Blue Cliff Record Case 57: Chao Chou’s Stupid Oaf, Talk 1
April 25, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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0:00
Katagiri Roshi: Case 57. Page 378.
Reader:
Before you have penetrated, it all seems like a silver mountain, like an iron wall. When you have been able to penetrate, from the beginning it was your self that was the silver mountain, the iron wall.
If someone asks me, “So what?” I would just say to him, “Here, if you can reveal an action and observe an environment, occupy the essential bridge without letting profane or holy pass, this would not be beyond your inherent capacity.”
If, on the other hand, you are not yet thus, observe the look of an Ancient.
– From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary.
Katagiri Roshi: Okay. The case, please.
Reader:
A monk asked Chao Chou, “‘The Ultimate Path has no difficulties—just avoid picking and choosing.’ What is not picking and choosing?”
Chou said, “‘In the heavens and on earth I alone am the Honored One.’”
The monk said, “This is still picking and choosing.”
Chou said, “Stupid oaf! Where is the picking and choosing?” The monk was speechless.”
– From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary.
Katagiri Roshi: The title is, “Chao Cho’s Stupid Oaf.”
The pointer: “Before you have penetrated, it all seems like a silver mountain, like an iron wall. When you have been able to penetrate, from the beginning it was your self that was the silver mountain, the iron wall.”
Let’s [look at] the simple meaning of the sentence. Can you say something about this first line I have read: “Before you have penetrated, it all seems like a silver mountain, like an iron wall.” What is a silver mountain, in this case?
Student: A mountain that is made out of silver?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. That’s fine. [Laughter.]
But that silver mountain is an example. But silver mountain or iron wall is an implication of the truth. Okay? If so, can you say [something about it]? The first sentence: “Before you have penetrated, it all seems like a silver mountain, like an iron wall.” What does it mean?
Student: Now that you said that they’re symbols of the truth, I’m kind of confused. I was thinking that it meant [the] dualistic world, you’ve set up self and object; it seems like an iron wall.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Before you have experienced the truth, truth can be seen objectively. So no matter how long you try to reach it, it’s pretty hard to understand it. It’s pretty hard to reach. So that’s why truth you are seeking objectively is like a silver mountain. The more you try to climb, the more you can’t. It’s a huge, high silver mountain. And also, an iron wall is very hard. You cannot understand it.
Do you understand? It’s alright.
Trying to understand the truth objectively means intellectually. Intellectually, you try to approach, you try to have access to the truth intellectually.
So the next sentence: “When you have been able to penetrate, from the beginning it was your self that was the silver mountain, the iron wall.” What is this? “When you have been able to penetrate” – what does it mean?
Student: Once you understand.
Katagiri Roshi: Undertand. Experience. If you really experience the truth, from the beginning. From the beginning. Okay? Before you understand, before you experience or not, from the beginning it was yourself that was the silver mountain and the iron wall. What does it mean?
Student: Could it mean ego? Penetrating ego? It’s not? Hmm.
Student: That it’s really always accessible?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, pretty close, pretty close.
Student: The truth is within you. And the obstacle is within you?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, “in” you… right, pretty close.
Student: They’re all the same.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, the same. Exactly. Not “in” you, okay? You know, if you use the words “the truth is in you,” or “the truth is exactly you” – it’s quite different, don’t you think so?
Even though you say “the truth is in you,” or “you are in truth,” it’s still dualistic. “In you” is extra, anyway. [He laughs.] So “no gap between.” That is exactly the same.
So that’s why it says, “from the beginning.” “From the beginning” is before you experience the truth or not, from the beginning your body and mind are truth itself. Silver mountain. Iron wall.
That’s why the more you try to climb the mountain – [your life,] your body and your mind – it’s pretty hard! It’s deep. Don’t you think so? In your whole life, you have to study, you have to learn – what the human body is, what the human mind is.
And then running your body and your mind, is simultaneously is to run the human world. That is because your body is really interconnected with the human world. So to understand you is to understand human world. That’s why it’s huge. That is a silver mountain.
So that’s why […] Dōgen Zenji says “to study Buddhism is to learn the self.” To learn the Buddha-dharma is to learn the self. So let’s study, let’s learn who you are. Because you are a silver mountain: very stable human life – interconnected, interpenetrated with a huge universe. So you cannot break down, you cannot destroy your body and mind, by your understanding, by your own standard, or by your prejudice. You cannot destroy your body and mind. It’s [really an] iron wall.
