Blue Cliff Record Case 54: Yun Men Extends Both Hands
February 8, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Reader:
“Yun Men Extends Both Hands,” Case 54; Pointer:
Having penetrated through and out of birth and death, he sets his devices in motion. Perfectly at ease, he shears through iron and cuts through nails. Wherever he goes he covers heaven and covers earth.
But say, whose behavior is this? To test I’m citing this old case; look!
The case:
Yun Men asked a monk, “Where did you come here from?”
The monk said, “Hsi Ch’an.”
Yun Men said, “What words and phrases are there at Hsi Ch’an these days?”
The monk extended both hands; Yun Men slapped him once.
The monk said, “I’m still talking.” Yun Men then extended his two hands. The monk was speechless, so Yun Men hit him.
1:30
Katagiri Roshi: The Pointer:
Having penetrated through and out of birth and death, he sets his devices in motion.
Devices means living function, or living working, vivid working. So he set vivid working in motion; not idealistically. He uses living working as it is, beyond concept. That is that “he sets his devices in motion.”
“Having penetrated through and out of birth and death”: penetrates through birth and death is not to see birth and death objectively. Birth and death must be taken as your own problem of life and death.
Usually we deal with life and death objectively, in many ways. Penetrating means penetrating your skin, muscles, bones, and marrow, so there is no gap between life and death and you. Your skin manifests itself as really living function of life and death, exactly, beyond your speculation.
But generally speaking, we as human beings have difficulty understanding this, because of human consciousness. Trees, birds, nature – if you see nature, trees, birds, snow, the sunset, the morning sunrise – they manifest themselves as they really are. They have also mind, but their minds are very universal, fitting into certain circumstances from moment to moment. And their mind also functions in a sense instinctively.
Human instinct is almost the same as the instinct of trees, birds, but [it’s] a little bit complicated, because we have a different type of consciousness. And also this instinct functions connected very closely with memories, heredity, the six senses and also the seventh and eighth… Anyway, human consciousness is very complicated. So instinct doesn’t work alone, separate from human heredity and memories and consciousness. That’s why human instinct is very strong and also very simple in a sense, but very “sticky” – very sticky, and very complicated. We don’t know; it’s very interesting, because it’s connected.
But the instinct which the birds, trees, and nature possesses, functions in a simple way. That’s why if you see nature, we feel [it is] really beautiful – because our our instinct doesn’t work in that way. So if you see nature, you can see something which you have never experienced, which you have never seen before; that’s why it’s really impressive to you, it’s appealing to you. Because originally our nature is just like that – but we don’t do it, we don’t experience that. But nature, trees, birds, snows, winter – all things teach us. That’s why we love nature, we love wilderness, we love the sky, we love the sunset.
Human beings possess human consciousness, letting us always slip out of this simple function of the mind. But in good sense, we can really understand deeply the exquisite manifestation of existence, like trees, birds, streams, and mountains; like that.
And also we suffer a little bit from our life in order to seek for that exquisite manifestation of existence – so called buddha-nature, so-called universal life – which lets us fit to every circumstance and lets us live freely. So-called peace and harmony.
So we suffer a lot from our life in order to seek [this]. Because we reflect upon ourselves; we reflect upon our consciousness, we reflect upon everyday life, in many ways; that’s why we suffer. Trees, birds, streams, and nature don’t reflect upon [themselves], but the characteristic of human consciousness always lets us reflect upon our physical and mental actions. Whatever it is, always we reflect. That’s why we suffer. We cannot just pass by. We can always see the present and also the past and future. We can see for the long run, and we try to manage human life through the past into the future. We try to manage the whole world: how we should understand, how we should live, what human life is, what the human world is, extended into past, present, future. That is characteristic of human mind.
So, briefly speaking: we reflect upon ourselves like this, that’s why we suffer.
