Blue Cliff Record Case 57: Chao Chou’s Stupid Oaf, Talk 2
May 2, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Katagiri Roshi: Would you read the Case?
Reader:
A monk asked Chao Chou, “‘The Ultimate Path has no difficulties – just avoid picking and choosing.’ What is not picking and choosing?”
Chou said, “‘In the heavens and on earth I alone am the Honored One.’”
The monk said, “This is still picking and choosing.”
Chou said, “Stupid oaf! Where is the picking and choosing?” The monk was speechless.”
– From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary.
Katagiri Roshi: The next case also […] discusses on the same topic from a different angle. This is a big topic in Zen teaching. “The Ultimate Path has no difficulties – just avoid picking and choosing.” This is a statement coming from the sutra Belief in Mind. I would like to discuss with this story with you today.
“‘The Ultimate Path has no difficulties – just avoid picking and choosing.’ What is not picking and choosing?” There are few important things you have to take into account [here].
In Buddhism, we use negative expression. Negative expression should be understood as not the usual sense of negation, but kind of a transformed state of being. Not “transformed,” no… emancipated state of being. That is negative expression.
Well, first of all, I want to ask you: what is the Ultimate Path? Simply?
Student: Everyday life?
Student: Truth?
Katagiri Roshi: Truth. Sure. Truth.
What do you think about truth? What is that?
Can you say something about it? Or you cannot say anything? What’s that?
Student: The truth is what is.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, it is. What is, just is.
In Buddhist terms, that is called suchness, and as-it-is-ness, in many ways. But what is just is. The thing as it really is.
But what is it? What is what is just is?
Student: Truth.
Katagiri Roshi: It’s truth – already we said truth.
Student: Suffering, transiency, and no-self.
Katagiri Roshi: No… I am focusing on just the truth itself. [Laughter.]
What is what is just is? So-called truth. What is it?
Student: Connected to everything else?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure, of course. It’s omnipresent. But I am talking about truth itself. What can you say about it? What is it?
Student: Existence?
Katagiri Roshi: Of course, existence. It’s not something far from us.
Student: Truth is allowing something to happen without judgment.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. What is that?
Student: Intuition.
Katagiri Roshi: Mmm no, something more than intuition. Truth is something more than intuition. Intuition is one of the human consciousnesses, which is almost the same as instinct. Different consciousness, but almost the same. So whatever you say, intuition or instinct, those are one of the human consciousnesses, but they both operate in a different way.
What did you say?
Student: To allow things to go on without judgment. I’m seeing the image like of a river flowing. Letting a river flow without putting a dam.
Katagiri Roshi: What is that?
Student: Nature?
Katagiri Roshi: Nature. Sure. Real nature; you are talking about real nature. Not nature everyone can see; real nature. What real nature is, before judgment. That’s what you want. Yes.
Student: Just what is it?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. I want to ask you, what is what is just is? Can you say something about it?
Student: Be present.
Student: We don’t know. We have to keep looking, moment by moment.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, no, not necessarily. Beyond you are looking for or not, what is just is, is just is.
Student: Right now?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure, right now. Yes it is. In a sense, yes, right now. What is right now?
Student: It’s right now without thinking about it.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure; what’s that? [Laughter.]
Student: It’s just that!
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, it’s that. Yes. Can you say [something] about it without thinking?
Student: I can’t.
Katagiri Roshi: That’s great. [Laughter.]
So, finally we come to – where? Concerning truth. What have you reached?
Students: Silence.
Katagiri Roshi: Silence! Nothing to say. Don’t you think so? You mentioned it in many ways, but it didn’t hit the mark.
So, the Ultimate Path is truth – you can say so. But “what is just is”. Yes, it is; it is still words. And also, finally, we use we use a word as simple as we can. So truth, or oneness, or what is just is… that’s it.
And then, real truth is not in the word. It’s behind the word… not behind, not within, not outside of the word. But you have to see the real things beyond the word.
But [if] without depending on the word you really want to express the truth, what is the truth? At that time, how do you express, without using a word? How do you express the truth?
We say silence. But silence is also pretty good. The other aspect of the truth, quality of the truth, function of the truth, that is silence. But without using a word, if you really want to express the truth as it is, you have to use a word as simple as you can. Just a simple word. That is called truth. Or silence. If the truth is seen in terms of its own function, it is called silence. But it’s working.
