rhythm of the universe exactly, not only thinking of yourself separate from the universe? Apparently you’re alive, but you’re almost dead, because you’re pretty egoistic. If you’re egoistic, your life doesn’t work very well.
So what is life? Is your life really exactly life? Yes it is, but on the other hand, you cannot say “it is life” – it’s dead.
That’s why Wu said, “I won’t say alive and I won’t say dead.” So he doesn’t say anything.
This is a very important point. From this point, I think you don’t know what life is, what death is. If you don’t know what life is or what death is, you don’t know who you are. Because who are you – your life, or your death? If you don’t know what life and death are, at that time simultaneously you don’t know who you are. So all things – [what] you can see objectively through your six senses, and also you yourself seeing through your six senses – [are] all gone. All gone means all return to X, zero. Nothing to pin down.
This X is pretty important. For instance in the Mahaprajnaparamita Sutra we say, “no nose – no eyes, no ears, no mouth, no body, no tongue.” When Tozan Zen Master [was a child], he heard that sutra and immediately touched his nose and said, “I have a nose. Why does the sutra say ‘no nose’?” He was a little boy, but he immediately touched his nose and said, “I have a nose; why does the sutra say ‘no nose’?” This is a very great question.
So you cannot say “my nose,” because the sutra says “no nose.” You cannot ignore the teaching of the sutra even if you don’t believe; already there is something: “no nose.” Even if you don’t believe, you really hang on, you are really stuck in this [statement]. But on the other hand you cannot say “no nose,” because you have a nose. So what is a nose? Can you say “my nose”? No… If it is true, then can you say “no nose?” No, you cannot say so, because you have a nose.
So affirmative, negative – all return to X. That is a big question. What is this? What’s going on in this world?
And also, if you practice Rinzai Zen, the Rinzai teacher gives you a koan, so first, nothing (mu). That nothing makes you confused, because you don’t understand “nothing.” Because all sentient beings exist through your six senses. Why do we say everything is nothing, emptiness?
Through this koan you have to completely return to X; everything becomes X. You have never experienced X, but that’s why through your six senses, the question, doubt, X seems to make you confused, but actually it’s not [confusing]. It’s really true, because there is something which makes everything become X. I don’t know what it is. It’s not a particular entity, so-called Buddha or God, or something. No. But there is something which makes everything become X. X means a question, a big question, beyond your usual questions.
The same applies to life and death.
So Wu said, “I won’t say alive, and I won’t say dead.” [That] means Wu really wants to lead this monk [Yuan] to realize we are in real reality which makes everything become X, regardless of whether he understands or not.
15:57
Yuan said, “Why won’t you say?” Wu said, “I won’t say.”
Because life and death is not something you can say, you can pin down, so you cannot say anything. So he won’t say. But for [Yuan], this problem is very serious, that’s why…
Halfway back, as they were returning, Yuan said, “Tell me right away, Teacher; if you don’t tell me, I will hit you.”
It is a very serious question or problem for him.
Wu said, “You may hit me, but I won’t say.”
This is very difficult for the teacher, because he cannot say anything. He cannot say something he cannot say. But human beings are very greedy, to get something, to know something. So if the teacher is always standing right in the middle of a big X, without giving anything… well, the student and people don’t follow you, because [there is] nothing. So that’s why we always give a certain technique, and are trying to guide, and temporarily [there is] lots of sweet candy in this life. Because it’s very difficult for human beings to always look at this big X.
Yuan then hit him.
In the commentary:
After being hit, Tao Wu then said to Chien Yuan, “You should go away for a while. I fear that if the monastery’s director of affairs finds out, he would make trouble for you.” He secretly sent Chien Yuan away. Yuan later came to a small temple where he heard a workman reciting the the Avalokitesvara scripture…
Anyway, after being hit, Tao Wu was very concerned about Yuan who hit him, because the director of the monastery might [punish him for] hitting his teacher. So the teacher didn’t want to make a problem in the monastery, so secretly he sent him away. That’s very compassionate. Do you understand that sense? Usually we always say, “let’s be open, honest” – honest means to open everything. It seems to be good, but I don’t know. We should be careful, opening everything. Sometimes it becomes a big problem – not only for others, but also for you. So that’s why this teacher secretly sent him away. This is a very compassionate way.
