Blue Cliff Record Case 53: Pai Chang’s Wild Ducks
January 25, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
0:00
Katagiri Roshi: The fifty-third case: “Pai Chang’s Wild Ducks”. [Robert,] would you read the pointer and case.
Reader:
The whole world does not hide it – his entire capacity stands alone revealed. He encounters situations without getting stuck – with every move he has the ability to assert himself. In his phrases there’s no partiality – everywhere he has the intention to kill people.
But say, in the end, where do the Ancients go to rest? To test I’m citing this old case: look!
Case:
Once when Great Master Ma and Pai Chang were walking together they saw some wild ducks fly by. The Great Master asked, “What is that?” Chang said, “Wild ducks.” The Great Master said, “Where have they gone?” Chang said, “They’ve flown away.” The Great Master then twisted Pai Chang’s nose. Chang cried out in pain. The Great Master said, “When have they ever flown away?”
( From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary.)
Katagiri Roshi: Zen master Ma Tsu in this case was one of the disciples of Nangaku Ejō (Nanyue Huairang); in Japanese we call him Baso Zen Master. Pai Chang was one of the disciples of Baso, Ma Tsu Zen Master; [they are both famous]. This is a conversation between Zen Master Ma Tsu and Pai Chang when they walked together.
The pointer says,
The whole world doesn’t hide it – his entire capacity stands alone revealed.
“Whole world” means the truth. Truth is that which exists constantly, beyond whether you accept or refuse, whether you believe in it or not, whether you take it or throw it away. This is truth. So that truth is constantly omnipresent wherever you may go. That’s why it says “the world doesn’t hide it”: it is always manifested, wherever it may go. How? It always manifests itself as each phenomena: trees, birds, rivers, human beings. That’s why it says here the “whole world doesn’t hide it – his entire capacity stands alone revealed.” So “his entire capacity” means the capacity of the whole world, the capacity of the truth. The capacity of the truth manifests itself within individual life: within the life of trees, within the life of birds.
He encounters situations without getting stuck – with every move he has the ability to assert himself.
In order to assert yourself, you have to see thoughts [or] phenomena which are manifested in the light – and also phenomena are not phenomena, because phenomena are based on the truth, equality. Which [is the meaning of] “the whole world doesn’t hide it”. So “he encounters the situation without getting stuck”: you cannot be stuck with either one of them.
So-called phenomena: if you see phenomena, you cannot believe in the phenomena which is something real. If you see the form of dance, you cannot be stuck with only the form of the dance. You have to see something more than the form of dance shown by the performance [or the] dancer: that is called “beauty of art”. But we don’t know what the beauty of art is, because it doesn’t have any color, or smell. Only when you have your own eyes, you can see it. If you don’t have [your own eyes], you cannot see it. That’s why the dancer, and also the audience who are interested in dance, very naturally try to practice: to understand how beautiful dance is.
In order to practice, even if you don’t understand, you have to continually see the dance, again and again. This is one of the practices as a dancer: you have to constantly practice every day, according to the teacher’s suggestions. Regardless of whether you have to do it this way or that way, you have to practice. Because you as a dancer cannot perform dance [as] just a form of dance; you have to perform dance as a form but simultaneously as the beauty of dance within the form of dance.
That’s why you cannot be stuck with either one of them. You cannot always manifest the beauty of dance without the form of dance; so you have to use the form of dance which is constantly changing, appearing and disappearing, just like a bubble.
If the form of dance is just like a bubble, is it not so important? Can you ignore it? No, you cannot ignore it. So you have to use [it] with your best, you have to perform the forms of dance as they really are. And then you have to manifest the beauty of dance.
So that is why it says here, “He encounters situations without getting stuck.” Whatever you do: washing your face, even walking on the street… and encountering the so-called severe winter weather, [like] trees on the mountains in the severe weather. You cannot handle the severe weather, so-called Minnesota winter, according to your feeling and emotions. If you deal with winter like this, you cannot live here. [Laughter.] But make your mind calm and see the severe winter. It’s beautiful! You have never known it before.