9:30
And then, would you read the next paragraph.
Reader:
If someone asks me, “So what?” I would just say to him, “Here, if you can reveal an action and observe an environment, occupy the essential bridge without letting profane or holy pass, this would not be beyond your inherent capacity.”
Katagiri Roshi:
In other words, the truth is exactly your body and mind – and then someone says, “So what?” [He laughs.] Okay? “So what?” How do you answer this?
Then, “I would just say to him, ‘Here, if you can reveal an action and observe an environment…’” It means you can reveal an action and observe an environment. Do you understand this one?
Student: If you can understand the functioning of a thing, how something works through and through?
Katagiri Roshi: To reveal action, observe environment.
Student: To understand how something works is through and through.
Katagiri Roshi: Through and through. Yeah, pretty close. Pretty close.
Not understand.
Student: Manifest?
Katagiri Roshi: Manifest. Sure, manifest. Reveal.
So what do you reveal?
Student: The self. Truth.
Katagiri Roshi: Truth, right. Where? How?
Student: Here, now.
Student: In action.
Katagiri Roshi: In action! That’s right.
That’s why “if you can reveal an action” means you have to you have to reveal the truth in action you are confronted with.
“And observe environment” – what does this mean? Observe what? What do you observe? What should you observe?
Student: Observing the actions of everything else that’s interpenetrating.
Katagiri Roshi: Pretty close.
Student: The interconnectedness of everything.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Can you say it more simply? You understand, you can reveal the truth in action … and next, you observe…
Student: Of the universe?
Katagiri Roshi: The universe? Yes. Observe…
Student: Yourself?
Student: The law of cause and effect?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, that’s pretty “logical.” Even more simple. The universe, or truth. Okay?
That’s why here it says, if you can if you can reveal the truth in action, observe the truth in every environment you meet.
So wherever you may be, you have to manifest, you have to reveal the truth. Truth means something more than you. Okay? Something more than the you [which] you have understood. Something more than that.
So through that human body, actually who acts? Who observes?
Student: Nobody at home.
Katagiri Roshi: [Laughs.]
I am asking a simple question, okay? Nothing complicated. Sure – you. You. [Laughter.]
So you act. who are you?
[Unintelligible.]
Student: The silver mountain.
Students: Truth.
Katagiri Roshi: But action. The person who is acting is who? What kind of person? In the dualistic world?
Student: The actor.
Katagiri Roshi: Hmm?
Student: The act-or is the person who is acting?
Katagiri Roshi: Door? [Laughter.] Oh, actor. Yes. Actor, actress. [Laughter.] It means small guys, these funny guys. Funny little guys over there.
So you act means pretty common, usual human being acts, observes. Don’t forget this! [He laughs.] Even if you try to forget, you cannot escape.
15:50
Okay. So through this small scale of the human body, human mind, you have to reveal – what?
Student: The truth?
Katagiri Roshi: The truth! You have to observe…
Student: The truth.
Katagiri Roshi: Truth! Right.
Is that possible?
Student: If you say so. [Audience laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: But then, if I don’t?
Student: It’s harder. [Laughter.]
Student: Is it possible not to do it that way?
Katagiri Roshi: No way to escape.
Whatever you say – “it’s harder” or “it’s easier” – we have to do it. Whether it is possible, or it is impossible, whatever you say, we have to do it.
Because you are there. Your body and minds are already truth. The universe.
So then people ask, “So what?” And then I say, “If you can reveal an action and observe an environment, occupy the essential bridge without letting profane or holy pass…”
In Case 52, page 355, the second line from the top:
He cuts off the essential crossing place and doesn’t let profane or holy pass.
Exactly the same sentence here. But here, he translats it [as] “occupy the essential bridge without letting profane or holy pass.”
“Essential bridge” means a ferry: a ferry to carry the people from this shore of life and death [to] nirvana. From delusion to nirvana [or] enlightenment; or from evil to good, something like this. A ferry.
So ferry is the inevitable, important place where everyone should pass through. But here it says “cut off”: cut off that bridge, that ferry. That means the most important place – cut off. Cut off that most important ferry, and you don’t let the profane and enlightenment [or] holy pass.