Anyway, the question is, why is it that we have to think of life and death like this? Because look at the trees, birds, pebbles, mountains, skies. When it is alive, it’s alive. When it is going to die, [it just dies]. A human being is not a special case; the same applies to human life. When death comes, all you have to do is just to die. When you are alive, you are just alive. Just like a tree in the severe winter: it doesn’t say anything, just [is ready]. When storm comes, trees are broken and die sometimes. That’s all. The same applies to human life, human death. Simply speaking, when you are alive, just to be alive, when you die, you just die. This is simple life. Why do we have to think like this? Do you think it is necessary to think like this, or do you think it’s not necessary? Or do you think you don’t know why? Or do you think, you don’t care? If you don’t care: just live, and just die. Just like trees and birds, pebbles and skies, winter. Can you do that? If you cannot do exactly in the same way as the tree’s life and death, well you have to think a little bit about life and death for human beings. Or you can you completely keep away from this problem? Never-the-less you can live as a human being? Why do you have to think in that way? What makes it possible for you to think [of] life and death like this? What is it? Can you say something?
On the other hand, why do you want to practice zazen? Why is it [you] practice zazen? You want to have a better life, don’t you? Or you don’t know? Whatever you say – “I don’t know why” – but even if you don’t know why, this is a reason for you. Within the no reason there is something you want to do.
That something is something you want to go beyond, beyond you as a usual person. You want to go beyond. “Go beyond” means not escape from usual human being; you have to be there, but you want to see something more than human being. That is “go beyond.”
So even though you say, “I don’t know, I don’t know why you do zazen,” this is a clear reason. Within the no reason there is a clear reason; consciously or unconsciously you want to seek something beyond usual human being. The problem is that you don’t realize; that’s it. If you don’t realize, you can say, “I don’t know.” That’s all.
Practically, if you see the trees, birds, and you want to believe all sentient beings as mind and consciousness, of course we can say so. The animals, birds, and trees, and pebbles and the skies all have mind, thinking and emotion, et cetera. But they think, they feel, they have their own consciousness just for themselves; so-called self consciousness. Self consciousness for them is very strong; self consciousness is functioning very strongly for them every day, instinctively.
The same applies to human beings, but if a human being acts in that way, human beings become egoistic. If you attach to the self consciousness very strongly, you become egoistic. Just like in order to survive lions eat other animals, without thinking – without reflection. But a human being, can you do this? Just kill and eat whatever, just for your survival? Well, we can do it, because we are animals; [we are the] same family of the animals, so we can do it, but we cannot do it, we have a certain capability which prevents us from doing that. What is this? What’s the difference between animals and you? What is that? Can you say?
Person: Consciousness …
Katagiri Roshi: Consciousness, yes…
Person 2: Compassion?
Katagiri Roshi: Compassion, yes…
Person 3: Reflection?
Katagiri Roshi: Reflection – that’s true.
Person 4: Heart-mind?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure.
Generally speaking, reflection.
28:19
Reflection is a kind of thinking, but reflection is to see something more than human being. Reflection is something which makes a human being seek something more than human being. That is reflection. In comparison with something. Something means not only human beings, [but] also nature, and air, trees, birds, and also divinities, and many things. Or including you. Because reflection makes you to think others and also to think you. That is reflection. Do you understand? Not only others, but also you can see you.
So reflection is pretty interesting human action, psychologically or spiritually, which is completely different from animal actions. In other words, [that] reflection tries to see something more than human being means that human beings [are] always living in the realm of limitation. But to see something more than human beings means to see un-limitation, something unlimited; to go beyond human being.