I have been already ten years in Minnesota: gradually I understand. [Laughter.] I love very much severe winter. And each different change of the seasons are really beautiful in Minnesota.
So you have to see severe winter in terms of your emotions and feelings, but simultaneously you have to see the winter with the whole universe, the rhythm of nature. That is beautiful; it’s really beautiful. Because it’s completely beyond your feelings and emotions, et cetera.
So, “He encounters situations without getting stuck – with every move, he has the ability to assert himself.” And then at that time, wherever you may go, when you are in the severe winter you can really have the ability to assert yourself, if you understand severe winter in terms of your feelings and also beyond your feelings. Because even if one tree always manifests itself as it really is, simultaneously it shows the huge rhythm of nature. That’s why if you see the trees, you really feel [it is] beautiful, and appreciate it.
So very naturally, if you understand like this – if you understand trees, severe weather, and autumn, summer, spring, like this – you really can have a great ability to assert yourself. That is what is called rest; peace. That’s why the last sentence says:
…. in the end, where do the Ancients go to rest?
In other words, where is the peace? Where is the real relaxation?
I went to the college two days ago to talk about relaxation. [He laughs.] Well, anyway, you have to research: what is real relaxation? What is real peace? Even if intellectually you understand pretty well – if I say [it] again and again, if you listen to it like this, then you really understand it – but still, it’s pretty hard for us to get the peace and rest and relaxation. Where is it?
This is our practice, every day. When you stand up, there is peace, real relaxation there. When you wash your face, there is perfect rest, perfect peace, perfect harmony, relaxation there. And then, you can really assert yourself, appreciate yourself. From this situation, you can really feel gratitude.
Otherwise, it’s very difficult to find the relaxation. Even though you try to have relaxation through exercise, and jogging, and from the diet, et cetera, still you don’t have real rest or real peace, real harmony, relaxation.
So in your whole life, you have to research where is rest, where is the peace.
In his phrases there is no partiality –
So, whatever you say, “in his phrases there is no partiality” means his words directly hit the human heart. […]
“Phrases” means not only the words, but also your actions with your body, your actions with your mouth or with your silence, or with your mind. This is all actions, all phrases. Even silence has lots of phrases, words. So, silence is really [piercing], hitting people’s hearts, if you practice yourself on an everyday basis, understanding trees and also the whole nature behind the trees. At that time, even though you directly face the trees without saying [anything] – without composing a poem, just standing up – [still] people are really impressed by the trees, people are really moved by your presence.
… everywhere he has the intention to kill people.
“To kill people” means to awaken the people, to awaken to people and also to make their life alive. That is “to kill”: to cut off the kind of entanglements of human delusions, and then let him go straight. “Let him go straight” means to stand up straight and make their life alive. When he washes his face, he has to awaken to his situation, his circumstances, and stand up straight, walk straight. That is completely to “kill” people, because you cannot insert your own ideal, your own standard […] into it.
But say, in the end, where do the Ancients go to rest? To test I am citing this old case: look!
19:27
Once when Great Master Ma and Pai Chang were walking together they saw some wild ducks fly by. The Great Master asked, “What is that?” Chang said, “Wild ducks.” The Great Master said, “Where have they gone?” Chang said, “They’ve flown away.” The Great Master then twisted Pai Chang’s nose. Chang cried out in pain. The Great Master said, “When have they ever flown away?”
This is a simple story, a pretty usual story.
Who can say why Pai Chang Zen Master asked like this? Could you say something about why he asked like this? [Why] Zen master Ma Tsu and Pai Chang were just walking together, and he asked like this?
If you read the agamas, Shakyamuni Buddha also teaches like this: according to circumstances and opportunity when they meet. For instance, when Shakyamuni Buddha walked with a disciple by the river, and they saw a whirlpool in the river, he pointed to the whirlpool and said [something] about human suffering. Buddha explains like this, and also this case is the same thing: Zen master Ma Tsu and Pai Chang walk together, see the wild ducks, and he uses the circumstances and opportunity to talk about… what? Can you say?
