The Awakening of Faith – Talk 1: Introduction and Invocation
March 16, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Summary
Katagiri Roshi briefly introduces The Awakening of Faith and goes over the structure of the book. After answering a few questions, he comments on the Invocation, followed by another question.
Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
0:00
Katagiri Roshi: I don’t want to explain the history of this book, or the story of the author, Ashvaghosha. I think if you read this book, if you can understand [something], mainly I want to concentrate on the teaching of this book. This teaching is very interesting. Kind of the teaching of Buddha based on the teaching of emptiness and also [the teaching of] the function of human psychology.
Mainly in Buddhist history, [there are] two lines of teaching. One is the teaching of emptiness, [taught] by Nagarjuna. After that in Buddhist history, the [Buddha’s] teaching based on Buddhist psychology has been developed; that is Abhidharmakosha, and the “Mere Consciousness” (“Consciousness-Only”). But this book is kind of [an] overall picture of a teaching including the teaching of emptiness and also Buddha’s teaching in terms of Buddhist psychology. So [it’s a] very interesting book. Very systematical.
The title is The Awakening of Faith. But originally, I think I would like to say [the title is] The Treatise on Awakening Mahayana Faith.
[In the word] mahayana, maha is “great,” yana is “vehicle.” In this book, mahayana is described [as] the essense of what is now, here, or the ultimate nature of what is here and now. Two meanings: one is what is the ultimate nature of what is here and now, and also the second meaning is “embracing.” So maha means the essence or ultimate nature of what is here, now, [and] that maha is to embrace all sentient beings. That is the meaning of maha.
And the function of the maha is a kind of vehicle to carry all sentient beings; that’s why we say “vehicle.” So Maha-yana, yana means “vehicle.” All sentient beings are carried on. That is mahayana.
[…]
I have to say more [on] Mahayana faith, [as in] Awakening of Faith. This book is [a] teaching of Buddhist faith: not the usual Hinayana Buddhist faith, but Mahayana Buddhist faith.
Mahayana is kind of the essense of the Buddhist faith, or object of faith we believe in. Mahayana is the object of faith because maha means essense of being or ultimate nature of what is here and now, so that is really the object of our faith. But it is very pure, because the maha is the essense of being which embraces all sentient beings and carries them. So it is very pure function. That’s why the object of faith is something very pure, beyond human control, human speculation. Completely pure and clean.
That’s why the person who wants to believe in that – believe in this faith, believe in that object, [the] essense of being – very naturally [that] person becomes very pure. Because if you believe in or if you think of this essence of being, very naturally you must be pure and clean. [If] even for a moment you think so, you become very clean and pure.
[…] If you believe this essence of being you become pure, so in Buddhism it says faith is pure and clean. Purity and cleanness, this is the meaning of faith.
So we should awaken this faith. How? That’s why [it explains] how we should awaken this Buddhist faith. That is this book.
10:20
So first, let’s [look at] the structure of this book. This is a very common structure which Buddhist treatises follow: first, the introduction, and [then] the main subject, and conclusion. Three points.
[The] introduction is “Invocation.” This is a very common structure. The Buddhist treatise follows. Always there is an invocation and main subject. [The main subject] is [the] very important point this book really teaches us.
The main subject consists of five parts:
Part 1: The Reasons for Writing. So why did Ashvaghosha want to write this book? [There are] eight reasons there.
Part 2: Outline. […] That outline is one-mind, its two aspects, its three characteristics. Already that outline is explanation of the Interpretation (Part 3), or Part 4 [and] Part 5. So Part 3, Part 4, and Part 5 explain about one-mind, its two aspects, and its three characteristics.
One-mind means the truth. Truth means one-mind, only one mind – mind only. Human beings, trees, birds, winter – all existence, all beings – are based on the same and one ground. We call [this] one-mind.
So one-mind, and its two aspects. […] In Part 3 there are [three chapters]. […] Under Chapter 1, “Revelation of the True Meaning,” there is “The Mind in Terms of the Truth,” [and] “The Mind in Terms of Phenomena.” Two aspects means the mind in terms of the truth, the mind in terms of phenomena. So one-mind can be seen in terms of two aspects: the truth, and also arising and ceasing of being. All sentient beings are born and disappear like this. Birth and death. So from two aspects, one-mind is seen. […]
Three characteristics means: one is essence, second is attributes, and [third is] functioning. So all sentient beings are based on three characteristics: one is essence, second is attributes, and third is function.