If you suffer and touch the bottom of suffering, the suffering turns into laughter; completely the opposite. So through the suffering, you can really be great laughter. If you touch the bottom of the suffering, you can be really great laughter. If you become great laughter, you can see, even slightly, the light of human life in the darkness. You can see the light in the darkness of human life, so-called suffering. And also at that time you can really appreciate human life. You can feel gratitude for your existence, others’ existence. And then if you have very deep gratitude, very naturally you can know how to deal with your life every day.
So that is almost the same as tree’s life, bird’s life, fitting into every circumstance. Almost the same. But, [it’s] quite different between trees and human beings. Human beings can behave just like birds, trees, mountains, rivers, and skies, but still there is very deep understanding. Carrying human suffering, and carrying human great laughter, carrying human reflections, and human gratitude – lots of things. Those things are really the content [or] quality of human life. So, quite different.
So that’s why we have to say, like the pointer says, “Having penetrated through and out of birth and death.”
When birth and death penetrates your life, what is life and death?
That life and death is the kind of [like] being on the top of a hundred foot high pole. Real life and death doesn’t give you any space to make an excuse for you – for your life, for your death. When your life comes, you really fit into life from moment to moment; when your death comes, you have to really fit in death. That means you are right on the top of that hundred foot high pool, where you cannot move an inch by your intellectual sense. Practically, you must be there. Whether you don’t like it or you like it, beyond like or dislike, the real penetration of life and death is… well, real reality that your life must be right on the top of a hundred foot high pole where you cannot move an inch.
So, life is very simple. Very simple means your consciousness should work in a simple way, as best as you can; like trees’, birds’, sky’s and mountains’ mind. Just simply work, as best as we can. But actually [it doesn’t], that’s why we try to make our mind work in a simple way. How? This is our practice; we try to figure out a way how to make it simple. This is our practice because our mind is not simple, but our mind can work simply just like a tree’s, bird’s, nature’s, because we like it, we are really caught by nature. That means the original nature of your mind is just like nature, but apparantly mind is complicated, that’s why we try to make it simple as best as we can. This is our practice.
Briefly speaking, “life is very simple” means, completely beyond whether you succeed in something or not, all you have to do is to achieve continuity of doing even small things, continually. If you can do [it], this is great life and death.
But our consciousness which is very complicated always expects something fantastic: so-called pros and cons, success and failure, loss and gain, et cetera. So those wishes and desires don’t make your mind simple.
The [problem] is that we don’t realize it: how your wishes and desires work strongly, and finally your life flies in the air with your wishes and desires. And finally you are bumping each other in the sky with the desires and wishes, hurting each other. [People don’t] know how to live, so [always] people are drifting [in the air with their life]; finally, they fall to the ground. That is called suffering.
So if you realize how strongly our wishes and desires work and let us go far from right now, right here – always we go far from [this] right moment – constantly what you have to do is just be present right now, right here, and be stable. Do something continually with stable mind, stable attitude. That’s all we have to do, basically – whoever you are. People [always] judge you in terms of pros and cons, success and failure; that’s why you are irritated if you are not successful. But basically, if you live like this, you really experience deeply human life.
So that is the “penetration” of life and death. Very simple. Very simple.
In other words, “penetration of life and death” is being right on the top of that hundred foot high pole, where you cannot move an inch but you cannot stay there. Right there, we have to do something. That means, in the koan it says, “Take one step.” One step means be present there and do [something] continually, even a small detail. That is to take one step.
If you keep going like this, you really learn, you really appreciate human life, you really see human life deeply. Because you can really see yourself directly as the problem of life and death. Not an intellectual problem; not the problem of life and death you can understand intellectually or philosophically; no.
But it’s very difficult to live like this; that’s why we have to study like this, and study the example which the buddhas and ancestors have shown us.
So, the pointer says, “having penetrated through and out of birth and death.”
