The Awakening of Faith – Talk 6: Truth and Mind
April 27, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Summary
In an extended dialog, Katagiri Roshi addresses the question of why we call truth “mind”. This leads to a fundamental overview of karma, zazen, and faith. (Here karma is discussed as “action”, “seeds”, “manifestation”, et cetera, and faith is discussed as “prayer” or “vow”.)
Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
0:00
Katagiri Roshi: Do you have particular questions, from what we have learned?
In the previous chapter, I think: what kind of truth? We studied this kind of truth. Do you remember?
Someone: You mean the absolute?
Katagiri Roshi: Absolute? Yes. What kind of absolute?
Someone: “The truth is one”?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, one. But the chapter we are studying today is a different truth than before. Do you remember?
Someone: The truth that can’t be put in words?
Katagiri Roshi: Right. Last time we studied the truth we cannot put the words [on].
Do you remember what I said? What kind of truth? Page 32?
Someone: Absolute truth?
Katagiri Roshi: Absolute, yes. But the truth we are studying today is also absolute, but quite different.
Someone: You mean the truth that can be put into words?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. I don’t know if it is the correct English…
Someone: Suchness?
Katagiri Roshi: I said, “the truth independent from words.” Do you remember? I don’t know if that is correct [English] or not.
Someone: The spirit behind the words?
Katagiri Roshi: Mmm-hm. So, that absolute is quite different from the absolute dependent on words. Do you understand?
Today we will study the truth depending on words. In the previous chapter, the absolute is completely absolute – keeping away from the words, and then we need to understand what is the truth. And then what is the truth, if it is completely [keeping] away from the words?
Look at page 32. What is it?
Someone: Well, I think you were talking about that that truth includes the phenomenal world and includes that engagement with that world. You talked about Nirvana being…
Katagiri Roshi: Well, look at page 32, what it says.
Someone: The essential nature of the mind?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm… The “essential nature of the mind” is…
Why do you call [it] mind? Why do you call [it] mind?
Have you ever thought about that? Why do you call truth “mind”? Or mind [can be] heart or spirit or soul – including all the words, okay? Why do you call the truth “the mind”? Have you ever thought [about it]?
Someone: Because it’s inseparable from us?
Katagiri Roshi: No… If it is separate from us, why do you call it mind?
Someone: Inseperable.
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, inseparable. Oh, of course, but still it doesn’t hit the mark.
Don’t you think it’s funny? [He chuckles] “Truth is mind.” Why?
Someone: Because there is no difference between subject and object. If object is truth, then it must also be mind. […]
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. The object and subject are different?
Someone: They’re the same.
Katagiri Roshi: The same. Mm-hmm.
Someone: The knower and the known are the same.
Katagiri Roshi: How do you say so?
Someone: How?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Someone: [Could it be] because we can’t experience anything outside of mind?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. That’s true. That’s pretty good. Yes.
But you can say, maybe… If you look at […] Minnesota, maybe you can say Minnesota is present in your thoughts. From this point, maybe, we may call Minnesota the mind. Because object and subject are not different. But the whole things, [whether] you don’t see or you can see, visibly and invisibly, the whole world is called mind. Why?
Someone: Does it have to do with us being alive or dynamic?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Someone: It has no form or shape.
Katagiri Roshi: So I am talking about the little doubt, you know… not little, quite big doubt. Why do we have to [say] the whole world is mind. Visibly, invisibly.
Someone: How about because we’re Buddha?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Yes [we are] – but it doesn’t hit the mark.
Someone: [Can you say … the interdependence] of all objects, and then subject and object being one, even if you can’t see it or even if we can see it. In one object, all the other things are there. So if we pick up one object, we pick up everything.
Katagiri Roshi: Right.
Is that alright? [Tai] says, the subject and object are not completely different, exactly they are the same. That means the visible world can be understood because […] the visible world is present in your own thoughts. Sort of in the realm of the epistemology. [He chuckles.] So, pretty understandable. So it is possible we call it mind.
But the invisible world is also called mind. This questionable, don’t you think so?
