Depending on the Dharma
August 3, 1988 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Katagiri Roshi: I will have [a series of four talks] on lay ordination.
To receive lay ordination is to become a Buddhist practitioner. In Buddhist scripture, I think it describes becoming a Buddhist practitioner [like this]:
Enjoy the dharma. Be delighted in the dharma. Dwell peacefully in the dharma. Realize what the dharma says. Do not slander the dharma. And live one’s life on the basis of the truth described well.
I think this Buddhist scripture says that we should depend on the dharma.
[In the] Dhammapada and agamas, I think the Buddha says, “To see me is to see the dharma. To see the dharma is to see me.” And also, I think [he said that after his death] all Buddhists “should depend on the self and also the dharma.”
[In the Buddhist texts] I think depending on the dharma and depending on the self is the same thing. To depend on the self is to depend on the dharma.
That’s why here it says, “Enjoy the dharma.” “Enjoy the dharma” is beyond our like or dislike, we try to be with the dharma.
Dharma means the ultimate principle of existence. In other words, the ultimate principle of existence by which human action is supported, on which human action is based; this is called dharma. And then the dharma is described in Buddhist history, then it becomes Buddha’s teachings.
So the teaching based on the dharma, or talking about the dharma, is impermanence and interdependent co-origination, based on wisdom and compassion. This is the meaning of dharma when you describe it as “the teaching”. But simply speaking, dharma is the very basic principle by which the human action is supported or which human action is based on; this is the dharma.
So that’s why if you become a Buddhist practitioner, I think [you should] “enjoy the dharma,” [because] you try to be with the dharma beyond your like or dislike. Because dharma is the very basic nature by which human actions are supported.
That’s why day to day, we have to learn it and we have to practice it. “Practice” means to taste it; to taste with your body and mind, practically.
[And] “be delighted in the dharma.” Joyfulness [is not] joyful “thrill”, is not the usual “pleasure”; [it] is a human emotion coming from the bottom of your heart. So sometimes you don’t realize it. But if you are with the dharma day to day, being mindful of it, then naturally joyfulness is coming up. That’s why “be delighted in the Dharma.”
First of all, you have to stand up in the realm of dharma, which means the depth of human existence by which your life is supported completely. So you should take a deep breath there, and then take care of your everyday life.
“Dwell peacefully in the dharma.” Practically speaking, our existence is very peaceful. Basically, originally, intrinsically, your life is very peaceful. But we don’t want to be peaceful sometimes [even though] you are peaceful. Human consciousness is very complicated and makes your life very confused. But birds and trees, pebbles, air show a very simple life, dwelling peacefully in the dharma. This is the trees, birds, pebbles, skies, air.
“Realize what the dharma says.” I think even if you don’t understand, your basic life is supported by the dharma, [a] stream of great energy. So even though you don’t understand what it is, through actual practice, being with the dharma constantly, you are being ready to accept the joyfulness of life. And then I think you can dwell in the dharma, and then you can really realize what the dharma is talking about. So you should listen to the dharma’s message, the dharma’s representation in human life.
“Do not slander the dharma.” According to Christianity, I think dharma seems to be kind of a God. So I think God is in us.
[When] I attended a conference [recently], I [thought that] the Christians [speak using the term] God [so emotionally] because the term God has already penetrated their life. So even though they say “God” in a word, it’s really emotional or very attractive, so you can feel God supports your life, God is in you. So constantly they talk about God. But Buddhism doesn’t say “God” so much. Anyway, you shouldn’t slander your life, or others’ life, tree’s life, because your life is supported, even though you don’t understand it. So you should respect your life, others’ life, tree’s life. This is “do not slander the dharma.”
And “live one’s life on the basis of the truth described well.” Anyway, we should live our life based on the dharma, or “the truth described well.” This means this dharma is really something alive in your everyday life; that is “description of dharma.”
So that is the truth. Truth is not an abstract concept. Truth is in us, or truth is exactly identical with our life. Not [really] “in us,” not “on us,” not “with us” – truth is us. Truth is you.