Essence is kind of a discipline. If all sentient beings exist in this world, there is a reason why [they] exist, so [there is a] discipline. Nothing exists at random with no reason. Nothing. There is always a reason why it exists. Even though evil or devils, right or wrong – and even if wind always breaks or destroys trees or houses, even if a tornado destroys human beings, houses, nature – still it has a reason why it exists. There is a discipline. So from this point, even the tornado is entitled to live in this world. You cannot destroy it. So that is a discipline. (Transcriber’s Note: Katagiri Roshi says ‘discipline’ here, but he might mean ‘principle’.)
And also, if all sentient beings exist in this world, it has always attribute. Attribute means form; it has always form, marks. And also, the marks [or] form are which people can see through the six senses. That is attributes.
And also the functioning. So if all sentient beings have a form and marks, they always function. In many ways.
So those are the three characteristics.
Person 1: Hojo-san? You said “discipline,” under…
Katagiri Roshi: Essence. That is essence; the three characteristics are essence, attribute, and function.
Person 1: Where did you get discipline in there? I didn’t understand that.
Katagiri Roshi: Discipline means the reason why, reason for the existence.
… And the one-mind, its two aspects, its three characteristics in a sense describe about the maha, in this case. We say Mahayana – what is the maha. But in this book, maha is described by one-mind, its two aspects, and its three characteristics. And also, in Part 4, there are four faiths, and five practices, and excellent skillfulness – something like this. That is the meaning of the maha.
Okay, “Revelation of the Truth,” and “The Mind in Terms of the Truth”… the next line [is] the two kinds of [their] truth: emptiness and non-emptiness. So mind in terms of the truth is described from three points, [and] two kinds of the truth, emptiness or non-emptiness. Well, I don’t want to explain [this now]; gradually we can understand this one.
Briefly I want to explain [Part 3]:
Chapter 1, “Revelation of the True Meaning.” So very naturally, we know already the outline of what this book [contains]. […] What is the one mind? So here it says “Revelation of True Meaning”: under this, the book mentions the mind in terms of the two truths, [the mind in terms of the absolute and] the mind in terms of phenomena.
Chapter 2: “The Causation of Evil Attachments.” Next it says, “the correction of two attachments, to a person and dharma.” Causation of evil attachment. So if you understand the truths – the mind in terms of the truth, the mind in terms of phenomena – there is still some problem, that is attachment to a person and dharma. This is a strong attachment we have. So we have to correct this. […]
Chapter 3: “Analysis of the Types of Aspiration for Enlightenment.” So, how we practice. […] This is [about] aspirations for enlightenment. So we should know what enlightenment is, [and how to accomplish [or] attain enlightenment. […]
Part 4: “On Faith.” So [Part 3,] “Interpretation,” is the most important [part] in this book. Very concretely it explains what [is the] meaning of the truth and how to practice, what are the obstacles for us in order to reach the truth. And Part 4 is our practice. Practice for [a] determined class of people – that means, who have non-backsliding faith, very strong faith. For those people, how we practice. But on the other hand, there are people who have backsliding faith, [an] “un-determined” class of people. So for those people, how we practice, how we awaken Mahayana faith. That is Part 4.
And Part 5, we try to encourage all sentient beings also to reach Buddha’s way. So, how? So there is “Encouragement of Practice and the Benefit.” For instance, Buddha’s way, the essence of beings is very pure and clean, so even for a moment, let’s think of it. In other words, usually we say, “Let’s live in a positive way” – very often we say so. And buddha is very valuable and helpful for us. So let’s […] have access to the Buddha’s teaching as best as we can. As much as possible, we try. Something like this. So that is encouragement. So, how we awaken Buddhist Mahayana faith. […]
The conclusion is the verse of parinama. Parinama is “dedication”. Dedication or parinama [is] eko in Japanese. Eko means turn the merits of your practice to another. If you do something, very naturally you can get a result, but that result is not something you should hold on to by yourself, you should share it with the people. So as best as we can, we should do something good every day, because if you do something good, that goodness guides you to have close access to the Buddha’s way, instead of doing something wrong. If you do something wrong, that activity keeps you away from the essence of being or ultimate nature of beings. Very naturally it keeps you away; [slipping] off, going far from that. That’s why, as best as we can, we should do something good. If we do something good, very naturally […] you can find the way to have access to the Buddha Way. So that is eko, dedication; we say parinama [in Sanskrit].