So in terms of the realm of limitation where human beings exist, we try to see something unlimited. On the other hand, in terms of […] the unlimited realm, we try to make the unlimited realm alive in the realm of limitation where we exist. In other words, we want to have something unlimited in the realm of limitation, so-called the human world. But actually, if you try to make the unlimited world alive in the human world which is limited, you can realize something which prevents you from doing that. That is called suffering. That is called suffering.
So [in] reflection, consciously or unconsciously, you try to [realize] something more than human being. You cannot stop it; regardless of whether you realize or not, this is the characteristic of human being. But if you try to do it, you cannot get it exactly, that’s why it’s suffering. But this suffering always comes forth, regardless of whether you are conscious of it or not. That is called The Truth of Suffering – the Four Noble Truths, exactly.
So very naturally, you can realize a contradictory world. You try to get [the] unlimited world in terms of a limited world, but it’s very difficult, that’s why it is suffering. On the other hand, you try to make the unlimited world alive in the limited world, but you can realize that there is something which prevents you from actualizing it. So this is suffering.
So very naturally, there is a contradictory world. This contradictory world is considered sometimes life and death and nirvana, [or] Buddhas and ordinary people, [or] enlightenment and delusion. [Or] sometimes, freedom and bondage. And we try to figure out the way to go beyond, to overcome this contradictory world, so-called life and death and nirvana, ordinary people and buddhas, and [boundaries] and freedom. This is called spiritual life.
34:52
The problem is, most people don’t experience this so-called unlimited world. But even if you don’t experience it, there is the unlimited world, unconditioned world.
The unconditioned world is kind of energy, or something like motion and functioning. You cannot put a name on it, using a certain idea of a name, so-called a certain entity; you cannot say so. If you put a name on it, so-called a certain entity, it’s not already working, it’s an idea. But the unconditioned world is some energies, always working – which makes all sentient beings exist as they really are, completely beyond whether you like or don’t like it.
So the contradictory world is already something as it is. Life and death – you cannot ignore it. Regardless of whether you like or you don’t like it, life and death is there.
For instance, when the storm comes, trees are broken. When the tornado comes, trees and houses and human beings are carried away. So at that time, in order to suvive, should you destroy the tornado? Sure, you can do that – but you cannot do that. But on the other hand, there are some individuals who very much like tornadoes because they are very strong and energetic, sucking in everything, and it’s wonderful energies. So in order to make the tornado alive, should we destroy human beings, and trees, birds, houses?
[Tape skip]
In other words, completely wipe away the surface of the human world; nothing there. And then you can make a tornado alive freely, wherever it may go; no problem. But you cannot do this.
So, what is a tornado? What is wind? What are the trees which are broken? Broken trees?
So you cannot destroy, you cannot negate everything. Completely beyond whether your like or dislike, you should accept all sentient beings as the really are. Because there is something which makes it possible for them to live, to exist just like this, as they really are.
But only human beings always try to separate and analyse and discriminate, according to affective preferences. But you cannot do it.
[Tape change.]
So a way in which we try to go beyond the contradictory world is, first of all, you should accept this contradictory world: life and death and nirvana, Buddhas and ordinary people. Man and woman. Anyway, just accept, and realize a contradictory world, but nevertheless, we cannot be carried away by contradiction, because if you are carried away by the contradictory world, it makes your life confused. So you must be there, but you have to do something more than the contradictory world. That is spiritual life. In other words, you have to get a taste of the totally contradictory world with your whole body and mind – not only your head. Maybe you can say “spiritually,” but spiritually is not only your head. I cannot say spiritually, or I cannot say that you are only physically. So physically and mentally and spiritually you have to digest this contradictory world and stand up there. This is very basic. And then you can deal with life and death, and ordinary people and buddhas, enlightenment and delusion, many things.
The other day I talked about writing. At that time, the first important attitude is, if you want to be a writer, write every day. Regardless of whether you have enough capability to be a writer or not: if you want to be a writer, you should do something every day.