Well, the other day I talked with somebody [about predicting] the future of the human world. If you predict the human world from this point, naturally most people may be disappointed, because we may see something dangerous. But if you stand up in the realm of the pessimistic way of life, you cannot see the optimistic aspect of human life, because you view human life pessimistically, so you are completely blind to the other aspect of human life. Of course, if you are blind to the other aspect of human life, you are completely [unable] to see the whole picture of the human world. You don’t see it. [You cannot see beyond pessimism or optimism].
The total in “total picture” means the problem of life and death should be taken as your own problem. That is the total picture of human life you can see. So if you become pessimistic, you can’t see the whole world. But on the other hand, if you stand up in the realm of the optimistic view on the human world, you don’t understand the pessimistic aspect. So, which would you like? Do you want to stand up in that, or this? Whichever [way] you stand up, it’s not good enough for us, because you always see the human world in terms of a certain angle, so-called pessimism or optimism. So you cannot see anything, much less can you see the problem of life and death as your own problem, as it is. You cannot see the very important problem of life and death.
So whatever we predict: prediction is prediction. You should accept prediction. [He chuckles.] Well, sometimes [say it]; sometimes don’t take it seriously. But don’t ignore it. And also, every day you cannot lean into either one of them, pessimism or optimism or neutral, you cannot. Every day your life must be right on the top of the hundred foot high pole. This is very serious, very realistic. You are there.
For instance, if I sit down here: no escape! I cannot stop talking. [He chuckles.] Whatever you say, whatever kind of criticism comes, I cannot stop; I have to do something which I have to do.
So moment after moment, the moment I am present in is completely a situation in which I am on the top of hundred foot high pole, and also I have to do [something] on the top of hundred foot high pole. That means keep my mouth shut and just do it. It’s pretty hard… but there is no other way. I cannot see myself or your situation in terms of a certain angle, so-called pessimism or optimism. I cannot. So all I have to do is, beyond pessimism or optimism or neutral, I am constantly on the top of the hundred foot high pole, and do something that is simple.
At that time you can understand pessimism or optimism or neutral, and also predictions. Because you can really penetrate every day, life and death, as it really is.
That’s why [it says], “Having penetrated through and out of birth and death, he sets his devices in motion.” That means you have to set your really living functions in motion. Not idealistically; if you understand living life, you have to make it alive.
So that is always you have to be on the top of the hundred foot high pole, according to the koan.
30:33
Perfectly at ease, he shears through iron and cuts through nails.
“Perfectly at ease”: If you are on the top of a hundred foot high pole, this is the attitude toward human life which is very simple. That means free. Just like nature, trees, birds, winter, summer.
And that is what? That is “he shears through iron and cuts through nails,” [which] means you have to completely cut off the intellectual functions. The moment when you think of it, it makes [it] difficult.
But you cannot ignore the thinking, because thinking is nothing but energy. So thinking is always coming [up] from the bottom of your life; regardless of whether you like it or dislike it, it’s coming. The [point] is, you have to deal with your thinking as simply as you can. That is your practice. That is really your practice. You cannot hate your thinking, you cannot attach to your thinking.
But how should you deal with thinking? That is “he shears through iron and cuts through nails,” because if you are on the top of the hundred foot high pole and also you have to do [something], this is completely beyond your intellectual sense. This is your reality – real reality you are present in every day. From now on, pay attention to that. Your situation everyday is exactly being on the top of a hundred foot high pole and do something. You cannot sit on [it] always. You climb the top of the hundred foot high pole by your effort, but next moment you have to [throw away] your effort which you have made and share your life with all sentient beings. That means what? Take one step forward.
That way is really “at ease, he shears through iron and cuts through nails.” You can learn this from nature; nature teaches us like this. That’s why we feel nature is exquisite, really beautiful.
33:50
Wherever he goes he covers heaven and covers earth.