So in Buddhism parinama is very beautiful human thought. We do something good and then we can get the result, but that result should be shared with all sentient beings. So very naturally, there is the practice of egolessness. If you do something good, very naturally people try to hold on. But, let it go. You can get enlightenment, but next, let it go.
The practice of letting go is very difficult for us, because we want to hold on. If through the practice of zazen you experience something wonderful, you really want to keep it for [a long time]. But you cannot do it, actually. So very naturally, the rhythm of human life shows you the practice of letting go. But we don’t do it. […] Actually you try to hold it, but the nature of beings lets you learn how to let it go.
That’s why human beings in a sense create lots of ego and attachment – to you, to the teaching, to the object. That is the dharma and attachment to the dharma and a person.
So the verse of parinama, this is the conclusion.
And also, the introduction, “Invocation.” Whatever kind of book is written, the author has a certain purpose why. Particularly, the author tried to write something on the basis of full devotion to the Triple Treasure. So that is the Invocation. The Invocation is written in the strong devotion toward the Triple Treasure.
Do you have questions so far?
31:30
Person 2: Hojo-san, when you say that this book has to do with awakening Mahayana faith as opposed to Hinayana, […] what is it?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. I said Hinayana, but Maha doesn’t mean “great” as opposed to “small.”
Person 2: No?
Katagiri Roshi: No. I don’t mean this. But the term Mahayana is used very naturally opposed to Hinayana. So Mahayana is the understanding Buddha’s Way in a broad perspective. But in this case, the term maha doesn’t mean great opposed to small.
Person 2: Okay. Does Hinayana mean just, like, cultivating one’s own sort of psychological thing…
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, that is a very common understanding of this.
32:48
Person 3: Hojo-san, you said there are different practices for those with non-backsliding faith and those with backsliding faith? How do you know if you have backsliding faith or non-backsliding faith?
Katagiri Roshi: [Chuckles.] Well, I think you can know pretty well in your everyday life.
In spiritual life, you cannot always stay in the strong spiritual faith. Even though you believe that you have strong spiritual faith, still within the faith you can see the up and down [slide]. Sometimes you don’t want, sometimes you want. Sometimes you have doubt. You become very skeptical. Apparently you do zazen strongly, you believe Buddhism, but still there is skeptical doubt. So doubt and skepticism, […] this is kind of “backsliding” your faith.
More or less, we have this kind of backsliding faith. So in order to have a not-backsliding faith, we have to practice for a long time.
But basically, we are already living in the realm of un-backsliding faith, because we are already embraced by the essence of existence, beings. [Whether] you realize or you don’t realize, you are embraced by the universe. So from this point, wherever you may go, you are always at the stage of not-backsliding faith, already.
But we don’t see it. That’s a problem for us. That’s why we have to notice, we have to realize it, and we have to practice it.
Person 3: Then why are there different kinds of practices? If everybody is both backsliding and non-backsliding, why do they say there are different kinds of practices?
Katagiri Roshi: Because everyone has different kinds of lifestyles. Basically all sentient beings live in the same and one ground; from this point, all sentient beings become equal. But, each one is different. Tree is different, bird is different. So very naturally [there are] many kinds of human beings there.
But through the different characters and characteristics, different personalities, different lifestyles, different form of beings, we have to realize the same and one ground, so-called faith, the essence of the universe. We have to find it. That’s why there are many practices.
Person 3: [Got it.]
39:15
Person 4: [It says] faith, does that mean faith in the dharma? Or what is it faith in?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, we can say dharma. Because dharma is the essence of being. [Dharma has] three meanings: essence of being, and phenomena, and [also the] teaching. That is called dharma.
So what we should believe in, generally speaking, we say dharma, we can believe dharma. So we can believe in the essence of beings as dharma, we can believe in the phenomenal world as dharma. We can believe in the dharma as the phenomenal world, because the phenomenal world is not something different from the essence of existence. So that’s why we believe the dharma as the essence of beings and as the phenomenal world, and also we believe in the teaching. That is belief.
