Blue Cliff Record Case 49: San Sheng’s Golden Fish Who Has Passed through the Net, Talk 1
December 21, 1983 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Summary
Katagiri Roshi discusses the relationship between action, communication, and boundaries. Never rest on your so-called enlightenment. It’s all food for the fish.
Transcript
0:00
Katagiri Roshi: The 49th case [of the Blue Cliff Record]. Cliff, would you read the pointer and case.
Reader:
San Sheng’s Golden Fish Who Has Passed through the Net
Pointer:
Piercing, penetrating, one takes the drum and captures the flag. Fortified, entrenched, one inspects the front and oversees the rear.
One who sits on the tiger’s head to take the tiger’s tail is not yet an adept. Though an ox head disappears and a horse head returns, this too is not yet extraordinary.
But say, how is it when a man who has passed beyond measurements comes? To test I’m citing this old case: look!
Case:
San Sheng asked Hsueh Feng, “I wonder, what does the golden fish who has passed through the net use for food?”
Feng said, “When you come out of the net I’ll tell you.”
Sheng said, “The teacher of fifteen hundred people and you don’t even know what to say!”
Feng said, “My affairs as abbot are many and complicated.”
( From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary)
01:25
Katagiri Roshi: The Pointer:
Piercing, penetrating, one takes the drum and captures the flag. Fortified, entrenched, one inspects the front and oversees the rear.
The first one, “piercing, penetrating, one takes the drum and captures the flag,” means offense of the fortress, as an example. The second one, “fortified, entrenched, one inspects the front and oversees the rear,” means defense of the fortress.
[…] Defense and offense, both exist simultaneously in our lives.
“Piercing, penetrating”: when you try to educate, when you try to teach somebody, you have to “pierce.” “You have to pierce” means you have to hit the drum, and take away the flag of [the] egoistic sense. The word “piercing” means, even if you use [only] one word, [that] one word must be piercing into the human heart. And also, that education must be “penetrating” others: that means your education – with words, with mind, with attitude – must be based on compassion. Otherwise, you cannot penetrate.
So, here it says, “one takes the drum.” That means using the expedient ways, expedient methods – words, physical actions, and also thinking. Anyway, we can approach to the people and teach, and educate; simultaneously that expedient method must penetrate the other’s life. So that is “offense,” offense of the fortress.
When you teach, positively you have to teach, you have to educate. Initiatively, you have to move toward. For this, that education or teaching requires kindness, compassion. In other words, true heart: looking [at] human life for the long run, and then you have to teach. Even though you use one word which is very piercing into other people’s hearts, it is not something “piercing,” because it is based on compassion. Compassion lets you see human life, your life and others’ life, for the long run; otherwise, your education, your teaching, and your presence doesn’t penetrate others. So that’s why positively you have to take care of your life, and also you have to teach others’ lives.
In order to teach others, simultaneously you have to “defend” yourself, against external [and] internal attacks. That means, externally, internally, there are many things, so you have to know the many things externally, you have to know many things internally. That means you have to know yourself, your past life, and present life, future life, and also front and back, and to the right, to the left – you have to know many things. And then you can defend yourself against external and internal attack.
If you read the Diamond Sutra, it always [talks about] a bodhisattva’s life, [in] which they always are careful to take care of their life, watching over the many things externally and internally, so they don’t fall into a pitfall on purpose or consciously.
Even though you are very careful of taking care of your life, watching over the front and back, and to the right, to the left, nevertheless you easily fall into pitfalls before you are conscious of them. This is very common. Before you are conscious of them you fall into the pitfalls – in other words, multiple obstacles.
I was pretty often asked by people to try […] a new drug, particularly in the 1970s; people tried to let me experience drugs and marijuana, et cetera. But fortunately I knew a little bit what marijuana is, and any kind of drugs that people were interested in. That’s why I didn’t take it. If you know something pretty well before you act toward that, well, it’s not necessary to do.