I told you, the trees standing straightly in the mountains covered with snow in the severe [winter] weather in [Minnesota] is really beautiful, perfectly beautiful. We have never experienced it in San Francisco. [He laughs.] Of course, nature is nature wherever you may go, but nature manifests in a different way, exactly a different way. Everyone manifests yourself in a different way from moment to moment. You never repeat the same things, even for a moment. That’s why nature in this kind of weather is quite beautiful, which you have never experienced in other situations.
So [you see beauty] because the tree stands up straight by itself on the mountain but simultaneously its existence covers heaven and earth. It means behind the tree, nature is there, beautiful nature is there. Fitting into the sunset, fitting into the morning sunrise. And covered with white snow, birds; it’s really beautiful. So, tree is one, but it’s not one. Tree is one, but simultaneously behind the one, it is all. That’s why in Buddhism [we always say] “one in all, all in one.”
We can do it; we can deal with it just like this. Whoever you are, whether you are enlightened or [not] enlightened, it doesn’t matter, you can do it. How? Zazen is [the] simple way. Zazen is that you can do like this.
But say, whose behavior is this? To test I am citing this old case; look!
36:32
Yun Men asked a monk, “Where did you come here from?”
This is a very common question which always occurs in koans. But it’s not the usual question, because “from where do you come” is really pointing out to the source of existence you are present in.
If I [talk about] the human world, [we think our] existence comes from that source and returns to that source. “Source comes into this world; this world comes into source” – usually we say so. But it’s not something like that, because [it is] simultaneously there. There is no space to discuss “I come from the source of existence,” because I already am. So I have to see that source within me; within everyday life.
“Source” means you cannot see the human world in terms of your own view. I see the human word in terms of my point of view, but simultaneously I have to put aside my view and see the whole universe behind me, within me, outside of me. I don’t know where; but the universe is there. This is just like a tree. This is me.
This is a practice, not discussion. I have to take care of myself, understanding the human word and human life in terms of my view, but next moment I have to put aside my views, and then I have to get a taste really deeply of the whole nature within me, by which my life has been supported, consciously or unconsciously.
[Tape change.]
… “Where do you come from?” We come from the source. But if you say so in words, we are cheated by the words. So we don’t know; we don’t know what it means.
That’s why in the commentary it says:
Yun Men asked this monk, “Where did you come here from?” The monk said, “Hsi Ch’an.” This is direct face to face talk, like a flash of lightning.
So, the source and you, trees, nature, is exactly one – just like a flash of lightning. But human consciousness always separates; that is characteristic of human consciousness. So “where did you come here from?” means let’s see face to face. Let’s see face to face the problem of life and death; let’s see yourself directly. Not from a certain angle, or from certain teaching, certain isms… or from a certain group.
I talked in the Zen Center in San Francisco about the message of the Zen Master in Japan I heard from. He said to us always human beings have to belong to a group, in many ways; without belonging to a group you cannot exist in this world. So when you were born in this world you belonged to American society, and Minnesota society, and Minneapolis society. And finally, well, Zen Center in Minneapolis. If you don’t like that, you have to belong to some other group. If you don’t like that, you can belong to an I Ching group, or Yoga group. Or if you don’t like anything, you can belong to “No Group”… this is also a group. [Laughter.] Do you understand? [He laughs.] Remember this one. If you say, “I don’t care, I can live by myself, I don’t need a group, I don’t need anybody’s help” – you can say so, but it is already your life already belongs to people.
It’s very difficult to deal with yourself by yourself, always standing in your own world. Simultaneously you want to belong to somebody’s [group]. So if you don’t like philosophy, religion, et cetera, then you can belong to a group of people who are always chatting with each other, drinking wine and beer every day. This is also a group. A pretty good group.