Well, in this book, faith is described in more detail. …
[Tape change.]
41:00
… Let’s read the Invocation. It’s on page 23:
I take refuge in the Buddha, the greatly Compassionate One, the Savior of the world, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, of most excellent deeds in all the ten directions; And in the Dharma, the manifestation of his Essence, the Reality, the sea of Suchness, the boundless storehouse of excellencies; And in the Sangha, whose members truly devote themselves to the practice. May all sentient beings be made to discard their doubts, to cast aside their evil attachments, and to give rise to the correct faith in the Mahayana, that the lineage of the Buddhas may not be broken off.
(From The Awakening of Faith, attributed to Asvaghosha, translated by Yoshito S. Hakeda.)
“The lineage of the Buddhas”: originally [it said] seed of the Buddha. Seed of the Buddha: we try to maintain, we try to continue the seed of the Buddha. That means the seed of universal life. Everything has universal life, okay? [There is some clarification of the word: seed.] But in the translation here it says lineage of the Buddhas.
That’s why in the Invocation we take refuge in the Triple Treasure: buddha, dharma, sangha. So, “I take refuge in the Buddha.”
Take refuge is called nama or namo, [or in Japanese] kimyo. Ki is “return,” myo means “life.” So “take refuge in the Buddha” is “return to the Buddha with life.” In other words, you have to devote yourself to return to the essence of existence, to the Buddha, with life.
So you have to offer your life. You offer your life to buddha.
So that is big, huge devotion. Not only thinking, okay? You cannot offer yourself, offer your life to the Buddha in terms of the egoistic sense, you cannot do it. So you need the great, enormous effort, enormous compassion. You should offer your life.
Something more than to risk your life, okay? Kind of risking your life, but risking your life is very egoistic. But to take refuge in the Buddha is kind of risking your life, but very elegant. [It must be based on] elegant behavior.
45:40
I take refuge in the Buddha, the greatly Compassionate One, the Savior of the world, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, of most excellent deeds in all the ten directions; …
So, “I take refuge in the Buddha,” that is kimyo, “take refuge.” In English we say “take refuge,” but in Sanskrit we say namo. And namo is translated as kimyo in Japanese. [It means] return to the Buddha with your life. Do you understand? Devote. Full devotion to the Buddha.
“… the greatly Compassionate One”: So what is the Buddha? “The greatly Compassionate One.” Very compassionate, because compassion comes from the bottom of existence. When you touch the core of existence, very naturally compassion comes up. I always say, just like your water pipe touches the water vein, very naturally water comes up. Just like this. So if you understand very deeply the human world, very naturally compassion comes up. Wherever you may be, compassion is there.
So “greatly Compassionate One,” this is the Buddha. And the Buddha is to have this compassion, and also […] to let others awaken this compassion. So that is called Buddha. Buddha awakens himself […] to compassion, and simultaneously [lets] others awaken compassion.
“… the Savior of the world”: So if you have this great compassion, very naturally you can help all sentient beings. So we say “Savior.”
I don’t know [about the word] “savior.” “Savior of the world” […] I don’t know how I can say [it]. In the Chinese, here it says “supreme karma.” Instead of “greatly compassionate one, the Savior of the world,” originally it says supreme karma, supreme activities. Because that is Buddha’s intention, or Buddha’s will. Buddha’s will is always something supreme, and always moving toward the essence of existence on the basis of compassion. So Buddha’s intention or will lets him do something good always, under all circumstances. That is “greatly compassionate one, the savior of the world.” At that time, you become [a] great buddha who helps all sentient beings.
[…] Oh excuse me, let me say: “… the greatly Compassionate One, the Savior of the world, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, of most excellent deeds in all the ten directions.” […] Excuse me, I said a little bit something wrong; I didn’t notice “the most excellent deeds in all the ten directions.” The buddha’s activity is always excellent or supreme. “In all the ten directions” means the implication of space, but not only space, but also the time process. Including time and space, Buddha is always doing something good, for all sentient beings. So “in all ten directions” means for all sentient beings who exist in space and time. That is called in the ten directions. So Buddha has most excellent deeds for all sentient beings.