For instance, if you think United States, you have to think of United States with any other countries, the whole world, visibly [and] invisibly. And then the whole world is called mind. This is a little bit not understandable. Have you ever thought of that?
So in Buddhism, even though you don’t see [it], [even though] you have never been in heaven or hell, or even though you have never been in Europe, et cetera, [still] the whole world is present in the realm of your knowing, or of your thoughts. Okay? So you cannot ignore. That’s why the whole world is called mind.
Mind is soul, spirit, psyche, or whatever you call it. So in Buddhism we cannot say all if it was not in your thoughts. No. So if you say all, all are exactly connected with your mind, with your life. This is a most important point.
That’s why I [said] before, if nature is separated from you, you know, [if] nature is something what you never experience, you never say “nature.” Or even though you have never been in Europe, but Europe is in your thought. That’s why you can go somewhere, sometimes. You can think, you can go, you can understand. […]
So anytime, anywhere – always all sentient beings are present […] in your life, connected very closely. That’s why we say “all sentient beings are mind.” That is the all, the concept of the all.
Someone: Hojo-san? […] Would another way to say that be [that] the visible world, the world that is visible to me, is not different from my mind. And Europe right now is not visible to me; I can think about Europe, but I do not see, touch, smell Europe right now. But if I did go to Europe, then it would be part of my life.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Someone: Therefore it is now part of my mind.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. [That’s true.]
Someone: That’s not how you’re saying it though, is it?
Katagiri Roshi: Hmm?
Someone: Is that the same way that you’re saying it?
Katagiri Roshi: Uh… [Whether] you don’t see or you see, the whole world is constantly in your thoughts. That is called whole world.
Someone: It isn’t dependent on going to Europe to actually be there.
Katagiri Roshi: If you cannot go to Europe, if you cannot get a taste of Europe, at that time you say, “Europe is not in my thoughts.” Okay? But that is your experience, individual experience. But whether you experience or not, Europe is Europe; Europe is in your thoughts.
That thought is so-called – what would you say – epistemological territory. Buddhism is always [understanding] your object, not [from an] ontological point of view, [but from an] epistemological point of view. Always all sentient beings [are] connected with you – visibly, invisibly, or even though you have never experienced or you have experienced. Anyway, already there. That’s why it is a possibility for you to go, to experience. Even through the book, even through the map, or whatever. Even [if] you can think [of an] image of another planet. So [the whole thing] is anyway connected with you.
That’s why we can call [that] mind. [Unintelligible] truth.
Do you understand that one? Is that alright?
Someone: [I didn’t.] It doesn’t fit with my consciousness at all. Kind of, you know, it doesn’t seem to represent my experience. Except, it seems like…
Katagiri Roshi: It’s before you experience or not.
Same person: Yeah, but that’s why, could I say, I don’t understand it.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, it’s because it is already in the realm of your epistemological situation. In the thoughts, in the mind. We say in the mind, […] in the realm of possible knowing.
Same person: Well, I can’t separate it from my illusions in the way I think about it. It seems like it’s very similar to my illusions.
Katagiri Roshi: [It might be] illusion. Yes, it is kind of an illusion if you understand it. If something is present in your thoughts, it becomes an illusion. But without this illusion, you cannot understand the whole world. That’s why we have to explain truth independent from the words and also truth dependent upon the words.
Even the truth. Truth is completely different from your world. How can you understand it?
Someone: Are you saying that “the realm of possible knowing” is mind?
Katagiri Roshi: Realm of… ?
Same person: Possible knowing.
Katagiri Roshi: Possible knowing…
Same person: … is mind.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. In the realm of the possible knowing, the all sentient beings exists there. That’s why we call all sentient beings mind.
Alright? Do you have a question about this? Because this is very important for us. Otherwise, you don’t understand the teaching from this book; you don’t understand Buddhism. Using the term mind, it is not spiritualism. It is not psychology. [There is] a quite different meaning there.
Someone: Hojo-san? Why couldn’t it be “heart,” the word “heart”? In other words […] could you say that all sentient beings can’t exist outside the realm of heart, because of cause and effect relationship between all sentient beings?