[Silence.]
Anything is okay… [Laughter.]
Someone: Maybe something about impermanence. Chang says they are flying away. But Ma says, are they really?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Pretty good.
Do you have an idea?
Someone: Well, it’s like the case a couple back where he said, “This is it,” and he says, “What is that?” Pai Chang says wild ducks.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes… but what is that?
[Laughter.]
Someone: Wild ducks.
Katagiri Roshi: Wild ducks. In other words, can you say [something] about the “what is it” or “duck” [in different words]?
Someone: When he indicates the wild ducks floating away … he indicates impermanence. But when he turns to him and tweaks his nose, and says “when do they fly away,” it indicates that although situations are always fluid, they have a certain sameness. In other words the situation is always moving, but there is a sameness there. […]
Katagiri Roshi: Um, yes, that’s a possibility. That’s pretty good.
The pointer says here, I explained, the first line says, “The whole world does not hide it – his entire capacity stands alone revealed.” That means the truth is no colors, no smells, but according to the Sandokai, “the spiritual source shines clearly in the light”. That means that truth is no color, no smell, but that’s why the truth can manifest itself everywhere. With the table, with the human beings… that’s why he says, “entire capacity stands alone revealed.” Whatever it is, it’s alive.
So that is a point of this koan. Master Ma-tsu really wanted Pai Chang to awaken to that situation, that point: the whole truth. “Truth” is really vague; you don’t understand what the truth is, you cannot grasp it. But it’s working. It’s not something apart from us, it’s always manifested, functioning with us, with all sentient beings. That point [is what] Zen Master Ma Tsu wanted to say.
So of course you can understand the flying away is implication of impermanence; that’s fine. But this is why the pointer says it like this.
So, from this point, wild duck is the implication of truth. “The whole world doesn’t hide it”: it’s always manifested in everywhere. “The spiritual source shines clearly in the light”: light means phenomena; [it is] in the phenomena, always. And the Sandokai says, “The branching streams flow into the darkness.” Darkness means the truth. So always interconnected, interpenetrated, simultaneously.
And another point is: the truth, the spiritual source, shines clearly in the phenomena – so that means truth is always existing in the phenomena – simultaneously, “phenomena always flows into the darkness” means always truth. So you cannot grasp the phenomena as phenomena, because it’s always flowing into the darkness, truth. It means all phenomena – human body, human mind – no mind, no colors, […] no eyes, no ears. We always chant [this]. Very naturally, strictly speaking, human body, human mind, all sentient beings, flow into darkness – that means the truth. So-called emptiness – or emptiness means boundlessness, or countlessness, or eternity, we can say. Or, full presence. We can say so. Full presence, full working, full dynamic working – that is the source, spiritual source.
So you cannot grasp it: “this is a nose,” “this is a wild duck”. Both truth and wild duck, wild duck and also Pai Chang, [are] always working together.
Working together – where? Always working together, interconnected, interpenetrated – you cannot separate them. But where is the point which you cannot separate? Where is it? You cannot separate truth or phenomena. Where is it?
Someone: Only in how we perceive it. You know, through mind we create a dualistic gap.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: So in that way, we separate truth and phenomena. We say, “this is it.”
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. That’s why beyond that oneness – where is it?
Someone: Intersection of time and space? Right here, right now?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure! That’s fine. What is the intersection? Where is the intersection?
Someone: Right here.
Katagiri Roshi: Right here! Pretty good. Right here and now, that is moment. That moment is – if all things come together at a moment, and then within a moment, what is the point? What is the moment?
[Laughter.]
Someone: Just this.
Katagiri Roshi: Just this! Nothing. You cannot pin down “this is a wild duck” or “this is Pai Chang”; you cannot say so. Just the moment. Is the moment moving pretty slow – do you think so? [Laughter.] Or pretty quick? At super-speed.