That means you should digest totally good writer or poor writer or neutral writer – completely accept. Because that is contradictory. The more you write something, the more you don’t feel satisfied. So […] you can always see the good writer, but practically, you cannot see the good writer – very poor writer, right after you wrote something. So poor writer? Good writer? But completely beyond, you should accept both. But simultaneously, going beyond those two, and every day, you have to find a way how to write. That means write, every day. Even one sentence – write every day.
That is a way how to go beyond.
This is a very basic practice for us. And then you can learn something technical – how to be a good writer. You have to study, one by one.
But usually we don’t. First of all, we are groping for collecting lots of information, knowledge as a writer. Don’t you think so? From outside. And finally, you have to collect lots of data, and you have to analyze and synthesize the data. Can you do that? If you have good capability to collect, analyze, synthesize data, then you become a good writer. But if you don’t, you are fired; you are completely failed. That’s why basically you cannot have your life with a stable feeling. You cannot stang up in your life straightly.
So whatever you want to be, first of all you have to figure out a way how to go beyond contradictory. Because always there is a contradiction. How do you do it? This is spiritual life, so-called religion. We say “religion.”
Religion is not only to believe in some divinities, you know? You have to do something every day. And then you can see or you can practice very stable life every day. Regardless of whether you realize it or not, practically, you can do it.
And then, you can handle data, information, techniques, how to become a good writer, et cetera. Otherwise, it’s very difficult to become a good writer. If your life is not stable, how can you collect data, how can you deal with [our worldly] affairs? You cannot do it.
So wherever you, you must be “center of the ball.” I always say, “center of the ball” – do you understand? Ball always has a center, wherever it rolls. And then the ball becomes simultaneously a torpedo, because the ball can go anyplace. Intellectually you don’t believe a ball turns into a torpedo, but ball always has the center of the ball, but the moment it rolls everywhere, it becomes a torpedo. When it becomes a torpedo, the center becomes just the front. If the center comes in the front, very naturally you can have eyes how to deal with information, data, et cetera. Because you can know in which direction to go. So you can handle the data and techniques, et cetera.
But we don’t do this. First of all, always your center comes in front and tries to find lots of data.
This is very common. That’s why we have to give this kind of a koan, because this is characteristic of human beings. Regardless of whether you understand or not.
48:18
That’s why teacher always says … I want to say is completely nothing, nothing there. Nothing there means that is completely freedom where you can accept you, you can accept all sentient beings as they really are. If you don’t, you always have certain ideas; at that time you cannot accept everything. Because you see everything in terms of your ideas, so it’s very difficult to accept all sentient beings exactly.
So that’s why constantly he says, “I won’t say.” Because this is the source of life and death, this is the source thinking, this is the source of human consciousness. I cannot say anything.
49:25
Later Tao Wu passed on. Yuan went to Shih Shuang and brought up the foregoing story. Shuang said, “I won’t say alive, and I won’t say dead.” Yuan said, “Why won’t you say?” Shuang said, “I won’t say, I won’t say.” At these words Yuan had an insight.
[That] means this conversation was completely different from the [conversation in the] first paragraph. Because according to “I won’t say” by Shih Shuang, Yuan realized there is something where he has to accept totally the contradictory world – life and death, delusion and enlightenment, et cetera. But it’s very difficult to say it is delusion or it is enlightenment; it’s very difficult. There are contradictory words, but you cannot pin down delusion is, what enlightenment is, finally, because if you touch the source of delusion, if you touch the source of enlightenment, all gone, all becomes X. But even though everything becomes X, actually there is a contradictory world.
So we don’t know in which to go. “We don’t know which to go” means completely nothing to pin down, so let it go and you should accept all sentient beings just like this. That means, if you accept all sentient beings as they are, you can let go of yourself as you really are, in the same way as the object you have accepted as they are, exactly.
That is called enlightenment.