What does it mean?
Student: The end of dualism.
Katagiri Roshi: “The end of dualism.” Yes… Any other?
Student: Avoid picking and choosing.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. We don’t yet… [Laughter.] [But] in a sense, it’s true.
Student: Returning to quiet?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Anything else?
Student: Not discriminating.
Katagiri Roshi: Do you think dualistic world is very rational? … It’s pretty rational.
So, “cut off the ferry,” and “without letting the profane and the holy pass” means to cut off – what? A sense of duality, or a sense of rationality.
According to a sense of rationality, it’s impossible to cross over the river from here to the other shore. It’s impossible. Alright? But it’s possible. How? What you should do in order to make it possible?
“Cut off a sense of rationality” – what does it mean?
Student: You drop off body and mind?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure! That’s true. But it’s not idealistical, you know? You have to do something in a concrete way.
Student: Open your eyes to see what’s going on?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. What does he say in this paragraph?
Student: Do you have to act without discriminating between the holy and profane, meaning you have to just take care of things, whether they’re little or small.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, but if you use this sentence in the second paragraph.
Student: Reveal an action and observe an environment?
Katagiri Roshi: Right! You have to reveal the truth in every action you do. Alright?
And then, it’s possible. It’s possible. Impossibility becomes possible.
And you have to observe the truth in every circumstance you are meeting.
That is what? That is practice. Alright? This is a practice.
23:38
“… this would not be beyond your inherent capacity.”
What does it mean?
Student: We are Buddha nature, and therefore we can go, not profane it.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Beyond your inherent capacity.
Student: It’s within you to do this particular thing.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. “Beyond your inherent capacity” – what do we mean?
Student: Beyond our understanding.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. So what is beyond your inherent capacity?
Students: It says “not beyond.”
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, “not beyond.” I’m sorry, “not beyond.”
What is it that you can “not beyond”? [Laughter.]
What can you do? What should you do? When you do… what do you do? Excuse me. What do you do?
Student: When you do what you do, what do you do? [Everyone laughs.]
Katagiri Roshi: [Laughing.] What do you do, when you are not beyond – okay? – inherent capacity.
Student: You’re centered; you’re here.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Sure.
And what does it say here?
Student: Every action shows the truth.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. That’s true.
So, “it is not beyond inherent capacity” means it’s not so strange. It’s very common. It’s not mysterious.
Do you understand? It’s not mysterious. It’s not open to particular person. It’s open universally. Everyone can do it.
But most of people cannot do it because everyone tries to approach to [it] through the intellectual sense. That is really the cause of creating egoistic understanding. So you cannot do it. Someday, somewhere, we have to jump [in]. That is practice.
“Jump [in]” doesn’t mean to to blind yourself. Still your intellectual sense is clear. But when when the time is right, conditions are arranged, you have to practice it. You just jump in.
For instance, if you want to swim: no matter how long you study swimming through a book or thinking of swimming, it’s not real swimming. Do you understand that?
But in spiritual life, people are always thinking. [He laughs.] And [they are on] a spiritual “trip.” That means sometimes a spiritual trip which makes you completely “spaced out.” Sometimes a philosophical head trip. Sometimes a psychological head trip.
Lots of people do that. And that’s fine. But you should know when you have to do it. [You should know] when you should stop this and then when you have to jump in. When you are ready, you have to jump in. [Or] even though you don’t feel you are ready to jump in, sometimes you should jump in.
So from this point, what does it say in this pointer? Can you say simply the main point of this pointer mentions?
Student: You are the truth and you manifest yourself in your action.
Katagiri Roshi: Because? Why?
Student: Because you do it. That’s the inherent nature.
Student: Because it is there.
Katagiri Roshi: Because it is there, where?
Student: Everywhere.
Katagiri Roshi: Everywhere. Oh. If you want to do, the truth is where?
Student: Inside yourself and outside yourself.
Katagiri Roshi: Not outside and inside, anyway. Your whole body and mind is truth.
Not inside, not outside, not middle. Okay? The whole body.
Because our bodies, our minds are exactly totally the truth. Exactly. No gap between. Not “in” you, not in the truth. Alright? That is identity; exactly identity. Total identity with the truth. That is your body and your mind.