But here it says whatever kind of group you belong to, it’s fine, but watch out! Because most of people are completely over-infatuated with [it], before you are conscious of [it]. It means, you become crazy. Okay? In other words, your life is contaminated, perverted, by the group, by the ideas, or isms. […]
That’s a very good suggestion for us. Even religion: we say, “Sangha is beautiful.” Idealistically we can always imagine what sangha is. But the actual situation of sangha is… what? It’s very complicated, because sangha itself is beautiful, but human beings have to take care of sangha, and human beings make the sangha complicated. Sangha itself is beautiful, but when the human beings deal with the sangha, it makes it complicated. It’s very complicated.
The question is where? Not with a sangha, not with the community, not with society – but with you, human beings.
That’s why we have to realize this. We very easily become crazy by the group, or ideas, or isms. Then if you [come] out from that group or community, you are very confused; you don’t know what to do. In other words, sometimes you have to go out of the group and you have to stand up by yourself. At that time you are really confused; you don’t know what to do.
I experienced this in the past. In the monastery, it’s pretty easy to practice: just to follow the schedule. 120 monks there, you know? 120 monks always encouraging me; so I thought, “My goodness, I attain the enlightenment, just like a buddha, a bodhisattva!” But when I came back to my temple, there were no 120 monks there; only I and my teacher, and the mountains and the graveyard behind the temple. So it was very difficult to practice in the same way as the monastic way; it’s very difficult. But I had to stand up by myself, and continue to live. It made me confused very much.
So, if you really become crazy about a group, that means you lose subjectivity, you lose yourself, because you don’t stand up by yourself. In other words you always see yourself or take care of yourself in terms of the group, community. There is no way to escape from that, you belong to the group; but you shouldn’t look at yourself in terms of a group, you have to look at [and learn about] yourself directly.
That’s why [this koan asks], “Where do you come from?” This question is very important for us.
Where do you come from? Do you come from the group? If you really depend on the group, you say, “I come from the group.” That means you are just like a robot. You don’t have subjectivity. That is a big problem. In other words, you always see or understand your life depending on the group or teaching in terms of a certain ism. Yes, it is important; we have to belong to the group, [or] teaching. You have to belong to the teaching, but real growth must be something beyond complete attachment to the teaching. That is very difficult, how to grow by yourself – but this is our practice. That’s why we have to practice.
48:38
So, Yun Men asked a monk, “Where did you come here from?”
The monk said, “Hsi Ch’an.”
Hsi Ch’an was one of Nansen Zen Master’s disciples, who lived between the 8th and 9th century. Nansen was the disciple of Baso, Ma Tsu Zen Master. […] So this monk had practiced under the guidance of Hsi Ch’an. […]
Yun Men said, “What words and phrases are there at Hsi Ch’an these days?”
[In other words,] “What did you learn?” “What did you learn” is also important to us.
What do you learn… from what? From something objective? Teaching? We have to [hook] the teaching, but growth is something real, which you have to take care of by yourself. But you have to [hook] it; that’s why it is difficult. How much you should work, how much you should depend on the teaching, or group, or community, and how much should you be independent from – that’s pretty difficult. For this, we have to wake up.
That’s why in Zen we say “kakusoku” (覚触). Kaku means “awareness,” “waking up.” Soku means “touching.” You have to wake up yourself and your life must be grounded. That is very practical; every day, we have to do it. Because there is always a contradiction.
51:12
The monk extended both hands; Yun Men slapped him once.
That is pretty good; the monk extending both his hands means “nothing.” He has to belong to the teaching, but he knows how to grow, independent from his teaching, and group, and teacher, et cetera.
That’s why, [as] I said before, he knows the perfect way of being on the top of a hundred foot high pole. On the top of a hundred foot high pole there is nothing which you have to think intellectually, because your whole body and mind must be there, exactly there, beyond your speculations, and do something. So he opened his hands. It means he really knows how to live, and he really knows enlightenment. He really knows how valuable his life is, being on the top of a hundred feet high pole – where there is nothing, but his life is really a leaping fish. But what is that? That is just opening up his hands.