So, if you think the moment through your head, you can create the length of the moment. At that time, it’s too late to understand the moment as it really is. Because if you think the moment through your head, it’s already length of the moment, or width of the moment. The real moment, where the wild duck and Pai Chang come together, working together – there is no length, no width of moment.
What is this? No length, no width. The moment – what is this? Of you, of the wild duck – what is this?
Someone: That oneness beyond the words. […] Action.
Katagiri Roshi: Action. Yes. Very undefiled action. Action in a pure sense; exactly.
In other words, moment is just like a bottle filled with water. And then moment is very pure: no colors, no smell. And also, the undefiled practice is just you can put a drop of red ink into it – that is your actions. So the whole moment, simultaneously, all becomes red. So, moment is very moment, but the whole world becomes red. In other words the whole world is the truth. The truth is omnipresent, just like a bottle filled with water. Even if you shake it, it doesn’t move, because it’s filled completely. That is the truth – we say omnipresent. Wherever you may go, it’s there.
So it doesn’t move, actually. But actually it moves, because it appears in everything: tables, human beings, et cetera. So, when you put a drop of red ink, the moment, immediately the whole world becomes red. That is your action. Your action is red, white, blue… you can put any kind of action. Because the whole world is completely emptiness, boundlessness; just like life energies.
So, completely beyond words, it is just undefiled practice, undefiled actions, human action. That is called shujo: refined practice, refined human action.
[…] In order to awaken that point, so-called undefiled practice, Zen Master Ma Tsu wanted Pai Chang to know what undefiled practice is. So he twists his nose. And then he screams “ouch.” That screaming “ouch” is one of his undefiled practices. Beyond “the wild has duck flown away”, or “the wild duck is within Pai Chang” – whatever you say, it is still an idea.
“Wild duck has flown away”, means, in a sense, truth is omnipresent. So whatever it is, truth is always moving. Wherever you may go. But “that truth is not flown away” completely means it doesn’t separate from you, because that wild duck as truth is always present in individual life.
Where is it both come together? [Where do] wild duck and human being come together? This is a moment, or we say “real reality you are present in.” Real reality is exactly there. So that’s why you cannot understand exactly what’s going on there.
But at best as we can, we have to make our mind calm and know it. This is our responsibility too, okay? But on the other hand, we don’t understand it exactly, because [of the bottomlessness] of human life.
But you cannot leave everything to the bottomlessness of human life; no. If you do that, your life becomes messy. You have to know what’s going on, with your best.
So twisting his nose is an implication of awareness of real reality, the moment: where the truth and phenomena come together, interpenetrated, interwoven, interacting constantly, dynamically.
[Tape change.]
… question is, are trees the moment or real reality, where a tree stands straight in the mountains in severe winter days, with real reality, completely beyond the word, combination of “the truth” or “phenomena” or “severe winter”, you can’t say so. Nothing to say.
But if you see the trees, exactly you can see the tree as a tree, but simultaneously you can see whole world. That’s why you can see the exquisitely beautiful being of a tree; because trees’ life always tells us what real reality is, what the moment is.
So, within a moment, there is no excuse, no word. But no word constantly teaches us how beautiful it is. Teaching about what? Truth. The big world, so-called nature, rhythm of nature, and also the tree’s individual life. Both are simultaneously there; interconnected, interpenetrated. That’s why, even if you don’t understand, if you are a human being, you are really moved by this tree.
What is that real reality, what is the moment of the tree? Moment of the tree is just to stand up. So, it’s very pure practice: just stand up. Constantly just achieving continuation of just standing. Constantly. That’s very simple practice. But it’s beyond your feeling – beyond the feeling of the tree, feeling of the weather. Anyway, standing. That is so-called beauty of art, beauty of nature. We can see that.
41:49
So finally:
The Great Master said, “When have they ever flown away?”
So you cannot say when. Where is the wild duck? Where is Pai Chang? The moment where you think so, the wild duck is gone. [He chuckles.] If you don’t say so, the wild duck is also gone. [He laughs.] And finally, [you have] nothing to do. The basic nature of real reality [where] you are standing there is completely no comment. All you have to do is, you just be there.