On the other hand, if you want to say something about truth itself, it is called truth; that’s all. Alright? Or, in this case, the Ultimate Path.
That’s all. Nothing to say more than this. If you say something more than this, it’s already you are involved in the words. Do you understand?
So that’s why we use this term, the Ultimate Path, or truth, without explanation. Because that’s the only unique thing. If you want to deliver the truth as it is to somebody, you have to use a word as simple as you can. That’s all. That’s why it’s difficult to understand it. But that is the most direct way to deliver or convey the truth as it is to somebody, to anything.
So that’s why here it says, “The Ultimate Path.” Alright? It’s not necessary to explain. This is to the minimum. You can use the word to the minimum, in order to express something real as what is just is. That is Ultimate Path, or truth, et cetera.
But on the other hand, it’s very difficult to use a simple word: “Here it is, it’s the truth.” It’s very difficult. So we have to use a word, what is the truth and how it operates in the human world, and et cetera. Then, if you express the truth depending on the words, how can you say the truth […] using lots of words? Using the words, depending on the words, and then you want to try to explain what the truth is. How do you express? Silence, in other words – how do you express it? Any other? Depending on words. Words are very tricky.
Student: You mean something other than words?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm, but you have to use the words. Anyway using the words, depending on the words, how do you express the truth?
In other words, affirmative way or negative way?
Student: Negative.
Katagiri Roshi: Negative. Why?
Student: Because we can’t find a word to include all the truth, but we can indicate it isn’t this, it isn’t that, it isn’t something else, and then leave it to the person to come up with it out of their own experience.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
From where do the words come?
Student: From the conceptual mind.
Katagiri Roshi: Conceptual mind. Right. Discriminating mind.
How does discriminating mind operate?
Student: By picking and choosing.
Katagiri Roshi: Picking and choosing. That is what is called…? [he laughs]
What kind of word? What is this world?
Student: Dualism.
Katagiri Roshi: Dualism, yes. Dualistic word.
And in order to communicate with each other, how can you communicate with each other in a dualistic world?
Student: With words.
Katagiri Roshi: Words! Yes. With the words, you can communicate.
So are words important or not important?
Student: Important.
Katagiri Roshi: Important, in a sense. That’s why you have to use the words. Don’t you think so?
And then if you use the words, what kind of world you can create? What?
Student: Dualistic.
Katagiri Roshi: Dualistic. It is the same as the Ultimate Path?
Student: It’s the same.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, it’s the same, but…
Student: It’s different.
Katagiri Roshi: It’s different. [Laughter.]
Student: It’s different, [yet] the same.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, simultaneously the same, but broadly speaking, the dualistic world is quite different from the Ultimate Path itself. Don’t you think so?
But if you use the words, you can create a dualistic world. So by the dualistic world, can you touch the core of the Ultimate Path?
Or in other words, is it possible for you to research, to understand the truth as it is, through the words, through the intellect, through the discriminating mind. Can you?
Student: No.
Katagiri Roshi: No? Why?
Student: You have to act.
Katagiri Roshi: How do you act?
Student: [Unintelligible] discriminate.
Katagiri Roshi: Discriminate. How do you act?
Student: Wholeheartedly. With whole heart.
Katagiri Roshi: Wholehearted? Yes, it is important for us. Already we live in the human world, so we have to work wholeheartedly.
But with words, it’s pretty difficult to approach, to touch the real bullseye of the truth itself. It’s very difficult. But nevertheless, the words are important, so if you use words, using the words, how do you express about truth? How do you express the truth in words?
Student: With straightforwardness.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. That is a kind of, when the truth operates in the human world, or in other words, how do we live in the realm of truth? At that time, truth works, truth teaches you, truth gives you instructions: what to live, how to live. That is called straightforwardness. Something like this. So with straightforwardness you should live your life, and then that straightforwardness leads you to the truth itself.
But if you want to express truth itself, using the words, what kind of words you should use?
Student: Simple.
Student: Negative.
Katagiri Roshi: Negative! Yes. Because words themselves are already you are going in a different way. But on the other hand, you cannot ignore the words, so you have to depend on the words in order to communicate with people, with nature, et cetera. And then you have to use the words in order to communicate with the truth, with the heavens, with the hell, whatever it is. Using the words, how can you do it? Very naturally, you have to use the words, but that word is very naturally [the] negative way.
That’s why in Buddhism always there is a negative expression. “No nose, no eyes, no ears, no tongue.” [He laughs.] You don’t understand this, but this is a very natural state of explanation about what the truth is.