But next moment, Yun Men slapping him means… well, this is a very important point. If you understand emptiness, or if you get a taste of freedom or happiness, we say, “Yes, it is [this way].” We can talk about it, we can be there, practically, we can demonstrate how happy you are, how free you are, in many ways, using words or without using words. Even doing gassho; exactly sincerely doing gassho is also just like extending your hands. But it is not exactly freedom, because you already sit on a chair [of] so-called freedom. That means already you are stuck. That’s why next moment he slapped him; that means, “Wake up!” You belong to the group and then you feel good; at that time, [you think,] “This is my life.” I don’t think this is your life, okay? [He chuckles.] Your life is complete beyond [whether] you feel good or you don’t feel good.
So if you feel good, anyway, fine – and then you have to slap yourself. “Wake up!” And then next moment, what should you should do? Your life must be grounded. It means, stand up there.
That’s why this Yun Men slapped him: “Wake up!” Or Rinzai also did like this. Rinzai said, “The Buddha nature comes in and out from your skin and muscle and bone. If you don’t see it, from now on, look at it.” But the monk said, “Where is that true nature coming in and out from me?” So immediately Rinzai took him and shook him. “How stupid you are; here it is. The true nature is there.” And then immediately he was speechless because he realized, consciously or unconsciously. His speechlessness means exactly he is right on the top of a hundred foot high pole where there are no words; quiet. Rinzai did it like this, by shaking him up like this. So no words; in other words, he was very surprised! He was very surprised, but that surprise is a perfect surprise; speechlessness. Astonishment, exactly perfect astonishment; nothing to say. That means, in a sense, touching the ground; touching the buddha-nature, touching what human life is, life and death.
But next moment, he pushes him away, because he is surprised where he is. “Oh, is that right?” Even though he doesn’t understand, immediately he follows; that means [to] accept that buddha-nature. If you accept something, you stay there, you are stuck. That’s why next moment he pushed him away. If you belong to the group, if you learn something from the teaching, you immediately feel good. If you feel good, immediately you are stuck by feeling good. That’s fine, that’s fine, but you are not free. Next moment, you have to wake up and ground your life.
Very often I hear American students always emphasize feeling good from zazen, from teaching, from yourself. It’s fine, but you cannot always stay in your feelings. Everyone has to belong to individual feelings, but you have to learn something more than that. Because nature is there. Tree always feels his own life through the cold weather. Everyone [does]. But next moment we have to wake up, because by waking up we have to learn the big scale of the world. That is nature behind you. For a human being it’s very difficult to do that, that’s why this Yun Men did it like this, slapping, or Rinzai pushed him away.
That’s the point which slapping him wants [to say]. It’s not violent. It’s not violent, okay?
58:58
The monk said, “I’m still talking.”
That means immediately he said, “I want to talk about it.” [He laughs.] Because immediately he knows what enlightenment is, what freedom is, from which he feels good, perfect. Simultaneously, Yun Men pushing him, waking him up, means completely [wanting] more freedom, going beyond his feelings. [Going beyond to] something more than individual feelings.
If you attach to nature from individual feelings, you cannot understand nature as-it-is, because that is your feeling. That nature you understand from your feelings is always changing. Day by day, it’s changing. It’s very difficult to understand nature as-it-is. But we cannot escape, that’s why you should feel something from nature; but next moment you shouldn’t be blinded by your feelings. So you have to wake up. That is a contradiction.
A medical student always emphasizes how you feel. That’s fine. But fine is not always fine; behind the fine, there is not-fine. Not-fine is always waiting behind fine. Do you understand? [Chuckles.] That’s why you have [the fine].
So it’s very difficult; you can’t always depend on your own feelings, you have to wake up from that. And then, next: what should you do? You have to realize it.
And the monk realized his own feeling of freedom; next moment Yun Men took him away from his feeling of freedom. That means total freedom, perfect freedom. So, [the monk] really wants to talk about it! He says, “I want to talk about it.” Here it says “I am still talking”; it means, “I want to connect with you. You know pretty well how to make human life free, and I know that, so I want to communicate with you.”