So this is the point when you want to be a Buddhist practitioner. And then, let me explain dharma more in a concrete way.
11:30
I mentioned the teaching of the dharma is consisting of two points: wisdom and compassion.
Wisdom is understanding deeply how human life is going. That is a teaching called impermanence; and also our life is based on the dharma, which teaches us the ultimate principle of interdependent co-origination. Everything is connected very closely with the individual life; that is the second point. The first point is impermanence, [the second is] interdependent co-origination.
So if you describe those two points, impermanence and interdependent co-origination, plainly speaking there are two [related] points. One is the rhythm of life which [forgives] you and others; or, you and others are forgiven. This is a description of the dharma in terms of interdependent co-origination.
Because all human lives are connected. So from this point, your life [and] others’ lives forgive themselves. And also, you and others are forgiven. This is [that in interconnection] you should accept your life and you should accept others’ life.
Second, in terms of impermanence, I think your life never forgives, you will never be forgiven. In other words, your life and others’ life never forgive themselves, or your life and others’ life are never forgiven.
Let me explain it practically.
In terms of interdependent co-origination, you and others forgive or are forgiven. I think practically you should get a taste of this, day to day. In other words, your understanding must be going very deep and looking at the depth of human life. And then from the depth of human life, your understanding brings all sentient beings to compassion, and brings compassion to all sentient beings. So very naturally there is compassion [to] forgive yourself or be forgiven.
My teacher always embraced me under all circumstances, whatever happened in my life. His life never changed; always his life was going like a stream of water with me. But I was young, so I made mistake – or I didn’t make a mistake [but] many things happened, emotional situations and confusions, and even though I didn’t make a mistake everyday life was a little bit [of a] mess, because hatred comes up, you know? Many emotional things come up, so everyday life was pretty entangled or confused. But his life was never changed. He always got up in the morning, and fixed the breakfast when I didn’t get up, always going smoothly. That was very helpful for me, because it was not something [where] he should explain how tolerant, how compassionate his mind was, but his presence of heart was very important. Every day I could taste it through his life. The moment when I went back to the temple from the village or wherever, I felt relief. When I went down to the village and society, people criticized me or were “barking” at me very much. Particularly when you are very confused, some little criticism really bothers you. So that was, practically, very wonderful for me; I appreciated his way. He didn’t teach me actually, but in many ways he taught me.
Second, I think in terms of impermanence, you and others are never forgiven and [will] never be forgiven. That is very serious life.
My teacher showed me [this also]. When I didn’t get up in the morning, and then very gently he said, “When the morning comes, you should get up. When the people have breakfast, you should have breakfast. After that if you don’t feel good, go [back] to bed.” This was a very good suggestion for me. Do you understand this? No excuse; when the morning comes, get up. That’s it.
We are always arguing, but arguing means already that you have lots of space for you to do something as you like. Actually your life is forgiven, broadly speaking, but on the other hand your life [is never] forgiven, because you have to take care of your life by [yourself]. Who helps you? Actually you help yourself. Morning helps its own life. When the morning comes, morning should arrive, and then human life should fit into this rhythm of everyday life: morning, afternoon, evening. That’s what the teacher mentions in a concrete way.
So if you practice like this, very naturally dharma is coming to your life, and your life manifests yourself as dharma. So very naturally your life [manifests] as total personality. Do you know the [term] total personality? Total personality is your personality including trees’ life, others’ life, all beings. Your life is penetrating to the past, present, future, and also trees, birds… Japan, China, all of the world… pebbles, air… and then your personality becomes whole. This is total personality.
You can do [this]. My teacher did it. My teacher showed me this always. But I was young, that’s why I didn’t have enough eyes, enough ears to listen or to see it. That’s why I complained and I always was confused. But on the other hand, I felt relief when I came back to the temple, because the world is very busy, noisy, et cetera. That is [that] really, practically I can take a deep breath from his total personality. So that is wonderful.