“Mind” has to do with the realm of possible knowing, that all sentient beings exist within, as Greg was saying, […] within the realm of possible knowing. Could we also say that all sentient beings maybe can only exist within the realm of cause and effect, and we call “heart”…
Katagiri Roshi: Sure, you can say so.
Same person: … as a symbol of cause? You know, or of action.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. You mean all sentient beings are living on the basis of the cause and effect?
Same person: Yes.
Katagiri Roshi: And that’s why all sentient beings are in the heart?
Same person: Yeah.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure, you can say so…
Someone: It’s not as good as “mind,” though.
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, “mind.” That’s why I say the mind is not only the mind separate from the soul and spirit, but in this case mind means including soul, spirit, psyche, any kind of words. That’s why this book uses mind, “only mind.” But [this] “mind” is not [a different connotation] from spirit and soul and heart. Alright?
Someone: Hojo-san, the way we normally think about this […] is that the world that we don’t see right now is a world of possible knowing, because it is ontologically existent.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: It has independent existence from my mind. And it seems to me that this is the change that’s being made – you’re saying, “No, that’s not true.” Is that right? It is the world of objects, the world of things that exist in themselves, that are knowable if we come to know them. That’s not what you’re talking about.
Katagiri Roshi: No, even [if] you say so, many things are not… thinkable. And then you believe that many things which are not thinkable is not your world. But if you think “the many things which are not thinkable,” [it is] already thinkable. Don’t you think so? You’re already thinking. So how can you separate from that – from your thought, from your world? Even though you say, “I don’t understand exactly the world which I have never experienced, never visited,” still that world you have never visited is already in your thoughts.
And also maybe the different planets which you have never visited [and] no one knows. Or death, or the world after your death. No one knows. But many people write about death, you know? What do you mean by this? Even though you have never experienced death, still death is what? Death is completely independent from your words, but still we don’t know the death. But “we don’t know the death” is, death is not separate from your world. Death is exactly in your world, because you can think death is something which you have never experienced before. So you think in that way. Do you understand [that]?
So visibly or invisibly, or even though you think so or you don’t think so or you don’t care. Well, even though you say, “I don’t care.” But “I don’t care” or whatever you say: all things are already in your thought. Okay?
That’s why you can understand, someday. That’s why you can go somewhere. That’s why, maybe, some events which have occurred in the fiction written by somebody could come to be true. You know?
So, nuclear weapons. People really try to stop creating nuclear war. We don’t believe it, but it could be possible: the end of the world. I don’t want [the] end [of] the world, but it could be possible, because that is already in our thoughts, that’s why we are concerned about the end of the world. Don’t you think so? But we don’t know what’s the end of the world. That is nothing but the image of the end of the world. Alright?
So what is the end of the world? Can you believe, by the nuclear weapons it completely destroys human beings, all sentient beings? And then, can you believe? Yes, you can believe… but you cannot believe it.
What do I mean? You cannot destroy the truth, and you cannot destroy [that] energy, universal energy. As long as universal energy is universal life, well, something always happens, okay? [Is created.]
So maybe it could be possible for nuclear weapons to destroy human beings completely. Maybe so, but maybe not. Even though in your thought you can think that situation, but on the other hand, still you can think it couldn’t be possible.
So the whole world is in your thought. Don’t you think so?
Someone: What is the difference between the possible and the actual event?
Someone: Mm-hmm.
Katagiri Roshi: Actual things [are] completely, practically you [are] connected with your thoughts. With your thoughts means, that is called experience, or not experience, or neutral. This is actual stuff.
Someone: Is that the phenomenal world then?
Katagiri Roshi: Actual things is [that] you can manifest [it], in many ways. But thinking is still thinking, but it doesn’t act. It is something still, static. Static?
But if [the] actual thing is already working, it’s a kind of action. Even thinking is action. Okay?
So if something acts on your object, it is something actual.
Someone: If something acts on your object?