And next, what is most excellent deeds for all sentient beings? That is a great Compassionate One. He is great [and] compassionate, that’s why his deeds are very excellent. One by one, it says “the great compassionate one,” Buddha, his deeds are very compassionate, and also he is helping all sentient beings, the human world, that’s why “savior of the world.” That is his deeds.
And also “omnipotent, omnipresent.” Omnipotent means Buddha’s body is always functioning freely, helping. According to the characteristic of the person, according to the circumstances, Buddha helps. So that is “omnipotent.” Buddha’s body is working freely, functioning freely. That is “omnipotent, omnipresent.” And also it says “omniscient.” Omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient means the implication of how Buddha’s body is functioning: completely freely.
[…] That is Buddha, so that’s why we take refuge in the Buddha. We are buddha already, that’s why we try to do as a buddha, we try to behave as a buddha. We are already buddha, that’s why we have to show it, we have to act as a buddha. If you are not buddha, it’s not necessary to practice, you know? We are buddha, that’s why we have to act as a buddha. If you are not buddha, you cannot act as a buddha.
55:32
… And in the Dharma, the manifestation of his Essence, the Reality, the sea of Suchness, the boundless storehouse of excellencies; …
And next, we take refuge in the dharma. Dharma is the manifestation of its essence. The essence of being, that is so-called Buddhist dharma. And “the Reality”: the essence of beings is, in a sense, called the reality. Real reality; we can say so.
So the reality you live in is really essence of being. So you don’t know, you cannot touch it, you cannot pin down what reality is, […] what is the place you live in. It’s vast. The more you research, the more you don’t know. It’s very big, vast. That is reality.
So […] dharma is “manifestation of his essence,” [the] essence of beings, or sometimes it is called “Reality.” What is this? This is kind of a “sea of suchness.” Suchness is truth, or vastness of existence. So reality or essence of beings is really vast as the sea.
And also [dharma is] “the boundless storehouse of excellencies.” Wonderful things [are] in it.
So that’s why we have to practice patience. Under all circumstances, unfavorable or favorable conditions, anyway we have to practice patience, and we have to make effort, we have to take care of with discipline, and we have to practice meditation and wisdom.
Meditation means tranquilization. And wisdom is clear observation – in [Zen], sometimes [we say] vipassana. Meditation is called shamata; shamata is one-pointedness. So very naturally your mind, your body becomes tranquil, tranquilized. So meditation is the […] practice of tranquilization, and wisdom is clear observation, by which you can see the essence of human life, which is going up and down, up and down. So the core of existence, core of the human world, samsaric world, we can see it, by wisdom. So that’s why clear observation; we say vipassana.
So very naturally we have the “boundless storehouse of excellency.” That is dharma. That’s why, whatever happens, let’s learn the dharma, believe in the dharma, and devote yourself to the dharma, constantly. This is great encouragement.
59:42
Next,
… And in the Sangha, whose members truly devote themselves to the practice.
Even though there are buddha and dharma, we need the sangha, whos members are interested in practicing buddha and dharma. We need the human beings who live now, today. Otherwise, we cannot transmit, we cannot convey buddha and dharma to the next generation.
So that is sangha, “[whose members] truly devote themselves to the practice.” So sangha, members of Buddhism, are people who devote themselves to the practice, on the basis of Buddhist teaching.
1:01:00
So there are three [treasures]. Always the author has a great vow, [which is] why he has to write this book. He has a very profound vow of devoting himself to buddha, dharma, sangha. This is very important for this author, so he devotes himself with his life, to write this book. “To write this book” means to help all sentient beings. Not helping only the human intellect, but helping human intellect and human emotion and also human will. Intellect, emotion, and will. And then, the final goal is to be free from human intellect, human emotion, human will. That is the vow; to take refuge in the triple treasure.
So Buddhist belief is to believe [in] dharma. What do I mean, to believe in dharma? To believe in dharma is to take refuge in the triple treasure: buddha, dharma, sangha.
What is the buddha? Buddha is a person who constantly has something good, helping. Even just his presence is very helpful. That is buddha. And historically, Buddha is Gotama Siddhartha – Shakyamuni Buddha – who existed in human history. That’s why believe, we trust this person, and that this person tells us all sentient beings, all of you, are buddha, exactly the same as Buddha Shakyamuni. He proved this, twenty-five hundred years ago. So we trust, we believe in this historical person Shakyamuni Buddha, and simultaneously, next, we believe in his teaching, so-called “we are buddha.”