How do we know? It’s pretty hard. That’s why the Zen master twists his nose, and immediately crying and pain comes up. That is really pure, undefiled practice; completely beyond. Does that sound come from the wild duck? That sound comes from where? Pai Chang? No way. If you think so, that is your speculation. [It’s] just a scream.
Well, [if you think] “just a scream” means “just scream” – wherever you may go, you just scream. You cannot do that. We have to think about when you have to scream or when you shouldn’t scream. But sometimes, you can scream. Because if you scream, in a pure sense, the scream is beautiful. It makes you alive; it makes you awaken to [it].
44:05
The Verse:
Wild ducks —
Who knows where they are?
Ma Tsu saw them coming and they had words with each other—
He told all about the scene of the clouds on the mountains and the moon over the sea.
As before Chang didn’t understand, but said, “They’ve flown away.”
Pai Chang wanted to fly away,
But Ma Tsu held him fast.
Speak! Speak!
Wild ducks —
That is wild ducks, exactly wild ducks, pointing out what human life is.
Who knows where they are?
Wild duck? Who knows?
If the truth is within you – who knows? Can we know the truth? Mm-mmm. (No.) “The truth knows the truth”? Oh, of course… but what’s that? What does it mean? “Truth knows the truth” – what does it mean?
It’s not a matter of discussion. “Truth knows truth” is [that] you have to just [be full] aliveness of your life at the moment. Real reality, that’s all.
So finally, if you think it, immediately the question arises: “Who knows?” “Who knows” is – who knows? “Who knows” is nothing to pin down. Only the question is left: who knows?
But “who knows” is a really good suggestion of what real reality is.
Ma Tsu saw them coming and they had words with each other,
So for Ma Tsu Zen Master, he knows pretty well what the wild ducks are. And also the wild ducks have lots of words – even though the wild ducks have no colors, no smells, no form, so-called truth. But he knows; Ma Tsu Zen Master knows pretty well. Even silence: Ma Tsu Zen Master knows how many words silence has. But if you don’t have eyes to see the significance of silence, you don’t see the [many] words within the silence.
He told all about the scene of the clouds on the mountains and the moon over the sea.
What kind of words do the wild ducks have? […] Zen Master Ma Tsu knows: interconnected, interpenetrated with phenomena, so-called Pai Chang. So “he told all about the scene of the clouds on the mountains and the moon over the sea” – that means the real, dynamic rhythm of the whole world: mountains, rivers, clouds, skies. Like [what is] behind the trees standing in the mountains: the tree is not only the one tree, it is the whole word. [The whole world] is alive within the tree. That’s why the tree has lots of words. He can talk with this tree.
As before Chang didn’t understand, but said, “They’ve flown away.”
Because always the truth is moving, omnipresent – whether or not you know or you don’t know.
Pai Chang wanted to fly away,
Because Pai Chang knows pretty well who he is, and simultaneously who is Pai Chang, what is the truth within [him]. So if he understands the truth within him, he doesn’t want to stay with the truth. He doesn’t want to stay with his awareness of the truth; he wants to be free from it. If you get a Ph.D. you want to be free from the Ph.D., because you have to work with the people.
But Ma Tsu held him fast.
So very naturally Pai Chang wanted to fly away, but immediately Ma Tsu held him fast, because even though you want to be free from it, [still] you cannot forget that Ph.D degree. So you have to keep the Ph.D., but you cannot stay with the Ph.D.; you have to throw it away, but you cannot forget it. That is the real reality: where you are, how you work with the people. Without forgetting the Ph.D., but being free from Ph.D. – and then how you can share your life with people?
That is where? That is a moment. That is a real reality.
How? That is undefiled practice. Exactly.
So Ma Tsu held him fast and immediately said:
Speak! Speak!
“Speak” means work. Share your life with the people.
Okay. [Is there a question?]