So total personality [is there] if you practice like this. Even though you don’t understand the meaning of dharma in terms of Buddhistic understanding, anyway practice like this; then your dharma comes to you and lets the flower of life force bloom. [It] is not your business [to] try to know it. People know it; people know [the] total personality coming from your heart. It’s not something you try to produce. All you can do is to practice this day to day; then naturally, total personality is [ripened].
So I think this is wonderful practice for us, day to day. If you study Buddhism, the concept of dharma is very complicated, so we don’t understand it exactly, but I think if [I talk about dharma] it is very helpful for you because you can practice dharma day to day.
So you should accept your life [as] totally forgiven, and you should take care of your life [as] totally forgiven, and also others’ life. On the other hand, you are never forgiven. You [will] never be. That means you should take really take best care of your life day to day. This moment never comes again.
So how can I say it? Can I be forgiven, or not forgiven? No way. So you have to do it. That is [the] very serious and also very soft basis of human existence from which you can take deep breath. Like a wind blows; breathing blows naturally in the field.
And then when the dharma comes into you and becomes one, in Buddhism this is called Sambhogakaya Buddha. Sambhogakaya Buddha is [that] dharma is manifested in your life, every day.
If you describe the Dharmakaya, Nirmanakaya and Sambhogakaya, it’s kind of “Buddhology”, you know? So it makes you confused. But actually you can do it, and every day, whoever you are, you can practice it. So for this, I think if dharma comes into you and [you be] one with it, then you become Sambhogakaya Buddha. Then people really respect you.
But then at that time, Sambhogakaya Buddha… buddha is originally not only [in] Buddhism. Jainism and Brahmanism in ancient times in India, they use [the term] buddha so much. Buddha is “awakened one”. And also in ancient times, in order to be an awakened one it’s not necessary for you to depend on only Buddhism. Whatever it is; poem, philosophy… In India there are four kinds of philosophy: Rig Veda, Bhagavad Gita, et cetera. That is kind of poem and philosophy. Depending on the philosophy and the poem, myths, then you can be an awakened one; that’s what old texts say. So it’s not necessary to depend on a particular religion. That’s why Buddhism is very broad, broad.
And also when Buddhism began, naturally I think Buddhism was little different from other concepts, the concept of buddha created by other schools and philosophies, et cetera. So very naturally buddha is awakened one, but who has particular characteristic of human life. That is basically, I think you know pretty well, the eighteen specific marks of Buddha’s life. The eighteen specific Buddha’s marks are the ten powers… I don’t want to explain all the things, [but] the ten powers, and four fearlessnesses, and also threefold dwelling in thought – “in thought” means in mindfulness – and then next, compassion.
The ten powers is, simply speaking, I think, human total personality, penetrated into the past, present, future. Then he or she has great eyes, great ears to see the past, present, future; to hear the voice of the past, present, future. It is not “mystical”. If you practice it, naturally such eyes and such ears are nurtured by your practice, by your study. This power is not only penetrated into the past, present, future, but also into every inch of space. That means others’ life, tree’s life, and pebbles, space, all sentient beings. So his or her life is really expanding to everywhere. This the characteristic of Buddha’s ten powers. Well, everyone can have this.
And the four fearlessnesses: broadly speaking, I think if I lived with my master, my teacher, even though he didn’t teach me at all, I was taught about fearlessness, because I felt relief. Feeling relief completely [in] which you can open yourself is really a kind of fearlessness. So wherever you may be, if you are mindful of dharma, if you are mindful of buddha, mindfulness of buddha and dharma are the same, so if you are mindful of dharma day to day, […] very naturally you feel relief, you can see the life which is relieved, free from human suffering, human confusion, et cetera – basically, regardless of whether you realize it or not. This is practice, everyday practice. If you want to be a Buddhist practitioner, you have to do it.
And the three-fold dwelling in mindfulness: this is very interesting. When all sentient beings, when people believe or trust Buddha, Buddha never is delighted in all the people’s belief or trust. That is one point.