So very naturally, that’s why in the Madhyamaka, Nagarjuna established the Buddhist philosophy on emptiness. That is pretty typical negative expression. But emptiness itself is truth. That’s why Nagarjuna explains about the truth in the Madhyamakas.
So, that’s why here [it says] the Ultimate Path has no difficulties.
So, what do we mean, “no difficulties”? Can you say something about this? “The Ultimate Path has no difficulties.” What do [we] mean, “no difficulties”?
First, let’s think, what do you mean [by] “no difficulties”?
Student: Easy.
Katagiri Roshi: Easy? [Laughter.]
You are very straightforward. [Laughter.]
It’s very easy, yes. Perfectly easy, in other words. Supremely easy. [He chuckles.] But anyway, what do you mean by “no difficulties”?
Student: Well, everybody can do it, and everybody knows, in a sense.
Katagiri Roshi: In a sense, yes. Everybody knows.
Student: No internal discussion.
Katagiri Roshi: No internal discussion.
Student: Nothing to seek or nothing to avoid.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. So, “nothing to avoid” means what? It is a difficulty? It is a difficult thing? Nothing to avoid – what do you mean by “nothing to avoid”?
Student: You are fully with whatever it is.
Katagiri Roshi: Uh-huh. But concerning, you know, difficulties.
Student: No hindrances, no obstructions.
Katagiri Roshi: No hindrances, yes.
Student: Nothing to struggle with?
Katagiri Roshi: You mean, can you say about “nothing to avoid”… is it difficult or is it easy?
Student: It is just what it is.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, but you have to approach to it. And then in your everyday life, with your effort, if you try to approach to it, is it something difficult or easy?
Student: If you aren’t in contradiction with it, and go with it wholly, you are one with it and therefore it shouldn’t be difficult.
Katagiri Roshi: In a sense, yes. That is something difficult? That’s what you mean? It’s something difficult?
Student: He said it should not be difficult if you are one with it.
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, it should not be difficult. I see.
Student: If you have a dualistic relationship with it, well then the difficulty starts, I think.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Sure.
So is the “nothing to avoid” corresponding to a certain category of difficulty or non-difficulty? Can you say? Can you put that “nothing to avoid” into the category of a difficulty or non-difficulty? Can you?
Student: You could say “not difficult.”
Katagiri Roshi: Not difficult.
Student: Beyond difficulty.
Katagiri Roshi: Beyond. Right. That’s beyond. Completely beyond the category of a difficult or easy or not difficult. Anyway, completely beyond. That is called “nothing to avoid.”
Student: Roshi, does the use of the negative, like “no difficulties,” take away dualism? Is that what that does?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, that’s why we are thinking about this, okay? “Not difficulty” is – do you think you should keep away from the difficulty, and get the “easy”? Is that what you mean?
Student: No. [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: Is it possible to keep away from difficulties in life, or can you get only the easy way in your life, keeping away from difficulty? Can you? [He laughs.] Uh-uh!
So, what is the difficulty and easiness? What are they?
Student: They’re what you to choose to make them.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, you can choose, but basically, what are they? Are they something you can make a choice or you…
Student: Dualism?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, in dualism you can make a choice. But strictly speaking, I am talking about if your life is based on beyond the category of difficulty and easiness. Okay?
Student: No attachment.
Katagiri Roshi: No attachment? So, what are they? What are the difficulties and easiness? What kind of beings?
Student: They are the same thing.
Katagiri Roshi: Same thing as what?
Student: They’re a judgment of the same thing.
Katagiri Roshi: Judgment?
Student: Mm-hmm.
Student: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: There is concept, but whatever judgment, concept, evaluations based on words, are what kind of all sentient beings? Can you say that they are particular beings which are different from you?
Can you say something about that? Difficulties or easiness – strictly speaking, what kind of beings are they? Are they different beings from all of you? Different?
Anyone?
Student: No, not different.
Katagiri Roshi: Not different? Why?
Student: Because they depend on conditions.
Student: They’re not objective or subjective.
Katagiri Roshi: The difficulties, easiness, and good and bad, right and wrong, all words – do you think they are the same or different?
Student: They are simply what is.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, they are the same. What kind of words you use, good or bad, right or wrong, or pros and cons, success or failures, all are exactly same beings as you, as all of you exist. You are also beings. Don’t you think so?