52:07
Question: Hojo-san? Before you were making an analogy about how our action colors the whole world; you were talking about water in a bottle, if you put red in it, simultaneously the water becomes red. So I was wondering, if we direct ourselves towards saving all sentient beings, does that mean then that the whole world is directed towards saving all sentient beings?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. The whole world. If you save yourself, the whole world is saved.
That’s why I say, if you become a Buddha, or if you have your own eyes to see everything as a Buddha. Buddha means you should see the tree as it is, but simultaneously you have to see the whole world. You know? At that time, that is called Buddha. Because the whole world, the whole [of] nature and trees working dynamically – we don’t know what it is; anyway, dynamically it’s working. That is called Buddha. That Buddha is philosophically emptiness, because [there is] nothing to pin down. But practically speaking, or strictly speaking, or realistically, the truth, whole nature, and trees [are] working together.
So if you have eyes to see that, you can save yourself. Simultaneously, you can save the tree. And simultaneously you can save whole nature.
It’s not abstract. It’s a really practical, practical way.
Same person: Well then, can I ask another question?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: He’s saying that, like the tree standing on the mountain in the middle of severe winter, [it] just manifests the truth itself. It just stands there. So I wonder about people who we might think are living in self-delusion, living like maybe in the realm of greed, anger and self-delusion. For an example, let’s take like a wino on Hennepin Avenue. We might think that he’s living in delusion. But is that wino, too, then manifesting truth? And just standing up there, you know, just as he stands there, drinking himself…
Katagiri Roshi: Who is…?
Someone: A drunkard.
Same person: Yeah, let’s say a drunkard.
[Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, totally speaking, he’s also manifesting the truth. So if you have eyes enough to see the broad scale of the universe, well you can learn a lot from that drunkard. Temporarily, for a certain period of time, he is drunk. But I don’t mean he loses the truth. I don’t think so.
For instance, when you climb the mountains. If you see the mountain in that distance, it’s beautiful, and then you want to climb the mountain. But if you climb the mountain, you don’t feel [it’s] beautiful, because [it’s] hard work, and you don’t like it, and the stones hurting your legs, and so you don’t like the mountain. But I don’t mean the beauty of the mountain is lost. It’s still there. Don’t you think so?
Someone: Is that why Pai Chang wanted to run away?
Katagiri Roshi: Oh… Pai Chang knows pretty well the total situation.
Same person: But what you just said about not liking the mountain while you’re climbing it.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. He knows what the mountain is, who is climbing. But all he has to do is completely devote himself to climbing the mountain, becoming one with the mountains. It means he should forget himself. That means fly away. He should forget himself, becoming one with the mountain’s rhythm, life.
But on the other hand, Zen Master Ma Tsu holds him, grasps him, because he cannot forget himself who is climbing the mountain. Don’t you think so?
So I am here, climbing the mountain, so I cannot forget myself. But if I want to know the real rhythm of life or mountain’s life, I have to completely devote myself fully to the mountain’s life, constantly. That means fly away; I should fly away. That means forget the wild ducks; flown away. But on the other hand the Zen Master grasps him, because don’t forget you.
So “you are there”, “fly free from you” – [that contradiction], but both completely working together. Where? That is real reality, or moment. You have to be there, you have to act there.
That is pretty hard because you have to balance both. How can you balance? Where? Not in the intellectual sense; right in the moment. That’s why it’s pretty hard. That is so-called practice. We have to practice.
59:15
Question: Hojo-san, you said when you save yourself, simultaneously you save all beings. Is that different than the Bodhisattva vow to allow all beings to cross over first?
Katagiri Roshi: Same thing.
Same person: The Bodhisattva vow seems to be saying that all other beings cross over first – I mean, allowing all beings to be saved before the self, or the bodhisattva.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. Naturally.
1:00:00
Someone: If I’m not here, then no [world] exists, right? For me?
Katagiri Roshi: Your own world? Your own world gone?
Same person: I’m thinking that you are saying the phenomena – it seems to me phenomena is because you feel or accept or anything, that’s why there is phenomena.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. So the world you can see through your six consciousnesses, this is phenomena. Okay?
Same person: Okay. That’s the real world.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, real world… well, I don’t know if it’s the real world. [Laughter.]