Katagiri Roshi: Object, yes. If you act on your object, it’s actual. For instance, if you think Europe, it’s already [actual]. Imaginary, whatever you say – imaginary. But if you don’t think it, Europe is there, and also it is in your thoughts, still related in your thoughts, but it’s very quiet.
So the whole world exists like that. That’s why Dōgen Zenji says, “When all things become buddha-dharma, then there are human beings, buddhas, enlightenment, delusions, and all sentient beings exist.” [That’s] the first sentence Dōgen Zenji says in the Genjokoan. That is completely [the] whole world is belonging to your life. And then at that time, it is called all sentient beings. That is your world.
Is that alright? Actual things?
According to the Tendai school, Tendai teaching, [there are the] ten categories of existence. Do you remember? Hell, hungry ghost, […] fighting spirit, animal spirit, human beings, bodhisattva, etc. Ten categories of existence. And then, within the hell, there are the rest of the nine categories of existence there. So, if so, in the hell there is a buddha. There is a bodhisattva, there is a pratyekabuddha, fighting spirit, human beings, and celestial beings there. And even within the buddha’s world, there are hell, hungry ghost, fighting spirit there!
Well, what’s the difference between a buddha and hell, [or] fighting spirit? When you become buddha, what’s going on? What’s going on around the hell and the hungry ghost and the fighting spirit – what’s going on around? If you become a buddha, are they completely separate from your world? Are they still in the buddha’s life? What do you think?
Someone: Yes.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. They are in the buddha’s world, buddha’s life.
But, what do I mean? Is it that they are something actual, or they are just living with the buddha quietly? What do I mean? Do you understand that one?
[Are they] actual things, or… Actual things means very active. It is active, but it doesn’t manifest on the surface of the world. […] It’s very quiet.
For instance, look at yourself. You are sitting, and as long as you are sitting, it’s buddha, anyway. But in the contents of the buddha, the contents of buddha or quality of buddha is really vast. Many beings exist in this small body and mind. If they are really active and actual things, you cannot be buddha! [He laughs.] Don’t you think so?
But when you sit down there as a buddha, it’s buddha, exactly. But [the] rest of the beings […] exist as a quality of the buddha’s life – its quality, contents.
So all sentient beings become the quality of your life, the contents of your life. That is [that] they are really wonderful beings, which exist very quietly. But it’s very helpful for you.
And then, from moment to moment, when you become buddha, it becomes buddha. And then when you become hell, it becomes hell. And then when you become a hungry ghost, you become a hungry ghost. At that time, when you become a hungry ghost, buddha’s life is very quiet, [it] exists very quietly with hungry ghost. So still it’s possible to be buddha.
So actual things are always manifest on the surface of the world.
Psychologically, we say shuji (種子, Sanskrit बीज bīja), [which] means “seed”. In the bottom of your life, in the bottom of the human world, there are many kinds of seeds, psychologically. Those seeds are just like a waterfall, constantly going. Well, we may say maybe life energy, or whatever you say, energy or whatever, it’s really going, just like a waterfall or a stream of water in the river, just going. That means […] we exist right in the middle of [those many seeds], which are just like a waterfall. That means all sentient beings, the human world, [are] completely truth. No exceptions. No exceptions.
That means if you really recognize your existence, simultaneously [where are you]? You are right in the middle of the seeds. [That] means all sentient beings. All.
Regardless of whether you are conscious of it or not, anyway, it’s going, and all sentient beings lie in this stream of the seeds. That is called all. [That’s why] we call [that] all sentient beings. That’s why [it’s] possible to understand, we [can] share our life with all sentient beings. We [can] save, help, all sentient beings; because all sentient beings exist in the same and one ground, so-called seeds.
And then many beings in these seeds appear sometimes in your world. At that time it is called experience, which becomes actual.
And then, next moment that experience leaves something, as new seeds, which is stored in this stream of the seeds. Those new seeds could manifest – will manifest – in the future. When the time is right, conditions arranged, it appears again. But, that new seed is very quiet; just stored, and it’s going – just like a drop of dew touching the ocean, and then immediately it’s melted away. But even though that drop of dew is melted away, it doesn’t mean it disappears. It’s there. Because it’s [the] ocean already.