So if you believe in the dharma, very naturally there is a practice, that is we take refuge in the buddha, and we exist in this human world as a human being, but simultaneously something more than a human being. That is “holiness” – something like that. But it’s not good enough, because we have to believe in his teaching, the teaching of his life. That is the teaching, dharma.
And next, we have to devote ourselves to the sangha, people who are always practicing the teaching and believing in the buddha. This is the sangha. […] We take refuge in the people who exist and practice buddha […] and buddha’s teaching.
So that is the contents, quality of believing in dharma. That’s why [the] Triple Treasure is very important.
So Buddhist faith is not to believe in something divine, or “holiness.” But you have to believe in holiness and also the teacher’s teaching, and also the people who practice buddha and holiness and also his teaching. So very vast. […] Buddhist faith is very vast.
And Buddhist faith is very grounded in human life, because you have to believe [in] human beings who practice Buddha’s way, Buddha’s teaching. So that is the sangha. That’s why sangha is important.
1:06:43
May all sentient beings be made to discard their doubts, to cast aside their evil attachments, and to give rise to the correct faith in the Mahayana, that the lineage of the Buddhas may not be broken off.
“May all sentient beings be made to discard their doubts”: One point is, he takes a vow to take refuge in the Triple Treasure, that is the reason why he wants to let all sentient beings be made to discard their doubts. Human beings have lots of doubts – toward the essence of existence, and also the teaching about the essence of the beings. Lots of doubts. So he wants to remove their doubts.
“To cast aside their evil attachments”: human beings possess very strong evil attachments, to the self, and to its object. Very strong attachment, consciously or unconsciously. The more you practice and you study Buddhism, the more you realize how strongly your attachment is functioning.
And “to give rise to correct faith in the Mahayana.” So very naturally, to give rise to correct faith in the Mahayana. And that means to maintain the seeds of the Buddha, which all sentient beings possess. “Seeds of the Buddha” means seeds of universal life. “… may not be broken off.”
Okay. Do you have questions?
1:11:00
Person 5: Hojo-san? You said, “We’re already buddha, so we need to act like buddha.” We’re already buddha, and everything we do is the action of buddha. Is that right? If we’re already buddha, then everything we do is already the action of buddha.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm?
Person 5: So what do we need to try to do?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, that’s why we have to do it. But human beings don’t do it, actually. Don’t you think so? Trees, birds, and sky, winter, [are] working pretty well as buddha. But human beings don’t work in that way. Do you understand?
For instance, when you do zazen, that is simple zazen. Buddha means, if you are buddha, and then “you should act as a buddha in zazen” means … well, what do you mean by this? Zazen and you are not separated, zazen and you are interconnected, interpenetrated – having a great, wonderful created world there, created life there, between zazen and you. Very nice creation there, created life. But we don’t do it. Look at the trees and winter: wonderful creation there. But we don’t do it. We are always doing zazen, but [we’re] always complaining, and daydreaming, and always thinking, chasing after thoughts. Don’t you think so? We are always creating a gap between zazen and you, always.
So it’s very difficult to create universal life, created life. I say group creation, okay? [He chuckles.] Group creation. Sangha means by the sangha you have to have group creation, wonderful creation in life. That means each person must communicate very closely; don’t create a gap. But that is very difficult. If you live like this, very naturally you are fighting, you know? In many ways. Competing, always.
But look at the trees and birds, and winter: very naturally, there is wonderful creation there. That’s why we are really caught by the beauty of nature. Completely beyond human speculation. Why do we like nature? We like it … because we can see it. That’s a beautiful scene. We have [it] already, that’s why we can see that something beautiful which nature has. But actually, we don’t do it! That’s why we are really caught by nature and dream [of] that nature. At that time, we forget completely how to practice this. So always dreaming, and [being excited about] the beauty of nature. That’s why people want to go to nature, et cetera.
Well, we have to practice, anyway. We have to live our lives just like nature. That is called “act as a buddha.”
So that is, from day to day you have to practice, anyway. There is no… what would you say… no end. Day to day, you have to do it.