Same person: Yeah, I mean, all I can get to, that’s [the] world.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, your six consciousnesses believe it is the real world. But strictly speaking it’s not real, it’s provisional.
Same person: Oh.
Katagiri Roshi: The provisional world. [He laughs.] But the provisional world… even though you say the world is provisional, well, it’s there. That’s why you can’t ignore [it]. You have to take care of the provisional world, completely beyond whether it is important or it is not important, because the provisional world exists here. Do you understand that one?
Same person: I mean not only that, but because I’m here and so I can see it exists.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. That is provisional existence.
Same person: Mm-hmm.
Katagiri Roshi: And then what is your question?
Same person: Well, my question is, I mean, saving others is the same as saving yourself. So I thought, since the whole world is yours, I mean, since […] all the phenomena […] exist for you because you are here, and making yourself more comfortable is making… well, like saving other people also makes your world better.
Katagiri Roshi: In terms of Buddhist teaching, we don’t have a certain view, so-called “world exists first, before your birth.” Okay?
Same person: Okay.
Katagiri Roshi: “… And then you can join the world, and then, so-called birth.” We don’t have such an idea.
Same person: Oh, okay. You don’t…
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, no.
Same person: Or appear as you…
Katagiri Roshi: Simultaneously. When you are born, the world appears. Simultaneously.
So, from this point, when you are born, “the world is here” means that is your world. It is not “for” you. It is already you create your world.
Same person: Right. I mean, not for me, but that world is [what] I create.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. You create. So, do you understand what “the world you create” means? This is very important for us. Everyone creates [the world]. Here are ten people: each person creates this world. It means each person has a different idea. Alright? I can see everybody, like this, but I can see everyone in terms of my karma: my point of view, my taste, my feeling, et cetera. Do you understand? That means you are not you; you are me. [He laughs.] You are Katagiri. Ten Katagiris are there. Do you understand?
It is very true! That’s why if you say one word to me, [even if] other people don’t hear that word, [still] I am very sensitive to that word and immediately I become mad at [you]. So, I always create my world, and you create also your world. So, here are ten, twenty different worlds here. That means you are not separate [from] each other. Because I create my own world means all of your worlds are completely included in my world.
So, you are my world! That’s why I cannot ignore you. Don’t you think so? [He laughs.]
If I see you, you are a mirror of my life, looking at myself. So, your life becomes the contents of my life. Okay? If you become crazy and destroy this Zen center, this is my mirror. So I say, “Please, don’t destroy this one. Please keep it here.” [Laughter.]
[…] That’s why we are connected with each other. That’s why we can share the compassion with each other.
And another example is, Buddha [says] in a sutra [that] everyone loves himself best – if so, who loves best? The Buddha says everyone loves himself best in this world – why is it we have to hurt others? (Transcriber’s Note: This might be a reference to the Rājan Sutta in the Udāna. That sutra might be the source of a modern quote attributed to the Buddha: “If you truly loved yourself, you could never hurt another.”)
It comes from the same idea. I create my own world, so all of you are completely absorbed into my world as a content or quality of my life. That’s why I appreciate your existence.
Is that alright?
1:07:35
Question: Hojo-san? Could you say why, it seems like in all the Zen teachings, in all these cases, it seems like they are really pointers…
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: … and don’t talk much about the implications of all of this. Like, why has that sort of been the traditional Zen way of passing on…
Katagiri Roshi: Passing on this one?
Same person: Passing on information, yeah.
Katagiri Roshi: [Laughs.]
Same person: Well, [passing on] what one person knows to another.
Katagiri Roshi: I wish I could. [He laughs.] [Unintelligible.] I want to keep my mouth shut, anyway. Just give it to you.
[Laughter.]
Is that alright?
Same person: Yeah… [Laughter.]
It seems like we could package this, though. [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: Package?
Same person: Yes. Sell it. [Laughter.]
Someone: I think it would kind of just crash.
Same person: Yeah! Maybe.