Well, those kind of beings are what? Can you make a choice? Or not? Can you destroy it, or can you throw it away, or can you grasp it, or can you keep it?
Student: No.
Katagiri Roshi: No. If it is no, what do you do?
Student: No picking and choosing.
Katagiri Roshi: No picking and choosing means what?
Student: No judgment.
Katagiri Roshi: No judgment, yes. What do you do, actually?
Student: Take care of whatever comes along.
Katagiri Roshi: Take care of? Simply?
Student: Acceptance.
Katagiri Roshi: Acceptance! Total acceptance.
So difficulties, easiness, or good or bad, right or wrong, ultimately they are just being. What is just is. Don’t you think so?
If so, “no difficulty” in this case means completely beyond the concept of difficulty and easiness. That is called no difficulty.
If you understand this, then you should read this sentence once again: “The Ultimate Path has no difficulty.”
Do you understand that? A little bit? Can you?
So what do I mean? The Ultimate Path is what? “No difficulty,” but in the different words…
Student: Beyond difficulty.
Katagiri Roshi: Beyond difficulty and easiness. Alright?
That is what? “Beyond difficulties and not difficulties” is what?
Student: Truth.
Katagiri Roshi: Truth! Ultimate Path.
If you use the words, very naturally, well, this is the best way to express, to deliver what the truth is, what the ultimate path is. That’s why negative words are used pretty often.
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And also that “the Ultimate Path has no difficulty” – next, it says just, “What is it?” What do you mean? Completely beyond the concept of difficulty or not difficulty is Ultimate Path. If so, how do you take care of the Ultimate Path?
Student: It takes care of yourself.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, but let’s look at this story.
Student: Acceptance?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, already we accept the ultimate truth, but next, what do you do?
Student: Avoid picking and choosing.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes! Avoid the picking and choosing. [Laughter.] Alright? Avoid the picking and choosing. But a question is, can you pick it or can you choose it?
Student: No.
Katagiri Roshi: No. No, you cannot, because this is Ultimate Path. Alright?
But the trouble is… [He laughs.] The trouble is, already you have chosen. Haven’t you? You already picked. You already chose. That’s why we say, “not picking and not choosing.”
If you don’t choose and if you don’t pick anything, it’s not necessary to say, “Don’t pick, don’t choose.” Do you understand?
So where is the problem? [Laughter.]
Why do we have to say “avoid picking and choosing”? Why does the story have to say that to us? What is the problem? What is the reason why we have to say so?
Student: Because we already picked.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, we already picked! So where is the problem?
Yes, all of you. All of you. I am sorry for you! [Everyone laughs.]
Student: [What about you?]
Katagiri Roshi: Including me. [Laughter.]
And also, what causes you to pick and choose? What?
Student: Ignorance.
Katagiri Roshi: Ignorance, yes.
Student: Your own nature.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, it is kind of nature, yes.
Student: Thinking that I can avoid things I don’t want to experience by choosing one over another.
Student: Discriminating mind.
Katagiri Roshi: Discriminating mind, yes.
Discriminating mind, what is it? Where is that discriminating mind?
Is that one of the six consciousnesses? Or something more than that?
You know the six consciousnesses? Eyes, nose, ears, tongue, body, and mind. That is the six consciousnesses.
And then in Buddhism we say seventh consciousness and eighth consciousness. Seventh is manas; manas means the basis of egoism. It means the sense of self; the very basic nature of the sense of self. Or self consciousness, we say.
And the eighth consciousness is called ālayavijñāna. That is constantly going and moving, just like a waterfall. But it is something more than the consciousness we can see, so it’s really basic.
The seventh consciousness, so-called manas, or the ultimate nature of the sense of self, is pretty close to us. Don’t you think so? Usually discriminating mind comes from… where?
Student: The sense of self.
Katagiri Roshi: The sense of self! Is the sense of self weak or gentle?
Students: [Together.] Strong!
Katagiri Roshi: Very strong! [Laughter.] Very strong. Wherever you may go, whatever you do, it’s always there. Don’t you think so? Can you see that? If you do zazen, you really see it. [He laughs.] Self consciousness or the sense of self is really rooted strongly in your life. Very strong.
[Tape change.]
If so… if the sense of self is always operating in your life, do you think it is possible for us to stop picking and choosing? Always there is self-consciousness working. Is it possible?
Student: No.
Katagiri Roshi: Anyone? Any other?
Student: We only get hints of the truth.