So that is our actions, activities. The actions coming from those seeds which you have stored in the past, that is hells, and hungry ghosts, and fighting spirits – many seeds there. And then when the time is right, conditions arranged, it’s coming up. That is manifestation, we say. Manifested actions.
So those seeds cause you to manifest. And then that manifested action leaves other new seeds after doing. So it’s samsara. It’s going like this.
So actual things are really something manifested. But even if it is not manifested, still all sentient beings are in the territory of your thoughts. That’s why we call [that] mind.
So you cannot think United States without thinking of the [rest of the] world. It’s really connected. Without thinking of other people who are starving to death, you cannot save all sentient beings from the – what would you say – bomb, nuclear weapons. How can you save all sentient beings from the nuclear weapons without thinking of the people who are starving to death? You know how many people die in this world, [every day]? …
[Tape break.]
… You cannot think simply, “Let’s wipe away the nuclear weapons.” […] It’s not so simple. You have to think of many things. And also you have to think something very actual things. Many beings will die, starved to death; thousands and thousands of people die. If you close your eyes to this situation, you cannot help all sentient beings from the danger of a nuclear weapon. No.
So, everything is right in the middle of your life. So you have to think very carefully. Okay?
That’s why we say “mind.” Even the truth: truth is completely independent from your mind, from your thoughts, from your heart. Whatever you say, any words, anything doesn’t hit the mark. But, is it completely something separate from your life? Mm-mm! (No.) Even though you can think so – “truth, [the] absolute, is completely separate from your life” – still that truth is in your thought, because you are thinking in that way.
That’s why in Buddhism we say suffering is suffering, pleasure is pleasure, and pleasure is also suffering, and neutral situation is also suffering. [That] means all things, whatever kind of feeling you have experienced, are in the territory of your world. So neutral is also your experience, your world. Whatever you say – “I don’t have hope,” or, “I have hope,” or, “I don’t know what hope means” – it is also your thinking. So hope, not hope, or you don’t have any idea of hope, or neutral situation around the hope – still all things are in your thoughts. Is that clear?
That is called mind. That’s why we call [it] mind.
Any other questions about this?
Someone: Yes, I have a question. Suddenly it seems too simple, and I’m wondering if I’m oversimplifying it. But are you saying that, in my conscious mind these things exist then in a category that I say is unknown or unexperienced, and so they’re not clear to me yet, they aren’t manifest, they haven’t become actualized…
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Someone: … in form. Is that what you’re saying?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. When it is actualized as a form, it’s only one thing that appears, okay?
Same person: Mm-hmm.
Katagiri Roshi: … But it’s connected [to] many things with it. Alright? Completely. That’s why […] when the one thing is manifested, it’s very simple, but it’s not so simple, because it’s manifest and then around this one thing many things are connected.
So that’s why what you have to deal with is one thing, manifested in your life. And then you have to deal with this one. But it’s not so simple, because many things are there.
So in other words, [the] roots are really extended everywhere. It’s connected. And then one tree [grows]. Your life is one tree, you know? But the roots are really deep, connected [to all things].
So you cannot deal with the one thing which has manifested in your life […] in a simple way. That’s why we, a bodhisattva becomes very careful to deal with one thing, which you really want to experience.
Is that alright?
Same person: Yes.
Katagiri Roshi: That’s why Buddhism is very compassionate, very tolerant. You have to practice patience, and also [be] compassionate. But on the other hand you cannot stay with the sentimental way and so-called compassion, et cetera. You have to move, anyway; constantly move, and do it. Even though you don’t think it is right or you don’t think it is wrong, anyway, with your careful consideration and as best as you can, you should share your compassion with all sentient beings. For this, you cannot stay on the chair of sentimentalism. You have to do it.
It’s very difficult. If you actualize something, it’s very complicated, because many things are connected. You cannot [handle] your mind [like], “I don’t think. My life is very simple.” You cannot say so! If something is actualized, in other words if you act on, action creates some ghost you have never thought of before. Okay? [He laughs.] It becomes a ghost! That is action.