Katagiri Roshi: So, if you read these koans, it’s very direct words, […] a wonderful expression explaining the real point. In the beginning you don’t understand, but anyway, step by step, continually read and try to understand, [and] really you appreciate this. It’s very short words, but it’s really expressing something more than words. Behind the words you can see something pure, clean.
It’s very simple, so all you have to do is just read it, you know? That’s enough. But it’s pretty hard, because they have kind of technical words, and simple words. [Like] Bodhidharma uses – what would you say – “vastness and nothing holy”. That’s really short words that explain [very simply]: vastness and nothing holy. If I explain it, well, a little bit [we] slip off. But we already have big heads he laughs – [there is] a little bit we have to know around this. We try to guide to come close to the point.
There is a very interesting story: […] the abbot of Eiheiji went to the hot spring with his followers after giving a teisho. You know the Japanese hot springs are big, vast out there. And they were bathing together, and the followers really [expressed appreciation to] him: “Thank you very much for your teisho and lectures, they really moved me,” et cetera – something like that. And then the Zen teacher says, “All I [that I said] are lies.” [He laughs.] So immediately all the followers were very mad at him! And then they splashed the water. [Laughter.]
That’s interesting. [Unintelligible] [Laughter.]
This is very good for us. You should remember this one. Because we are talking about Buddha’s teaching in terms of, what would you say, profane being, not holy. And then, if I say something about some aspect of Buddha’s teaching in an appropriate way, and then you appreciate me, and then sometimes you really admire me [as] some kind of “god” or divinity, and then the priest becomes “holy”. You know? “I am a good boy.” That is very dangerous! It’s really dangerous. That is called over-infatuation. [He laughs.] Even a teacher is over-infatuated by admiration from the people. A teacher must be always admired by people, but the teacher must be free from admiration – any fame, et cetera. That’s why the Zen teacher says, “I tell a lie.” And [they are] immediately mad. [He laughs.] That’s pretty good.
So [he] can completely be free from divinity, or symbol of worship. He’s human. But simultaneously he is, anyway, Buddha – because without becoming Buddha he cannot teach the Buddha’s teaching, so he is Buddha. But on the other hand, he cannot stay with the Buddha – because he knows how profane he is.
So, same applies to that situation.
1:14:47
Question: I was wondering, they use the word “kill” – killing people? And then you said that that means something about waking people up so they can live fully… I don’t remember exactly what you said. Why use the word “kill” to mean that?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, “kill” means to kill… I don’t know the term. I don’t know why you “kill”. But sometimes we need a very strong [word]… because we are very ignorant. [He laughs.] We should use a very big term, a strong term, and then we wake up. If we use always very gentle, soft words, then we don’t awaken, you know?
So, that’s why Zen uses sometimes a very strong, very “hostile” word. But “to kill” simultaneously is not to kill; “to kill” is to be alive. Both. Or to “be free” means to hold. Always the two are interconnected.
Same person: Hmm. So, always the word and its opposite?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, opposite. Not only the “kill,” “destroy”. For instance, to criticize somebody is not to destroy. Usually we destroy; or hurt people’s feelings. But if you criticize somebody, I think not merely criticize. To put down people, or to degrade people’s virtue, et cetera, but simultaneously to make their life alive – enhance, support. That [means], basically, there must be compassion on the basis of educating people, using the words, et cetera.
So in Zen, if you see the term “kill”, it’s not merely “kill”, [it’s] to be alive, to make something alive. Broadly speaking, that means “to kill” is to practice egolessness. Or “to forget”: “to forget” means to be, not to destroy yourself. “To forget yourself” means to raise your life supported by the whole nature. Like a tree, standing.
It’s hard for us, because we have a big head, so we cannot imitate just like the trees. It’s hard. But we can do it.
So for this, how can we do it? Forget it. Forget yourself. That means egolessness: forget the many preconceptions, ideas, and arguments, et cetera. Sometimes they’re important, but usually we should be free from that stuff. And then, just stand up.
That’s pretty hard practice. That is the “kill”.