Because [the buddha] is always with the dharma, where trust or not trust, man and woman, teacher and disciple, all categories are loosened there, into this space, into this dharma realm. That is the basic place where Buddha’s life is always standing. So that is why threefold dwelling in mindfulness [means] Buddha never is delighted in the people’s trust.
And the second [point]: even though people don’t trust Buddha, Buddha never is suffering or confused.
And the third [point]: Buddha never is tossed away by trust or not trust of the people. In other words, the buddha’s life is never tossed away by like or dislike, or fame or not fame. Famous or not famous, happiness or not happiness; the buddha is never tossed away by those things, because always he or she focuses on the dharma realm, where all categories, all levels of beings are loosened. Races, suffering, happiness, unhappiness, always are loosened there.
That is the threefold dwelling in mindfulness.
And then the last one is compassion. Compassion is kindness, but what I am interested in is why the [term] compassion uses sadness. Compassion consists of two terms, kindness and also sadness; sadness means moaning. In Sanskrit, [it’s] karuna and maitri: maitri is friendliness or kindness, and karuna is moaning.
Moaning is pretty deep pain… not pain, irritation; very deep inconsolate irritation in the bottom of your life. For instance, we want to know what the dharma is by practicing day to day, through the studying and the practicing both. Almost you can have a glimpse of dharma, what it is like, and then, next moment, dharma has disappeared.
So if you try to know what the real dharma is, it’s very difficult to get it. But through the practice and the studying and learning Buddhist teaching, you can come very close, very close. So again and again, we have to do it. And then you come to this bottom of the human life. And then the bottom is, between the bottom of human life and eternity is produced by certain partitions and the wall, but when you touch this wall, that wall is not hard, it’s very soft, very soft. If you touch it, you can get into eternity. But you don’t notice.
So what you can notice is, you can touch it and then you experience. Next moment, experience. And then, by your experience, people are really excited. I always mention, if you see a moose in [Minnesota], you say, “Wow!” Before “Wow!” there is unity, unity of you and the moose and all sentient beings. But nobody pays attention to this unity. But paying attention a lot to the word produced by “Wow!” or after, the word after “Wow!” Do you understand? And then your life is going opposite. So this is always what we do. Okay?
So, that’s why, since I became a monk, why did Buddhist compassion have to learn “moaning”? I didn’t understand it. But still I am interested in this one. Instead of compassion or softness or kindness, I want to know what, why. There is some reason. So, practically, you have to taste all this, human deep moaning, which nobody can express it, but always in the heart. Everyone. That is kind of beyond consciousness or unconsciousness. That’s why we want to know something. We want to know something more than human life, more than intellectual understanding.
So, I think you have to know. If you know the very deep moaning of your life, I think that understanding, comprehension of the deep moaning of your life spreads into others’ life. So you can understand it; you can share your life with the people kindly. Very kindly, because you know the deep moaning of your life. Which you cannot express, but constantly this is something you want to get, everyone wants to get. So, always, day to day. This is great karuna; we say great karuna. That karuna, moaning, is very deep and great; limitless. At that time it turns into compassion. And then you can share it.
For instance, I mentioned, when you feel the big pain from an accident, you know, hitting the shin against the corner of the desk, et cetera, you cannot say “Ouch!” and you cannot feel the pain, because [it is] something more than pain. So naturally you say just [noise]. That’s it. That is moaning expressed. When the deep moaning of your life is expressed, this is a very simple word, original word, before it becomes a usual word.
[Tape change.]
… So, very naturally your life becomes the Buddha. That is Sambhogakaya Buddha; your physical life can manifest dharma in everyday life. This is called buddha, “awakened one”. And then we try to pay homage to this buddha.
So paying homage to the dharma is exactly paying homage to the buddha.
That’s why in the beginning I mentioned what a Buddhist practitioner is. A practitioner must depend on the dharma; that means depend on the self. How can you understand this self? The self is exactly the same as the dharma. And then you become buddha. And when you become an awakened one, very naturally you can really deeply pay homage to Buddha Shakyamuni, who was one of the human beings as a buddha. We can really respect Shakyamuni Buddha.