Katagiri Roshi: That means that it is possible?
Student: Not completely. Only to a certain point.
Student: But it’s possible to go beyond the nature of self.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. It’s possible to go beyond. And she said there is some possibility there. Some other people, do you think it is completely impossible?
Student: What was your question?
Katagiri Roshi: My question is, is it possible to stop picking and choosing, or to avoid picking and choosing?
Student: But you say “avoid,” not “go beyond.” Is that the same thing?
Katagiri Roshi: That’s different, but… “avoid” means keep away from, or to stop picking and choosing. If the discriminating mind is always operating – wherever you may go, self-consciousness is always working in your life – is it possible to avoid?
Student: No.
Katagiri Roshi: No. Do you think that? [Laughter.]
Student: Then what are we doing here? [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: [Right.]
Actually, in your life, you cannot say it’s impossible. Don’t you think so? Because always your sense of self is operating very strongly in your actual life. From this sense of self, what do you create? What kind of world do you create?
Student: Delusion.
Katagiri Roshi: Delusion. Suffering. Don’t you think so?
If your life is right in the middle of suffering, can you say it’s impossible? Can you continue to say it’s impossible? And then, if it is impossible to stop picking and choosing, can you always take a nap right in the middle of self-consciousness? In other words, can you take a nap always right in the middle of suffering, coming from the sense of self rooted in your life very strongly? Can you?
Student: Bump your head?
Katagiri Roshi: [Laughs.] Yes, actually, you have to bump your head. You don’t know what to do, actually. You cannot take a nap right in the middle of suffering. Even though you say it’s impossible, can you? If you say it’s impossible, you don’t want to do anything. Is that what you mean? What do you mean “it’s impossible”?
Student: I mean, you know the possible things.
Katagiri Roshi: You know the impossible means, impossibility comes from where?
Student: It’s beyond me.
Katagiri Roshi: It is completely beyond possibility or impossibility. That is the actual life you are living. Don’t you think so? The more you see clearly how strongly the sense of the self is operating in your life, the more you want to know how to go beyond, how to be free from. Do you understand?
So, no way to take a nap there!
If so, if you think so, the question comes up: “How do I do it? What do I do?” Or, that question implies some possibility there. Don’t you think so? That’s why you ask a question: “What should I do?”
The question “what should I do” is the first step to get into the possibility which seems to be impossible. But you can get into the possibility, because you can have clear eyes to see the real reality, how it’s going, completely beyond possibility or impossibility to stop picking and choosing.
Even dimly you can see it. You bump your head against the real reality, and then you can see, “What should I do?” Until you bump your head against that real reality, you can just walk, you know? And then you say, “It’s impossible.” You cannot say so. Sometimes [you say], “Oh, it’s possible.” Sometimes you say, “I don’t know.” You say so. When you bump your head against that real reality, it’s [a real] emergency case: completely beyond impossibility or possibility, you have to do something. Don’t you?
So, the question is, “What is the sense of the self?” Is the sense of the self kind of a fixed being, like an avocado seed, which never changes? Hmm? No? But you have carried the sense of the self from when?
Student: Childhood.
Katagiri Roshi: Your childhood? Since your birth? Don’t you think so?
Student: No, afterwards. [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: How about before? Before your birth?
Student: How do we know?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, even though you don’t know, if you have already the sense of the self the moment when you were born in this world, even though you don’t know, it is sure that it comes from somewhere. Don’t you think so?
Student: Or maybe it comes from… just a seed.
Katagiri Roshi: Just a seed. Yes, it is. But even a seed, if something really exists there… well, it must come from somewhere.
Student: How do you know that seed has to come from somewhere?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, even if you don’t know, it’s already there. Katagiri is there – even though I don’t know who I am, anyway I am here. So, very naturally, even though I don’t know, you say, “From where does Katagiri come?” You ask me, “Who is Katagiri?” Even though I don’t know. Everyone constantly asks me, “Why do you make a choice of Minneapolis?” I don’t know exactly. [Laughter.] I know a little bit, but that reason doesn’t hit the mark. So finally I say, “I don’t know.” But you always are asking me, “Why did you pick Minneapolis?” I don’t know. But even though I don’t know, I am here already; that’s why I come from somewhere. Don’t you think so? [Laughter.]
I should come … I should be from… [Unintelligible.]
Student: I think that’s perfectly natural. [Laughter.]