But many people believe that you should experience everything. No, you cannot experience everything, okay? If you try to experience everything, it makes you confused. Because if you act, the result of your action becomes a ghost… something more than you have expected. That is actions.
So, if you know something very clearly [is] dangerous or something unwholesome, I don’t think it’s necessary to go there. If you go there, sometimes you become [like] the insect in the summer jumping into the fire – so, committing suicide. It’s very common. That’s why people are […] suffering from their life very much.
So, “fortified, entrenched, one inspects the front and oversees the rear” – that is a bodhisattva life, to watch over many things in front and in the back of your life. And then, nevertheless, there are lots of obstacles, dangerous situations there.
So, if you know pretty well human life, [you have to know] not only the many things you can see objectively or externally – you have to learn yourself, surrounded by the countless number of feelings, emotions going on inside of your life. That is a human being. And those feelings are acting very subtly, and also sometimes very [greatly]; sometimes very wonderfully, or sometimes painfully. So, you should know the human feelings, human emotions. Many things going on inside.
That’s why, “fortified, entrenched, one inspects the front and oversees the rear.” And then, if you understand yourself, at that time you can accept yourself as a human being, looking at yourself for the long run. And then you understand others, too.
So very naturally, you can accept yourself smoothly. And if you accept yourself, which is called “defense of your fortress,” then very naturally you act initiatively, you can live […] initiatively. That is “offense of the fortress” in your life.
14:12
When I was a child, I had a very bad habit. Particularly in the winter, I went to school, but it was cold – not like in Minneapolis, it was pretty mild, but lots of snow. And on the way to school [my feet felt cold], so I quit going to school, and cried and went back home. I was always scolded by my father.
That was one point. The second point was that I always felt tired […] when I came back from school, so I sat down at the bottom of the stairs, and then always I sighed, loudly. So my father scolded me: “Don’t sigh! Stop sighing.” [He laughs.]
And then after that, when I went to high school, I practiced judo. That practice of judo was pretty good for me, because I could use myself very initiatively. Instead of waiting for something to do, or always accepting myself not initiatively – always withdrawing, looking at myself objectively. That’s why consciously or unconsciously I criticized myself, [and that] criticism made me tired. Even a child does in that way. So, that’s why my father scolded me very much; but I didn’t understand. [But] when I went to high school, we had to practice judo with no excuse. That was pretty good medicine for me, because I did something positively, initiatively, using my life. There was no chance to look at myself objectively, criticizing myself. […] I realized I can do something positively, I can do something pretty good. So [after that], I didn’t feel tired so much. The practice of judo was very hard work, physically, but I didn’t feel tired.
So, since then, I really understand myself, that I should do something positively or initiatively – moving towards something, by myself. Concentrating on jumping in there, and finish, achieve something. Even if I cannot do it.
Well, before you do [something], always there [is a question]: “I can do,” “I cannot do.” But anyway, let’s do it. Don’t do it blindly – as best as you can, you have to know, you have to understand something, as much as possible. But still you cannot see the clear answer [of whether] you can do [it] or you cannot do [it]. But you should start to do [it]. And then, it’s pretty good for us.
But most people don’t do this. [They] always criticize, because [they] always try to get some clear answer, “I can do” or “I cannot do.” Sometimes you can see [whether you can do it]; sometimes there is something you cannot know.
So, since then, [I always answered] loudly “yes,” very positively. Even the answer is very important. If you say [hesitantly] “yes” – that’s it, you know? Very naturally your life is something like that. But if you say “yes” – very positively and loudly, with confidence – you can do it, [or] you can do something. So that spirit is very important.
So, for this, you should accept totally yourself, who you are. Human beings are pretty weak, and human beings possess lots of karmic life you don’t know. Karmic life leads you to go in a completely different direction which you have never thought before. That is karmic life. When you are born, immediately there is a karmic life with you. From this point, you cannot escape from your karmic life, which something set up, exactly. [For this,] you have to totally accept karmic life. At that time, you can defend yourself against attack, externally or internally. And then, simultaneously to defend yourself means to do something positively.