So we say, “I take refuge in the Buddha.” In Pali we say “namo”. Namo is “to bend”. “Namaste”: Indian people always say “namaste” instead of “good morning.” […] This is pretty nice, because namas is “to bend, to roll your head,” and te is “to you.” So when you meet somebody in the morning, afternoon, or evening, or in winter, whenever, I think Indian people say “Namaste.”
In Japan, I think an interesting thing is that every season changes very much, very clearly, and every season has a very delicate taste, every season has a very delicate flavor. Day-to-day winter in Japan manifests itself having a very delicate flavor. So we say “Good morning,” but we usually say “Today is a fine day.” [There are] lots of expressions of the morning; when you see somebody, you can express “Morning today,” “Summer today,” using lots of expressions. And then, they bow. Japanese are always bowing: that is “Namaste.” “Namaste” is not only exchanging greeting, but namaste is to bow, to bend, to roll your head.
And in Chinese, I think “ki-myo” is “return to life”. This life is a stream of energy, basic energy. So you should return your life; your life returns to this stream of basic energy. That is called “namo”. So “I take refuge in the Buddha.”
This is everyday practice. When you want to be a Buddhist practitioner, and then you practice the dharma, and then the dharma comes into you, then you become Buddha. You become Buddha, simultaneously you are a person, human being, belonging to sangha. This is Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. So first we have to take refuge in the Triple Treasure.
This is the conclusion of today’s talk. Maybe Saturday I can talk about repentance.
Do you have a question?
46:25
Question: Hojo-san? If you are always in touch with your mourning, are you always sad?
Katagiri Roshi: … I don’t think you can touch [it]. Well actually, strictly speaking, you are always touching this moaning. But consciousness never touches it. The moaning you can feel everyday is not real moaning. That is pain, suffering, or pensiveness produced by our consciousness or physical senses; that’s [all]. But the moaning I am talking about is a little more deep sense of pain or pensiveness.
47:24
Question: Hojo-san, are you saying “moaning” or “mourning”? I think [it’s a little unclear]…
Katagiri Roshi: “Moan”. Is that clear?
Same person: M-O-A-N?
Others: No.
Katagiri Roshi: No; M-O-U-R-N. Is that clear? [He laughs.]
Someone: We used to always say “moan” M-O-A-N.
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, is that right? How about M-O-U-R-N? It’s a different word?
Someone: Is it to mourn for someone who died; you mourn for them? “Moan” is like a cry of anguish sort of thing.
Someone: [That’s what he wants.]
Katagiri Roshi: I’m not clear. M-O-U-R-N is what?
People: Sadness. Grief. Deep sadness.
Katagiri Roshi: M-O-A-N is what?
People: Is to make a noise of pain.
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, I see. Maybe M-O-A-N, huh?
Okay, I correct it: M-O-A-N. Alright? M-O-A-N, moaning.
Someone: [Moaning] has a connotation usually of… a really forward kind of expression of pain, [like] moan and groan. What’s the word? Complaining. “Moaning” has a connotation of “complaining”. Do you mean it like that?
Someone: [Not always.]
Someone: Roshi talks about “the deep moan of the world.”
Someone: When you talk about Kanzeon, you know, hearing the cry or the moaning of the world.
Katagiri Roshi: That’s why Kanzeon is called sometimes fearlessness; a symbol of fearlessness. Because Kanzeon, Avalokiteshvara, understands the human deep cry. Very deep.
It’s not the usual sadness; it’s kind of the original flavor everyone has. Tree, birds… trees and birds express [it] very straightforwardly, but only human being are a little bit complicated. [He laughs a little.] Not straightforward like trees, birds.
For instance, a tree dies very directly and straightforwardly; nothing to say. But when a human being dies, well, [it’s] not straightforward, not [open]. We know we should [be that way], but we don’t want [it]. So this kind of moaning always happens; that’s why moaning is created, constantly.