Student: What are you talking about?? [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: So, that’s why the sense of the self comes from your birth. After birth? Do you think after birth? Yes, it’s true, but is that all?
You have already the sense of the self. The moment when you were born in this world, you have it, but you don’t know. You don’t notice, but you have it already. If so, it comes from where?
Student: Picking and choosing? [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: How about in the time process – from where does it come?
Student: Beginningless past.
Katagiri Roshi: The past! Beginningless past.
Can you agree?
Student: Well, I can… [Laughter.]
When you talk about the sense of the self, are you talking about a physical self? Or a conscious sense of the self?
Katagiri Roshi: The sense of the self is very delicate, rooted very deeply in human life, because it is not only the mental function, but also it’s connected with physical function. And also it’s connected with memories, it’s connected with heredity, many things. That’s why it’s very complicated and it’s very strongly rooted.
That’s why we say ignorance, you know? Ignorance. Naturally, you don’t know from where it comes, but it comes because you have it already. As long as you have it, maybe it comes from somewhere. That’s why Buddha says it comes from beginningless past. You don’t know from where it comes. You don’t know from where it comes, that’s why we say if you use the words, it comes from beginningless past. Because your past is very broad, big.
So your sense of self is very unique, you know? When it operates [it is] very unique. [It] is different from other senses of self, because it is connected with your physical peculiarities. It’s very different.
That is the sense of the self. It’s constantly working in a different way and carrying [on] from the beginningless past. That is the sense of the self. That’s why it is very deep, very strong; it is rooted very strongly, very deeply.
But! If so, do you think it is a kind of “avocado seed”? In other words, a completely fixed being?
No.
Student: Is that ego? If you have fixed idea of it?
Katagiri Roshi: Uh, yes. The attachment… yes, ego.
So it’s not a fixed being, huh? So what is this? What is the sense of the self? What is it, if it is not a fixed being?
Student: Temporary.
Katagiri Roshi: Temporary? Yes.
Student: The sutra compares it to a lamp. It’s not the same at the beginning and the middle and the end, but on the other hand, there is something that’s there.
Student: Is it kind of an accumulation of memories and perceptions and thoughts?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
So memory, and perceptions, and [formations], and a certain situation of the human life. When can you create these memories and [perceptions] which are very peculiar to you?
Student: When you’re not totally involved in what you are doing, they come back to you. [When] you lose yourself in experience, you are not aware of those qualities.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
What I want to tell you is… The sense of the self is not a fixed being. If so, it is kind of provisional. Temporary.
Provisional being is kind of what? Can you say? Provisional being is, for example, kind of what? Temporary.
Student: Conditions.
Katagiri Roshi: Conditions.
Student: Function?
Katagiri Roshi: No, if you take an example, what kind of experience can you have as a provisional or temporary being in your life?
Student: Anger.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, many things, yes. That is a mental pattern, okay? But I am saying to tell me that provisional beings as an example you can have in your everyday life. Except not mental patterns.
Student: Eat my dinner?
Katagiri Roshi: Do you understand my question?
Student: No.
Student: You’re asking for an example?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, example.
Student: Like a traveler, a person who is a traveler? Is that provisional?
Katagiri Roshi: Traveler, yes.
Student: Carpenter? Those kinds of things?
Katagiri Roshi: Carpenter, yes. Those things. Why don’t you pick up any examples? Provisional beings.
Student: Is that an example of provisional being? When you’re at work you’re a carpenter, when you’re at home you are a husband, when you’re here you are a student?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure.
Student: Anything that is different is provisional.
Katagiri Roshi: Provisional, yes.
Student: Different from what?
Katagiri Roshi: Different provisional? Provisional beings are different? Maybe my question doesn’t hit the mark. [He laughs.]
Well, in the last page of the Diamond Sutra, what does it say about the provisional?
Student: A bubble.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. A bubble. And?
Student: A flash of lightning.
Katagiri Roshi: A flash of lightning.
Student: “A cloud, flash of lightning, a phantom, and a dream.”
Katagiri Roshi: Phantom! Great. Phantom, dream. Just a bubble.
Student: How can it be provisional all the time?
Katagiri Roshi: It’s changing constantly. Appears, next moment disappears. Temporarily it exists, but next moment disappears. Okay?
So, the sense of the self is kind of a dream, phantom, bubbles… or a kind of a habit. Alright? A kind of a habit.
If you understand this, you can see a little bit behind this dream and phantom – there is something behind the dream and phantom which make them possible to be dream and phantom, both. Do you understand? What is this?