But that enlightenment is not an idea. You have to practice it every day. So that is, I told you, if you want to be a writer, write every day. That is a simple practice. But it is too simple to know, that’s why you aren’t satisfied.
52:23
And next:
One day Yuan took a hoe into the teaching hall and crossed back and forth, from east to west and west to east.
Because he realized something, how to go beyond the contradictory world. You cannot destroy the contradictory world, as I told you. Even though wind destroys the trees, you cannot destroy wind, you cannot preserve the trees ignoring the life of the wind. So you have to accept wind and trees, even though trees are destroyed by wind.
So this is always contradictory. But contradictory is not something contradictory which makes you confused, because if you see the contradictory in terms of your ideas, we temporarily say, “contradictory.” But [actually] they don’t exist in a contradictory way, they exist as they really are, because there is something which makes them possible to live as they are, exactly, in peace and harmony. But when you see them in your human speculation, we don’t understand why, that’s why we say “contradictory.” This is human consciousness.
That is called reflection. Reflection leads you to try to touch the source of thinking, of thoughts or discrimination. The source of discrimination, thinking and thoughts, [is] just like a white paper. X. Zero.
So he realized something important, in order to live in the contradictory world, through the repetition of the answer by Shih Shuang. So he has to practice it. So that’s why he practiced like this, in this case, “one day he took a hoe into the teaching hall and crossed back and forth, from east to west and west to east.” He seems to be a crazy guy. But this is just an expression, as literature.
And then,
Shuang said, “What are you doing?” Yuan said, “I’m looking for relics of our late master.”
Because when he was alive, Yuan didn’t understand his suggestions, but after his death he understood. So he really appreciated his suggestions; that’s why he wanted to respect, pay homage to his teacher. [At] this time, that means trying to find these relics.
But where are the relics? Actually relics are not there. But he wanted to find the relics. Because you cannot say “no relics,” so actually there are relics. But you cannot say there are relics, because relics are not there. In other words, if you see the relics, you can’t say “this is my teaching,” you cannot say so, because it is relics. On the other hand, you cannot deal with relics in the same way as the usual ashes. No. It’s the teacher’s relics. So the teacher’s relics is the teacher, anyway. But on the other hand, it’s the relics; just ashes. So where is the real teacher you want to see? In the relics? Or outside of the relics? Or completely the spirit of the teacher who is “haunting” somewhere? And you want to invite him into his relics? Well, maybe you may do it, but it’s pretty difficult to do this. So what are the relics, where is the teacher? What does he mean? Why do we have to pay homage to the relics? Where did he go? Whatever you make a question, all becomes completely X. You don’t know.
But even though you don’t know, all becomes X, and then you have to say something in the realm of X. That is the practice, so-called if you want to be a write, all becomes X: good writer, and bad writer, and poor writer, and neutral writer, all becomes X, because you don’t know, you don’t know who you are and you don’t know what the writer is. But even though you don’t know, in the realm of the X you don’t know you have to do something as a writer. What does that mean? Write every day. That is completely go beyond, don’t you think so? It’s really beyond. It’s not a matter of discussion; you have to practice it.
That’s why in this story you don’t understand, but if I say it like this, maybe you might understand it a little bit.
So everything becomes X doesn’t give you confusion. Anyway you can see this X – big doubt, so-called X – causes you to see something broad – about your life, about your death, about the writer, about photographers, about musicians, whatever you want to do.
Anyway, everything becomes X, because strictly speaking if you start to reflect upon it, you don’t understand what it is. You don’t understand who you are. You don’t understand your nose. But even though you say you don’t understand, you cannot just be present without doing anything. Even though you don’t understand, you have to do it, you have to know it. To know in the realm of “you don’t know” is to practice it, to do something, to be moving in the deep course of practice. You have to be a writer – if you want. That’s it.
That is called spiritual life.
So that’s why this monk Yuan just took a hoe and walked the preaching hall from east to west, west to east; that’s it. That’s a demonstration. That means a practice; just a practice. You have to move in the deep course of the practice. You become a writer; you become a musician.