So, that’s [that] Avalokiteshvara can have a great ear to listen to that deep crying, and then only the presence of Avalokiteshvara makes you relieved completely. Like my experience being with my teachers: I felt relief. I don’t know what it is, but when I went back to the temple, I felt relief; peaceful.
Question: Hojo-san? Did you feel relief from that deep sadness, from that moaning?
Katagiri Roshi: Uh… yes. If you pay attention constantly, someday it turns into compassion, kindness, which you can share. If you share your deep cry with the people, you cannot share the deep cry with the people: when you try to share it, naturally the deep cry turns into compassion. That is natural. That’s why you have to understand very deeply how minutely consciousness is vibrated to separate, always separate. That is what we constantly [do]; so very naturally we have a gap between.
[Recently] we went to discuss about Christianity and Buddhism [at a conference]. No matter how long we discuss, and no matter how long practically we shake hands with each other between Buddhism and Christianity, still there is a wall. And then Christian and Buddhist are always suffering: “How can I get one? How can I be united?” We should suffer. How? Day to day. So day to day, every year we have to meet, and useless discussion should be ongoing. [Quiet laughter.]
And then the discussion is a kind of a bridge, okay? You should remember [this]. Discussion, words, and the meeting is a bridge, a practical bridge.
But there are many kinds of bridge: short bridge, middle size of bridge, long bridge, very short. [He laughs.] I think Buddhist practice is that you should make the shortest bridge, and then you can share your life. While you are caught by the concept or ideas or your understanding, bridge [becomes] longer and longer. Discussion makes the bridge longer and longer and longer, constantly. [He laughs.] How do you make it shorter, simple? Meet together, talk; that’s it. And practice: meet zazen, sit there with full concentration, wholeheartedness. And then you become buddha.
When you become buddha, you are buddha, I am buddha, and then become one. That’s why Tozan Zen Master was asked by a monk, “What is real Buddha beyond the three categories of perspective on Buddha?” Dharmakaya, Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya [are the three]; what is true Buddha? Then [Tozan] said, “Now, here, am I wholehearted.”
Whole-hearted is very serious, but soft, very flexible. But [in wholeheartedness] that flexibility and very serious life come together [and are working] together. That is wholehearted. And then that is the best way to make the bridge shortest. Immediately there is communion, spiritual communion, between the Buddha and you, universe and you.
That is the Zen way.
55:38
Question: The Christians use the term “devil’s advocate”…
Katagiri Roshi: Devil?
Same person: Like the devil’s lawyer… that’s someone who asks troublesome questions… This is all very simple, but “now here I am, whole hearted”…
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. At that time…
Same person: “Here I am” is easy, but “whole hearted” – how does one be whole hearted?
Katagiri Roshi: Okay. Do gassho; then just do gassho with wholeheartedness. That is now. When? Now, here.
This wholeheartedness is a place and time where all the frames or categories and discrimination, different levels of life, are loosened into this. Simultaneously.
Same person: That’s it, huh?
Katagiri Roshi: So, devils? Devils are also there. [He laughs.] But loosened. Devils are loosened there.
But if you fight with a devil objectively, devil and you become a long, long bridge. And then finally you don’t know how to take care of it, because you cannot cross over the bridge, because it’s too long, too long to cross over. So finally you become angry.
Okay, another?
Same person: [Sighs.]
57:38
Question: I’d like to ask you, Roshi, you said “wanting to be a Buddhist practicioner” – where does that come from, wanting to be a Buddhist practicioner.
Katagiri Roshi: From where does the moaning come?
Someone: “Wanting”; wanting to be a Buddhist practicioner.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, I think not Buddhist, I think you want to be a practitioner. It’s not necessary to put the “Buddhism”; [be a] practitioner in life.
Practitioner is to know something deeply, more than the conscious or unconscious understanding of human life. Something; you don’t know what. So, why you do practice? You don’t know, actually. Okay? Is that clear?
I don’t know either, [they laugh,] why I am Buddhist monk, practicing like this. But I cannot stop it. It’s going; it’s ongoing. This is human desire; deep human desire really encourages you to exist in this world, seeking for something deep. That’s why we practice.