Student: Emptiness?
Katagiri Roshi: Emptiness.
Student: Truth?
Katagiri Roshi: Truth. That is called truth. The Ultimate Path. Do you understand?
So that’s why if you [realize] this sense of the self, which is a dream, bubbles, and phantom, […] that guides you to step inside, to the truth. Do you understand? Is that clear?
So it’s possible!
And then at that time, simultaneously, you can be free from, you can see the broad scale of the world, the vast expanse of the human existence – which makes all sentient beings a dream, or phantom, and bubbles. Just like the sense of the self; just like this. And then at that time, you can really let go of yourself in the vast expanse of existence.
Just like a horse or cow: you can let go of yourself into that huge expanse of the horse pasture. And then that is the vast expanse of the horse pasture, which makes the sense of the self to create as a phantom, dream, et cetera.
This is called truth, Ultimate Path. That Ultimate Path is completely beyond difficulty and not difficulty. And that Ultimate Path, vast expanse of the existence, which makes all sentient beings exist temporarily, is completely beyond difficulty, or not difficulty. That means beyond words. Silent. Completely silent.
So that’s why next Chao Chou said, “‘In the heavens and on earth I alone am the Honored One.’” This is, you have to think [about this] in your whole life. But anyway, let me go [on].
And then monk said, “This is still picking and choosing.” So still the monk didn’t understand what the Ultimate Path is. The Ultimate Path is completely beyond words. That is silent, quietness, tranquility. But it is working constantly, [forever,] how it makes all sentient beings, the sense of the self, exist as a dream, bubbles, phantom.
And then all you have to do is, you have to exist there. You have to make every possible effort to live [in] that vast expanse of existence, the universe. Under all circumstances, you have to walk step by step in that world. That is called “In the heavens and on earth, I alone am the Honored One.”
But this is based on the double structure of spiritual life. One aspect of the double structure of the spiritual life is that through that sense of self, you realize the limit of the sense of the self. In other words, completely the bottom of the sense of the self; what the sense of the self is, constantly. It is not [like] an avocado seed. Finally you come to the certain stage so-called “the sense of the self is completely like a dream or bubbles.”
That is through individual life: through individual life you can see yourself and simultaneously you can see the limits of the self. If you see the limit of the self, the limit of the self guides you to vastness of the world. Here is the limit, the limit of your life: if you come to this limit, very naturally this door opens and you can go to the other, different world.
So through your self, you have to understand the sense of the self and you have to see the limits of the self, you have to see the limit of the emotions or whatever it is. Anyway you have to sit and see yourself. At that time, through the self you can learn who you are, and simultaneously within you there is something vast of existence there.
So the limit of existence, the limit of your life is simultaneously extending to other life. The duties and [ties] and the limit of the life is completely extending into everyone’s [life]. Because [they’re the] same thing.
So very naturally, that realization of the limit of the sense of the self is nothing; [it is] exactly the vast expanse of existence. That’s it. [It’s] universal life, et cetera. You can see [this].
So finally, your self is a small well – but it’s not a small well, it’s extending, expanding, and then it becomes oceans, this huge ocean.
So from this point, first the double structure is to realize yourself, to research yourself, and then you can realize your life includes the universe. Dōgen Zenji says the self is the universe, total universe. Because through your self you can learn who you are, but simultaneously the limit of yourself is not you; it becomes universal.
And then, if you see universal life, the more you research that limit of the self the more the limit of the self extends to everyone, and you realize you are just like a swimmer in a huge ocean.
And then if you make a mistake in your life […] simultaneously within this vast expanse of the existence everything is corrected, adjusted, naturally. So very naturally, your body [begins] to sink, if you have some problem. It’s not bad; [it’s a] good signal, helping your life. If you see something good, your body is moving very smoothly; you can realize. But if you have something wrong, your body is sinking. Whatever [it is] – sinking [or swimming], mistake or not mistake – all are going within the vastness of existence, and also all are adjusted naturally, corrected constantly, there.
And then – how are they corrected? Very silently. Very silently.
So that means, broadly speaking, you do something – [for example] you do gassho, okay? You do gassho, but if you see gassho in terms of your sense, it’s called sometimes it’s wrong, sometimes it’s bad. But this gassho is always going… the gassho as an object and the practitioner as a subject, all are going in the vastness of existence. And then, just adjusted. If you are wrong gassho, naturally adjusted. That means correct. Correct.