That’s why you cannot destroy. Even though you despair, you experience despair, but still you cannot destroy. Because your body is iron wall. Life is deep, like the ocean. Life is high as the mountains. That’s why “silver mountain.”
That is the meaning of the pointer.
30:35
Katagiri Roshi: The case. Would you read the case once again, please.
Reader:
A monk asked Chao Chou, “‘The Ultimate Path has no difficulties—just avoid picking and choosing.’ What is not picking and choosing?”
Chou said, “‘In the heavens and on earth I alone am the Honored One.’”
– From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary.
Katagiri Roshi: Okay. Do you have a doubt if you read this one? Do you have a certain doubt?
Student: Mm-hmm.
Katagiri Roshi: Is it very rational, understandable? Or is it very irrational? Do you have some doubt?
Student: I have doubt. [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: What kind of doubt do you have?
Student: I get real stuck with – even though you talked about this during the sesshin, maybe, I don’t remember – the “I alone.” I’m still stuck on “I alone.” [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Oh. Okay. That’s is your doubt. That’s a big doubt. That’s pretty good. Any other doubt?
Student: Well, does he mean that he’s the Buddha? “I alone am the honored one?”
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. And also the first sentence: “The Ultimate Path has no difficulties – just avoid picking and choosing.” I have several copies, and will give [them to] you.
In the beginning of that, would you read the first four lines?
Reader:
The great way is not difficult for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, okay. That’s enough. That’s is the point [of] this sentence. “The Ultimate Path has no difficult difficulties, just avoid picking and choosing” – it comes from this sutra.
So that sutra says, “The great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised.”
What do you think about this? Do you have a question or doubt about this?
Student: Well rationally, it seems that… I sympathize with the monk’s question, because it does seem that … having no preference seems to be a choice.
Katagiri Roshi: Why did this monk make a question like this, when he read that this in this sutra? Why?
Student: How can I not pick and choose? That’s the doubt I have when I see it: how can I do that?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. What do you mean, picking and choosing? In this sutra?
Student: Discriminating.
Katagiri Roshi: Discriminating.
Student: Having preferences.
Student: Attachment.
Katagiri Roshi: Many preferences; intellectual preferences, and also emotional preferences, affective preferences. And then what does this sutra say?
[Laughter.]
Student: Well, according to this sutra: when love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised. Make the smallest distinction, however, and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
Katagiri Roshi: Okay, that’s enough. [Laughter.]
When love and hate are both absent, and then everything becomes clear. Can you accept this?
Student: Most people are afraid to accept that. It’s not doubt people have, it’s fear, I think.
Katagiri Roshi: Any other?
Student: I don’t understand, in a situation like that. Well, when you sleep or are unconsciousness. I think it’s a situation called mindfulness, or something.
Student: Can you say that louder please?
Student: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Do you think it is possible to do? Do you?
Student: That’s the doubt. [Laughter.]
Student: By saying that, aren’t we choosing not to choose?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, picking and choosing is alright, but by picking and choosing and then what happens? After picking and choosing, then what will happen?
Student: Attachment.
Katagiri Roshi: Attachment. Why do you attach?
Student: Because you have preferences.
Katagiri Roshi: You have preferences, but why do you attach to your preferences? What kind of preferences?
Student: You identify with them. I mean, you take them for yourself.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. Uh-huh.
Student: Human nature.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Well, in a more concrete way, you can experience in everyday life. For instance, if the people who don’t know about Buddhism and look at me, and then immediately he or she was very surprised at me, and then picking and choosing. And next… something happens.
And that is preferences. After judging or evaluating, and then affective preferences appear. Alright?
That is called what? What is affective preferences?
Students: Love and hate.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, love and hate. Very naturally.
And love and hate make your life what? Simple?
[Laughter.]
Complicated, huh?
But on the other hand: do you think it’s really possible to go beyond this, to make your love and hate absent?
Students: No…
Katagiri Roshi: Do you think so? No? Everyone?
No one’s saying yes?
Student: It seems like it’s alright to experience both love and hate, but just not to become attached to either one.
Katagiri Roshi: Okay. Can you do that?
Student: Sometimes you’re attached to love, sometimes to hate, and all the places in between.