1:01:49
And then,
Shuang said, “Vast waves spread far and wide, foaming billows flood the skies—”
This is a Zen expression, in order to say something about the vastness of existence. The realm of X – this is a special expression Zen always says. Or Bodhidharma says “vastness and nothing holy,” et cetera. Very often this expression appears in the Blue Cliff Record. “Vast waves spread far and wide, foaming billows flood the skies” – this is completely the world of X, which is moving in the ten directions, everywhere. Nothing to pin down, we want to say.
So that’s why the relics of the master [are] just like X. Or the spirit of your master becomes X. His death becomes X; your life becomes X. Your practice [which] you think becomes X too.
So that’s why Shuang said it like this. And then he said,
“… what relics of our late master are you looking for?”
What are you looking for? Relics? Or spirit of the teacher. Always there is a question; that’s it. If you think it, if you reflect upon what you are doing, immediately there is a question, what are you looking for. All you have to do is to do zazen if you want to do zazen. But if you start to think or reflect upon yourself: what are you looking for? What are you doing here? Don’t you think so? That is completely X – X to you, and X to zazen, X to the result, too. Completely all things become X.
Yuan said, “This is just where I should apply effort.”
And then you cannot just sit down there without doing anything. You have to make every possible effort to do. What is this? That’s why I said, you just move in the deep course of the practice. You are a writer, if you want.
So our effort is going where? Not in the realm of your feelings, okay? Completely beyond your feelings, you have to make every possible effort. Your effort is going right in the middle of X, right in the middle of good feeling or bad feeling. This is your effort. Even though you don’t understand, that is a very basic effort.
But usually people depend on effort coming forth from human feelings. If you feel good, you can make an effort. If you don’t feel good, you don’t want it. So this kind of an effort is very shaky, don’t you think so? Sometimes going up, sometimes going down. This going down, going up [is] also effort, but very shaky. But effort which is going in the realm of X: that is exactly going just like the water of the Ganges river, very smoothly going. Because it is very silent, but it is very active. It is not showy, but it is very stable. [A] very secure step.
So that’s why Yuan said, “This is just where I should apply effort.”
1:06:22
Fu of T’ai Yuan said, “The late master’s relics are still present.”
And then if you make an effort to do [something] like this, then the teacher’s relics exist there.
I said about the rakusu you are making: chanting the Triple Treasure in each stitch, that is you bringing the historical Shakyamuni Buddha to be present, right there. It is not the imaginary world, it is not the mystical. If you think it, it becomes mystery. But you don’t know what the rakusu is. If you say “rakusu,” well rakusu is just a cloth. Or just like a quilt you usually make. What’s the difference between a quilt and a rakusu? [Take] small pieces of cloth and put them together – what’s the difference? Well, a quilt is better than a rakusu, because a quilt is very beautiful and colorful, but a rakusu is no sense of artistic [he laughs,] just mixed dark colors.
But the quality of the process of making is quite different, okay? If you participate in the practice which you are making a rakusu, you chant the triple treasure means you bring the Buddha Shakyamuni right there.
What are you looking for? Buddha Shakyamuni? Where is it? In the rakusu? Or in the relics of Buddha Shakyamuni? What is it?
Whatever you say, all becomes X anyway, don’t you think so? It all becomes X. And then if you touch something: “Hey, this rakusu becomes Shakyamuni because I have brought it!” If you say so, everyone thinks you are crazy, because it’s very mysterious. So what is that rakusu? Finally only the doubt [is] left.
This is reality which the rakusu, Buddhist robes, handed down from generation to generation, through India, to China, to Japan, without changing anything at all – exactly there, for 2500 years. Why is it here? Why is it that rakusu is important for us? We don’t know. So whatever you say, your rakusu and chanting the Triple Treasure in each stitch, and also yourself, and historical Buddha Shakyamuni, the spirit of Buddha Shakyamuni, relics of Buddha Shakyamuni, all become X. If you reflect upon it. It’s very common; it is very natural.