So all you have to do is do gassho with your best. Because that is a huge world – not your small will! By the realization of the small will, the small will becomes oceans. And then you realize where you are: you are right in the middle of the oceans. And then your life is supported by oceans, not your small will. At that time, you can do gassho with your effort, and simultaneously that effort or practice returns to silence. In other words, that gassho, or whatever – cause and effect, the effect is all going back to oceans, melted away.
So that means, do gassho with silence. All you have to do is just do gassho. That’s it. That is called shikan gassho.
Because that is great understanding, great wisdom, ok? Practicing a great wisdom, great understanding, you can really see broad oceans, big oceans. And then you practice great understanding, great knowledge, wisdom, every day, right in the middle of gassho. That’s it, [that’s] all you have to do. And then this great wisdom, great understanding, returns to that ocean, melted away. That is silence.
So that is individual practice; so-called shikan.
And socially. You do something, you help somebody. Socially, okay? The second structure [of the] double structure is, you do something, okay? That is, this action, this practice is based on great understanding, great knowledge. And also with great compassion, great practice, you always do gassho. Because each gassho, do it and return to silence; do gassho, return to silence. So on the other hand, you do this gassho, simultaneously this gassho must be something to help you, to help others. That means this gassho is not a gassho you do. This gassho is silence. That is silence. This gassho is supported, this gassho is practiced by huge expanse of oceans, which is silence. But this silence must be formed as something. We have to take that silence in the possession of a form. That is called gassho.
So the universe is silence, but silence must be taken in the possession of a form. That is individual practice. So you do something, but this do is something helpful to you, to others. Because this is very deep practice; deep gassho. It’s not your gassho, which you think.
So there is a double structure there always. You always do something, but simultaneously all things you do always come back to the silence, melted away [into] oceans. This is your practice. That is shikan.
Simultaneously, in the relation with all sentient beings, that silence must be anyway manifested as a form. Through great understanding, great knowledge, great practice, great compassion, anyway. That is called Manjushri. Manjushri is a symbol of the great wisdom, great understanding. And Samantabhadra: Samantabhadra is a symbol of the compassion and great practice. So that’s why with the Shakyamuni Buddha [image], both Manjushri and Samantabhadra are sitting on the both sides of his seat. That is great understanding and wisdom. Great compassion, and also great practice.
That is silence; so-called buddha. Buddha is silence, always, because [it is] truth itself. And then all we have to do is, both bodhisattvas, so-called Manjushri and Samantabhadra, have to do something. That is all of us. All of us are bodhisattvas.
So all of us are bodhisattvas – when? When do you become a bodhisattva? When you do something in order to express great compassion, great practice, great understanding, great knowledge – at that time, you become Manjushri bodhisattva.
This is a buddha. That’s why in Buddhist scriptures, always buddhas are there, but buddha doesn’t appear on the surface. Buddha is always quiet, and all bodhisattvas work, operate in the human world. But bodhisattvas are simultaneously buddhas. [They are] not different.
So that’s why there is a very serious fact of the double structure of the spiritual life there. First of all, one structure [of the] double structure is we have to do something, and all practice is coming back to silence. On the other hand, that silence must be manifested as a form, through the practice of Manjushri – great understanding, great knowledge, great compassion, great practice.
And then silence is manifested. We have to manifest. That means through your body – this small, tiny body – you have to express something more than your tiny body. Your tiny body is very noisy, don’t you think so? Very noisy. But you have to manifest silence – perfect silence – through this tiny, noisy body. [He laughs.] Do you understand?
That’s why you say “mindfulness,” you know? Anyway, do something – right in the middle of activity you must manifest silence. How? Right in the middle of gassho. That silence becomes sort of profundity, or subtlety, or deepness of life.
If you do practice like this, very naturally people are very impressed by your gassho, by your attitude. Wherever you may be, this is great [education for] people.
So that is called “I alone am the Honored One in heaven and on earth.”
And then, thinking that way is still picking and choosing. That’s why, “how stupid you are.” Finally, he cannot say anything. So, he cannot say anything means, speechlessness is completely that the teacher’s answer takes him to the silent world. Even though he doesn’t understand it, silence is a great answer.
So, finally, in terms of my words, I pretty often say: “Keep your mouth shut; just do it.” But this is not the usual sense of “keep your mouth shut, just do it.” It’s a very deep meaning, alright?