1:01:52
Yun Men then extended his two hands.
That means there are no words.
If you use certain words, or if we can communicate with each other in order to understand that perfect freedom through the words, through the custom of shaking hands, it’s not real communication. So finally, what should we do? Just opening his two hands; that means, exactly open. That is that exactly you have to be on the top of that hundred foot high pole, and Yun Men, and trees, and mountains, all sentient beings must be on the top of the hundred foot high pole, […] with their best. At that time, we can communicate perfectly.
So, he opens his hands.
The monk was speechless, so Yun Men hit him.
And then this monk really understands, “Wow, that’s it, that’s it!” So, he is speechless. Then immediately that is already he is stuck; he was stuck by speechlessness, his understanding. So next moment, Yun Men slapped him again. “Wake up!”
So we have to always do it. Do you understand this one? I always do it. What is enlightenment? What is the bodhi-mind? What is the practice? It’s very interesting. If you practice like this, if you continue to practice every day, on the every day basis, even a small detail, so-called sitting in the morning… every day, if you do it, you can learn something fantastic, which you have never seen before! Not only for two years, okay? Three years, five years, ten years, thirty years; it doesn’t matter. Continue to do it.
Always we have to continue to belong to something, and belong to the ideas and the views on the human world, and the teachings, and the groups, et cetera. But constantly you have to wake yourself up, and then your life must be grounded. When you wake up, don’t be quick, next moment you are crazy about idea again, okay? [He laughs.] So, you have to wake yourself up, and then next, your life must be grounded, instead of flying in the air.
It’s very easy for us to fly in the air, or to go down to the earth, or hell. Pretty easy. Do you understand “go down to hell”? It means you become melancholy, pessimistic, et cetera. So you cannot do it. More or less, you have to go up or go down. More or less, everyone [does]. And then we have to come back to the ground, and your life must be grounded, every time. That is called bodhi-mind: arousing bodhi-mind. Let’s come back, let’s come back; wake up, wake up. Belong to the group… wake up! Next moment, wake up. And then next your life must be grounded. That is practice. Practice means how can you keep your life balanced, between going up and also […] freedom; peace and harmony.
How can you keep balance? That’s pretty hard. So in order to wake yourself up, your consciousness must be clear, always. Your consciousness works clearly, always, otherwise consciousness becomes blind pretty easily. That’s why we have to always wake up. Alright? And then next, your life must be grounded. That is let’s do something, even a small detail. Going beyond your [good] feeling or bad feeling, let’s do it, let’s walk. This is the best way to penetrate through life and death. Facing directly the problem of life and death. This is the best way.
Do you have a question?
1:07:44
Question: You said we have to stand up there without being attached to the teaching. Does that also mean we have to stand up there without being attached to the teacher?
Katagiri Roshi: Um… [He laughs.]
I don’t mean you shouldn’t attach to the teacher. Well, that is the pre-existing ideas. In many ways, you need a teacher. Okay? But on the other hand, you cannot attach to the teacher too much, because you lose sight of yourself; you cannot wake yourself up.
Read the Record of Things Heard: Dōgen Zenji says even the ancestors and buddhas are not always right. Dōgen Zenji [isn’t being] arrogant, ignoring Buddha’s teaching or ancestors’ teaching; it means he suggests to us to wake up constantly. We have to depend on the teachings given by ancestors and buddhas, but we have to constantly wake up.
Wake up means to grow, practically. You have to grow practically. In order to grow, you can’t mold your life into a certain teaching or ism. We have to grow independently from the teachings and the certain isms.
But you have to forget. That a little bit difficult. That’s why we have to find out this way how to keep your life balanced between depending on the teaching and [being independent] of the teaching. Alright? That is your practice. I don’t know how. [He laughs.] But you can learn.