Katagiri Roshi: Between is a pretty shaky situation. Between is not the situation that love and hate are absent. Do you understand? Just like a hamburger. [Laughter.]
Exactly you can go between…
Student: They’re balanced?
Katagiri Roshi: No, not balanced. It’s very shaky. [Laughter.]
“Hamburger” means between the bread. The bread is separated completely: This this is a past, this the future. The hamburger is your present. [Laughter.] But you can go any place, past, present, and future. Because without past and the future, without two pieces of bread, you cannot eat the hamburger.
(Tape change.)
… a very shaky situation. It’s between.
So between is not absent. Between is not free from hatred and love. Between is also part of the hatred and love.
So in Buddhism, we say suffering is suffering, and pleasure is also suffering, and also neutral is suffering. [He chuckles.] Neutral means between.
Student: What’s beyond?
Katagiri Roshi: That’s the question. That’s what I want to know. [Laughter.]
So first of all, in terms of the dualistic sense, it’s really impossible to escape from love and hate. Because if you ignore this, if you deny this, you cannot be human.
But that’s why most people misunderstand Buddhism. If they read Buddhism, they understand on just on the surface. Just like this. “If hate love and hate are both absent, then everything becomes clear.” That means complete negation of the love and hate. But actually, it’s impossible. Why does Buddhism have to say so? Because it’s impossible; that’s why we have to pay attention to it again.
It’s pretty easy to deal with love and hate. It’s not necessary to emphasize, please pay attention once again to love and hate.
So love and hate are the inevitable situation for everyone, but that’s why we have to take care of it. Because they makes your life very complicated.
So from this point, that’s why this monk asks a question like this.
The picking and choosing – what is that?
Student: Consciousness.
Katagiri Roshi: Consciousness. What kind of functioning of the consciousness?
Student: Dualistic.
Katagiri Roshi: Dualistic. Dichotomy.
Student: Discrimination.
Katagiri Roshi: Discriminations. Yes.
So, discrimination. In your everyday life – if you see somebody or something – first of all, what function of consciousness comes up?
Student: Evaluation? Judgment?
Katagiri Roshi: Right. That is very common. For instance, if you come in to this room. First, what kind of consciousness operation?
Student: Perception.
Katagiri Roshi: No, consciousness. What kind of consciousness?
Student: Subjective?
Katagiri Roshi: No.
Student: Sense?
Katagiri Roshi: Before sense.
What is that? When you come in – immediately, what operates?
You can use it very often.
Student: How about impression? An impression comes up.
Student: Visual?
Katagiri Roshi: No. Function of a kind of consciousness.
Student: I have an opinion right away about it.
Student: Observation?
Student: Objective?
Student: Can we all go out and try it? [Everyone laughs.]
Katagiri Roshi: For instance, if somebody comes in, and they immediately feel very quiet. What makes you feel quiet? What kind of consciousness makes you quiet?
Student: The discrimination that this is a different kind of…
Katagiri Roshi: Before discrimination.
Student: Before discrimination, there wouldn’t be any love or hate?
Katagiri Roshi: But I am talking about consciousness. Okay? Before discrimination operates, what kind of a consciousness works? What makes you tranquil or calm?
Student: Openness.
Katagiri Roshi: Openness, yes. But the consciousness. What’s that?
For example, pretty close to this one: instinct. Any other?
Students: Intuition.
Katagiri Roshi: Intuition. When you come in, intuition operates immediately.
Or if you see somebody, immediately it works, your consciousness operates. That is intuition.
And then next?
Student: Judgement.
Katagiri Roshi: Judgement usually, yes.
And then if you judge and evaluate, then what happens?
Student: You have an opinion.
Student: Or you decide then if you like or dislike.
Katagiri Roshi: Right. That’s discriminating, or judging and evaluating, and next affective preferences comes up. That is like or dislike, love and hate. And then, they make your life very complicated, just like a snowball rolling from the top to the bottom of the hill.
That is called samsara. Samsaric life.
Student: Is affective preferences like an active thing? Is that an expression of discrimination?
Katagiri Roshi: Pretty active. Affective preferences is very concrete aspect of human emotion, after judgment, evaluation, and thinking, and discriminations.
But Buddhist practice is something you have to do before you evaluate, you discriminate. What is that?
Intuition works, and then?
Student: Truth in action, action in truth.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. We have to reveal the truth in your actions, yes.