So, Buddhism is very tolerant, and [generous], and very magnanimous – but you cannot stay with sentimentalism, or individualism, [or] anything. You have to move, from moment to moment, using your senses, using your whole body and mind, and then figure out the way, what to do. And then, even though you cannot get a final solution, sometimes you have to do it.
How? Do it with a prayer. Okay? [He laughs.] That is to save all sentient beings. Because if you do it, you can save [them]. If you do zazen, how can you save all sentient beings? “But that’s what Roshi says: ‘If you do zazen, you can save all sentient beings.’” It doesn’t make sense for me at that time. It doesn’t make sense for you either.
But anyway, you cannot stay with sentimentalism, or pessimism, so-called looking at the image of the end of the world. You cannot stay there. So, if you don’t want to [invite] the end of the world, what should you do? You cannot stay with sentimentalism, or pessimistic or optimistic way. Day by day, you have to create a wonderful world. Even the one guy, [with] tiny seeds. Anyway you have to put a seed there.
So this is our zazen practice!
But how do you understand this zazen? Can you believe this zazen helps you, or helps all sentient beings, saves all sentient beings? You don’t believe [it] by your thoughts, […] no. But you cannot stay with any image. You have to do it, every day.
So, this is zazen. How do you do it? Do zazen with prayer. I cannot say [it in] other words, that’s why I use the word “prayer.” In Buddhism, we say vow. It’s a really deep vow, because this vow causes you to look at the whole world, connected with your one body and mind. Your body, your life; it’s really connected. And also, if you manifest one thing, it’s completely connected with all sentient beings, that’s why – directly or indirectly – it’s help.
But, [with] the intellectual sense we cannot reach it. That’s why we need a vow, so-called prayer. Okay? Prayer or vow. So zazen is really based on vow, okay? Otherwise, you don’t understand vow.
Well, more or less, everyone takes care of your human life on the basis of vow, but they don’t realize it. They don’t realize it.
Okay. What time is it now?
Timekeeper: It’s 5:30.
Katagiri Roshi:: I’m sorry, I couldn’t go farther [in the text].
Do you have any other questions?
Next time, we will study “the truth dependent upon the words.” So, that is from page 34, toward the bottom: Number 1, “Truly Emptiness.” [And] on page 35, Number 2, “Truly Non-Empty.” [Those] two sections explain the absolute or the truth dependent on words.
If the absolute or the truth is just truth independent from the words, no one could experience, no one [would] know; truth, absolute [would be] completely something separate from human world. But, we already exist in the absolute. If so, still, there is a possibility to experience the truth. How can you experience truth? Particularly, right now, through the words. Through the words, how can you say [something] about the truth? That is the next section.
Do you have some questions?
57:40
Question: Is your understanding of vow…
Katagiri Roshi: Hmm?
Questioner: I’m talking about vow. Is your understanding of that, kind of something that we want in our lives and so we put it in front of ourselves, or something? I mean, I don’t quite understand what you mean by it.
Katagiri Roshi: Vow?
Questioner: Yes.
Katagiri Roshi: Vow means… For instance, [the] “Nuclear Freeze Movement.” This is an important movement for you; so we try to stop it. But, if you are involved in that situation around the nuclear weapons, you can see how complicated the world is there. You cannot deal with the nuclear weapons as an idea or concept in terms of your understanding, in terms of a standard viewpoint. No. Because nuclear weapons [are] produced by our [unintelligible] companies, and [those] companies are connected with many human beings; their labors support their life. You cannot stop [them] working because they want to support their own life. Just like Honeywell – you want to sit down there, and then the screaming and stop creating nuclear weapons, [boycot] this company. But you cannot deal with the nuclear weapons like that, you know? It’s very complicated, because it’s connected [to] individual human life. It’s really matter of life and death, if they stop working there. Some can stop, but some cannot stop.