Questioner: So if we’re continuing to grow, does that mean that Shakyamuni’s teaching itself is continuing to grow?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Questioner: And that the dharma lineage itself is continuing to grow and mature?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. Yes.
We have to grow, we have to be mature, because life is already mature. If life is already mature, that’s why we have to take time to make [our] life mature. Alright? Do you understand?
1:11:00
Question: You said about the nature of a tree? What is the nature of a human being? Is it same as buddha-nature?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Well, I just use the term “nature.” Because nature shows us something more than we think, you know?
I don’t know how to say it. Do you understand “nature”? Well, nature means… nature is nature, anyway. [He laughs.] I don’t know how to say it.
Questioner: If you put the seed, it may grow. And if it’s the tree’s seed, it becomes tree. Well what I thought is, when a human being is born and brought up in some society, some of us become, in some points it’s good, but still worrying about the past and future. Is there a real human nature, or there is just an immature yet?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure, there is a human nature. Yes, there is. There is a human nature, in the same [way] as nature of the tree, nature of the bird. Yes, [there] is. But nature must be shown by a certain form, so-called tree, so-called bird. Do you understand? Nature itself doesn’t have any form or color. It has no color, no smell. That is nature. Do you understand what I mean?
Questioner: Okay.
Katagiri Roshi: But it’s very difficult to realize it, that’s why this nature manifests itself as a form of tree, form of bird, form of a moth, something like this. The same applies to human beings. So nature manifests itself as human body, human mind.
And then if you have a form of human beings, human body, and the form of a tree, well, it must grow. In order to grow, it takes time. We need the time. If you take the time, that means you are already in the dualistic sense, because time is going from the past to the future, right? That you need the time in order to grow means you must be in the dualistic world, in the time process. So very naturally, you suffer.
Trees, birds also suffer, but they don’t say anything to us. But if you have a mind, well, you can see.
Is that alright?
Questioner: [Yes.]
1:14:40
Question: If what you just said, if in order to grow you have to be in time, which means you are in a dualistic sense, does this mean that while you are growing you can’t be in that awake state? Because you were saying, talking about the mind… doing this, and then having to be awakened out of it right back into the presence, and so I thought that what you just said sounded like when you were growing you couldn’t be just in the present. Would you explain, please? [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: “You grow” means that you are always living in the time process; you know, the stream of time, moment after moment. That means you can understand through the form of your body. And then you understand the growth through the form of your human body, human mind, and then say, “This is my life.” Okay? But it’s not good enough, because you understand your life in terms of the so-called time process, so that is a little bit small, narrow understanding. So through the growth of your life, then you have to see the bigger scale of the world, so-called nature, which has no color, no smell, no form. That is called the universe in the ten directions, the whole universe – we say so. Or, buddha-nature; we say so. Anyway, we have to see the bigger scale of the world where? Within the growth of your life.
Questioner: So if I’m thinking growth of my life, and just thinking that, then I have to experience time.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, experience; you can feel, you can touch, anyway, because it’s very clear. You know, from moment to moment you can do something and then you grow and you can have a result. And then you can understand from your six senses, and also feeling and emotions. And then we say, “This is my life.” This is fine, but you have to wake up and you have to push yourself away a little bit, and see the bigger scale of the world. Okay?
Questioner: Okay. Thank you.
Katagiri Roshi: So practice is that we have to do like this, constantly like this. And then also when you do this, that is called enlightenment. Because it’s life; it’s really alive.
Questioner: So it always goes back and forth.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, back and forth, through your head. [He laughs.] That’s why I said “flashing lights”. It’s always flashing lights at the street intersection. You stop [there]; “stop” is just [words], you know? You have to stop actually. And then next moment, flashing light there. Yellow flashing light, blue and red, and also small cars, big cars, and animals… lots of flashing lights there. And then it makes you busy. But actually you have to stop.