What Buddha says. What you have to do – before you judge, evaluate. But your consciousness immediately operates in the common sense, the usual sense. But even though you do like that every day, you have to do something important. What does the Buddha say?
Student: Be aware.
Student: Be mindful.
Katagiri Roshi: Mindful too. What do you have to be mindful [of]?
Student: That what you’re observing or what’s in front you is not separate from you?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah. When the Buddha was attaining enlightenment, what he attained enlightenment?
Student: “I alone.”
Katagiri Roshi: No.
Student: All sentient beings.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. All sentient beings what?
Student: He attained enlightenment with all sentient beings.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. All sentient beings are what?
Student: Are Buddha.
Katagiri Roshi: Buddha. Yes.
That is [what] you have to practice, before you judge. That’s pretty hard.
Students: Oh.
Katagiri Roshi: Do you understand this one? Most people complete forget this.
Student: You said intuition was the first act of consciousness? […] What are the characteristics of intuition? What does that include?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, as a whole, you can catch it.
Student: See the whole picture?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, the whole picture. Before your six consciousnesses start to operate. Your intuition completely – what would you say – captures a certain situation as a whole.
And then your six senses start to work. Then at that time, the six senses separate; dichotomize. And then pick up one. So-called “gong.” So-called “Greg.” And then, I judge, evaluate. Like this.
If my consciousness picks up this only one person, my consciousness completely doesn’t pay attention to others. So only this guy. That is picking and choosing.
Very picky. Very… precise. [He laughs.] Very clear: one. But intuition is completely working as a whole.
Student: If you haven’t experienced all sentient beings as Buddha, isn’t that a form of discrimination, though? I mean if you haven’t actually experienced that.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, you have discrimination already.
Student: So in order for me to try to experience and then treat my experience as the Buddha, for me that that would be discrimination, wouldn’t it?
Katagiri Roshi: (Whispering) I have to tell you…
Stupid oaf!
[Much laughter.]
So smart! [He laughs.] Human beings are really smart, aren’t they? Always picking and choosing.
Yes, our consciousness is always working like that. Okay? From moment to moment.
But before we judge, evaluate, still we have to do something. That is called we are Buddha.
We are Buddha means what? What kind of practice we should do?
Student: Egoless.
Katagiri Roshi: Egoless. Practically, what you should do?
Student: Act like a Buddha.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. But your consciousness always working. Your consciousness is barking at you. [He laughs.] But you you have to practice something, so-called all sentient beings are Buddha. So in order to maintain that practice, what should you do?
Student: Just do it. Just jump into it. Right?
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, blindly? You cannot just do it.
Student: Wholeheartedly.
Student: Does it have something to do with the essential bridge?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, I’m not not talking about that one. I’m talking now about what kind of practice you should do in order to maintain the truth we are Buddha.
Student: Zazen, by any chance?
Katagiri Roshi: Zazen is good. But in your everyday life, what should you do?
Student: Be very compassionate.
Katagiri Roshi: Very compassionate. Yes. More?
Student: Be mindful.
Katagiri Roshi: Mindful. Yes. What kind of mindfulness?
Student: Reveal the truth in your actions.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. But in a concrete way.
Student: Don’t discriminate.
Katagiri Roshi: Well… something more than that.
Student: You should see everything as Buddha.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. But in a concrete way, you have to maintain that teaching, truth.
Student: Do everything with [unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: But your consciousness is always barking at you. How can you maintain?
Student: Be very centered.
Katagiri Roshi: Very noisy. Around your life, very noisy.
Do you understand your situation? You are already going in a certain pattern, lifestyle. So you cannot stop it. But you have to do it, something important. That is so-called the truth, that all sentient beings are Buddha. But your circumstances, your self, are very noisy, barking at you. What you should do?
Student: Acceptance?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure, accept, but you it’s very difficult to accept in a noisy situation.
Student: Gassho.
Katagiri Roshi: Gassho, yes.
Opposite to noise – well, what?
Students: Quiet.
Katagiri Roshi: Quiet!
[Laughter.]
What would you call it? Quietness?
Student: Being centered.
Katagiri Roshi: Being centered, sure.
Student: Peaceful.
Katagiri Roshi: In technical terms, what is that? A technical term in Buddhism?