But if you don’t see anything, [still] you have to do something, right in the middle of X. What? What do you do? All you have to do is, you just are moving in the deep course of practice: you are making a rakusu. Or, you are accepting rakusu, just like this. That is everyday practice. If you throw away your rakusu as a piece of cloth, it becomes a piece of cloth. Next moment, if you pick up that rakusu as a Buddha, it becomes a Buddha. Don’t you think so? If you blow your nose with your rakusu, it becomes tissue paper.
Because it becomes X. Rakusu is always freedom, anyway. Whatever you want to do. Rakusu sometimes appears as something mysterious. Sometimes is becomes Shakyamuni Buddha. Sometimes a piece of tissue paper. Sometimes you blow your nose. Sometimes, garbage can. Sometimes it really helps your life. Sometimes it deepens your life. Whatever you say – all becomes X.
Finally, you want to say it. Why do you want to say? Because I cannot say anything about what I cannot say. Because all are X. This is my life, this is my death. This is the life of rakusu, this is the life of your practice too. And then your effort is where? In the certain realm of your feeling, or your senses? No. Your effort must go in the realm of X. That is what? Completely beyond discussion, philosophical, psychological discussion. Every day something you have to build up, anyway make it.
[Tape interruption.]
Question: […] never stops?
Katagiri Roshi: … as long as you are breathing. Because there is energy. It’s going.
It’s not bad, okay? It’s not something good. But we should accept the thinking of X, first. This is your first attitude toward. And then think of it. How can you deal with the thinking? Practically?
1:14:06
Question: Roshi? Did you say that Tozan, when he was a boy, he said when he heard the sutra that there’s “no nose” [but] I have a nose? Well, I don’t exactly understand what’s so significant about that.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, it’s very simple question that Tozan as a little boy felt, practically, in a deep sense. For adults it’s very common, but for a little boy it’s very deep, a big shock for him. For an adult it’s not, don’t you think so?
Same person: Well it seems to me like that’s what most kids would say.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure, just like trees, birds. Exactly. But an adult is always very complicated; we cannot express our thinking directly. But trees and birds directly express. When winter comes, exactly standing there, just like a [tree].
That’s why that question is exactly he is a little boy just standing straight right in the middle of X. He doesn’t know what. I have a nose, but the sutra says no nose – which is right? But he doesn’t know which is right. He’s right in the middle of X, standing there.
That’s why the teacher said, “I am not the teacher for you. I want to send you to somebody else.” So he sent him to somebody else, because the teacher found how sharp he was. Great little boy.
But in terms of adult sense, we have to explain why that question and answer is important for us. That’s why in terms of the sutra’s “no nose, no eyes, no ears,” can we we hold on to this nose, which exists always, so-called “my nose.” Don’t we? Yes… but in terms of “no nose,” the sutra says it a question. Whether you don’t believe or you believe, the sutra says like this, and then touching my nose – what is this? You cannot say always, “this is my nose; yes, my nose exists” – but the sutra says “no nose.” What is this? So you question.
In the other hand, in terms of my nose which exists exactly, what is the truth of the teachings, so-called “no nose”? So is the teaching of no-nose also questionable? In terms of the presence of nose, the teaching of Prajnaparamita is also questionable, don’t you think so? So which is right?
So the little body is exactly right in the middle of X. But adults are always thinking that way, this way; this way, that way. But a little boy is exactly right in the middle of X.
Same person: You mean like adults analyze it?
Katagiri Roshi: Analyze it, yes. I say, “Hey, look at the Prajñāpāramitā Sutra! This way!” And then everyone looks this way! [Laughter] Rushing into it… They forget [the other] side. [Laughter.] And then [I say], “Oh, no, no, no.. look that way.” [Laughter.] [Hey! Zip.]
But a kid exactly [is right there]. Don’t you think so? That’s a kid.
Just like the trees, birds. That’s why we say kids are beautiful, you know?