So, if you think objectively of the idea of nuclear weapons, it’s simple, but when you are involved in the reality, well, which the nuclear weapons are going, connected with all sentient beings, you realize how complicated it is. So you don’t know how to do it. But intellectually you don’t know how to do it, but you want to do it. But when [you’re starting] to do it, it’s not right; it’s wrong. It’s wrong, but you can’t stop it. So, do your best and after careful consideration, you have to manifest yourself. You have to do it!
What kind of action do you do? What kind of action there? Is that a very common action?
That action is called, in Japanese we say [shuyo], [which] means “refined” in my English term, “refined actions.” So it’s kind of, that movement must be refined actions. Just like a practice of zazen. You cannot just act simply.
So, this action, so-called movement, is always backed up by [these] refined actions. Refined sense, refined actions. That is called vow. Without vow, you cannot act, you cannot be involved in this movement.
Do you understand? That is [an] example, alright?
In other words, really hope, wonderful hope, supreme hope [is] there, always. Whatever you think – “it’s possible” or “it’s impossible.” By your thinking […] always there is a possible or impossible, neutral, many ideas comes up through your experience. But beyond this, you want to walk in the mist, where you don’t know what’s going on there. You don’t know the result, but you want to just walk there.
[…] Without vow, you cannot walk in the mist. Just walk: that is a vow. We call [it] vow or hope – maybe supreme hope, very deep hope. Even though you see the end of the world by nuclear weapons: it could be possible, but we don’t believe [it] exactly, because we want to live, we want to help the human world. We want to carry the human world continually. That’s why we do it. We shouldn’t just stop.
That is a vow.
Someone: Is that the same as faith?
Katagiri Roshi: Faith, you can say faith.
1:04:04
Someone: Hojo-san, in the form of the vow that we say, it says to “save all sentient beings.” And sometimes when you discuss, you interchange save with help. Well, for me, it’s pretty different to help someone or to save someone.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure.
Someone: So, can you…
Katagiri Roshi: Save means to cross over the river hand in hand. That is to save.
Someone: The river of… ?
Katagiri Roshi: The river of life. Life is just like the river [you and] all sentient beings cross over.
Someone: If someone is unsaved, what does that mean?
Katagiri Roshi: Unsaved means also in the territory of the save, possible save.
Someone: Don’t they cross also?
Katagiri Roshi: [Sure]! If you cross the river with [one thing], with your friends, your actions are connected with all sentient beings. It’s not abstract. Your actions must be connected; your actions must be very deep and very refined, thinking or accepting all sentient beings.
[…] For instance, doing zazen. If you don’t understand the meaning of zazen, it’s very difficult to continue to do zazen. But if you trust the teaching of the buddhas, you trust your teachers by which the buddhas’ teaching is delivered, and then you do it – this action is to do zazen by yourself. But this action shouldn’t be the simple action. This action must be very deep: connected with your life, connected with others’ life, connected with the present situation of the human world, what’s going on there. And then you can sit. Don’t you think so? Then you can sit – regardless of whether you know the save or not save all sentient beings. Because all sentient beings are already in your thoughts. And then, you cannot ignore this.
And then you sit. How do you sit? Pick up only one thing, so-called Katagiri, and pick up one action, so-called zazen. Sit down there. Just something, one thing appears, and then sit down there. And then [that] one thing, when you sit down there, all sentient beings are connected with [it]. That means all sentient beings become contents of your life, contents of this action, or quality of your action. At that time that action becomes very deep, refined: so-called vow. Without vow, you cannot act in that way.
If you really act simply – that is, “the purpose of doing zazen is to deepen my life, that’s it” – well if you think so, you cannot continue to do zazen. [He laughs.] Because it’s too realistic; too individual. Individual, but individual because something appears on the surface of water; that is only one thing you can connect [to], not other things. It’s very clear. But simultaneously it’s not so simple, because in the roots, under the water or under the ground, there are many beings connected.
So dealing with the one thing, nevertheless you have to deal with all sentient beings through this one. For this, your action must be refined. That is called vow.
And then, that is really to save. Save, and you really walk hand in hand with all sentient beings, we can say.