Student: Samadhi.
Katagiri Roshi: Samadhi!
[Laughter.]
Okay?
Student: That doesn’t sound to “practical” to me!
[Lots of laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, come on. It’s very…
Student: … I mean, how do you get there?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, for instance… [Laughter.]
It’s very concrete, don’t you think so? No? Quietness is very concrete.
Student: But with all the noise and stuff?
Katagiri Roshi: Noisy! Right in the middle of noisiness, and then you must be quiet.
Student: And the way to do that is just to do it.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. That quietness is very important for you.
If you become quiet, can you rush into a certain destination by your judgment? Can you? Can you grasp somebody by your judgment quickly? Can you, if you become a quiet?
No way. You can’t.
But if you don’t: immediately you are carried away by judgment, evaluation. [This is the] very common, usual lifestyle. You are just washed away, just like a flood.
But you have to maintain; for this you must be quiet. That means you cannot rush into it. Take time. You have to take time.
That is what? What you should do every day?
Zazen.
And when the zazen extends into your everyday life, what is that?
Student: Mindfulness.
Katagiri Roshi: Mindfulness. Quietness. Tranquility. Samadhi. You can say so.
Alright?
Student: You just make it sound so easy when you say it. [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: Well, it’s easy in a sense, because it’s a simple practice.
For instance, in the morning, very busy, okay? But, anyway, sit down and have a breakfast. Even for one minute, sit down and be quiet, and then gassho and chant the verse. Pretty good. Don’t you think so?
This practice is very important for us. If you do that, very naturally you don’t judge the food, your object, in the common sense, so called flavor or not flavor. So you are already facing the meal in a completely different way, dealing with the food as a Buddha.
That is called gassho, and chant.
That is what? How can you do this?
Be quiet. Sit down there. Samadhi.
1:00:27
Student: Hojo-san, within this quietness or samadhi, is there love and hate there?
Katagiri Roshi: [Chuckles.]
Student: Better call him “stupid oaf.”
[Much laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: That’s why we have to make this kind of book. [Laughter.]
It’s pretty hard to study this kind of book, isn’t it? But you made it. A human being made it like this. If you think simply, no problem; it’s not necessary to make a [discussion].
If you become calm: yes, there is still love and hate. But that is just flashing lights. Just blinking.
Just like dancing. Right in the middle of dance – you think, don’t you? You think: “Oh, pretty good dance.” [Laughter.] Your body and mind is right in the middle of performance of the dance, but your head is still blinking. Do you understand? That is love, hate… fighting… many emotions come up.
So [it’s] still there. But practically, from the beginning to end, be quiet. Practice samadhi. Right in the middle of breakfast, right in the middle of noisiness, anyway. That is so called, “practice the truth we are Buddha.”
But we don’t do it, usually.
Is that alright?
[Someone clears their throat.]
[Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: Yes?
Student: [Is it] that when we confront breakfast or whatever, it’s not just that we are Buddha, but the situation is Buddha. Isn’t that so?
Katagiri Roshi: The whole world.
Student: So what what we’re facing is Buddha too. Like it or not.
Katagiri Roshi: It’s not “facing.”
Student: Well, what’s there?
Katagiri Roshi: We [don’t stand]. We are Buddha.
We are Buddha means you have to deal with you and your object as a Buddha. Something more than judgment. Not by your judgment.
Anyway, deal [with]. Because mind is always sticky, catching. But you can’t deal with your life by your mind because mind is already touch it.
So body is still free. And then by your body, you have to do it. Move forward.
You know the pilgrimage? Pilgrimage is very good religious practice because you have to continue to move forward, just like a trip. Just move, always forward.
Because mind is always sticking to something, to object. So you cannot deal with your life by your mind, particularly in the middle of pilgrimage.
So carrying the [cane] with Buddha. Anyway, all sentient beings are Buddha. With the universe, whatever you say. Anyway, just moving, in the universe.
And then mind catches up you, catches up to your body. That’s pretty good. Well, not catch up – immediately there.
That’s why Dōgen Zenji says to do zazen with the body. Okay? With the body. The body is pretty good for us.
Read this book; in Chapter 10, Dōgen Zenji mentions one of the koans, and there are very interesting stories there. And also Chapter 9, there are very interesting [pointers] there too.