So that is, it says here, “Piercing, penetrating, one takes the drum and captures the flag. Fortified, entrenched, one inspects the front and oversees the rear.” Defense and offense are not two; [they are] simultaneously there. If you defend yourself, it is simultaneously [that] you do something positively. But if you do something positively, well, that is simultaneously you defend yourself. In other words, you protect yourself, […] looking at your life for long run […].
22:40
One who sits on the tiger’s head to take the tiger’s tail is not yet an adept. […]
“One who sits on the tiger’s head to take the tiger’s tail” is to do something perfectly – to act, to achieve something perfectly. That is “to sit on the tiger’s head to take the tiger’s tail”: when you teach somebody, your teachings, your actions, are perfect.
But, even though it is perfect, it’s not good enough.
Because […] if you believe that your life is perfect, simultaneously you create cracks, from which the cold air blows in. Because there is no space, which is called flexibility.
You have to see both offense and defense, defense and offense, working simultaneously. But if you always believe that your life is perfect, at that time you always see the one side of your life, so-called “offense.” So, there is no compassion. You [also] have to defend yourself; [that] means to have compassion, understanding deeply yourself and others. At that time, you can defend yourself. Then you can teach, you can go toward others.
So, that’s why here it says, “One who sits on the tiger’s head to take the tiger’s tail is not yet an adept.” It’s not perfect. It’s not good enough.
Though an ox head disappears and a horse head returns, this too is not yet extraordinary.
The “ox’s head disappears and a horse’s head returns” means to do something very quickly, […] very smartly. Very swiftly, rapidly. You can teach, you can give some impression to people with a word.
Well, you can see such a person. Baker Roshi in San Francisco: he is very smart, he uses words very [well], so people are very impressed by his words. So that is a teaching; pretty good. Very [quick].
If you read this koan, you have to give the words, you have to act, very quickly, rapidly. […] It is perfect; it can really pierce into peoples’ hearts.
But here it says, nevertheless, it is not good enough.
But say, how is it when a man who has passed beyond measurements comes? To test I am citing this old case: look!
28:07
San Sheng asked Hsueh Feng, …
San Sheng was one of Linji’s, Rinzai Zen Master’s [disciples].
… “I wonder, what does the golden fish who has passed through the net use for food?”
That means, when you attain enlightenment, when you become buddha, or when you become a saint – what kind of food do you eat? Do you eat air? Or do you eat the usual food other people do? What kind of food do you eat? That is the question.
“[…] who has passed through the net”: [it] means [you have] passed through the net of […] enlightenment or delusion – or ordinary people or buddha – and [then] completely go beyond. And then you can experience so-called freedom, perfect freedom, or peace. So, that is a golden fish. At that time, you become a golden fish.
So, what does the golden fish who has passed through the net use for food?
Feng said, “When you come out of the net I will tell you.”
Well, San Sheng’s [speaking] like this was wonderful, a very smart and sharp question, because he experienced this […] nirvana, perfect freedom. But Feng said, “When you come out of the net, I will tell you.” His answer was pretty basic; it’s not a real answer. But that he said [something] like this means that he realized that San Sheng already sat on the chair of his enlightenment, even for a moment, but he didn’t realize it.
For instance, [a monk asked Zhaozhou Zen Master], “I [am carrying nothing on my back], what should I drop off?” In other words, he attained enlightenment, so-called nothing: “I [am carrying] nothing.” And then the Zen Master says, “Put down that nothing.” But, [the monk] says, “I [am already carrying] nothing, what should I put down?” The Zen Master says, “Please go home [carrying that].” Do you understand? “Go back home […] with nothing.” It means [the monk] didn’t understand nothing. “Nothing to carry” – but he already carried something, so-called “nothing.”
For instance, I say, “Don’t think.” So you try not to think – it means [you are] already thinking. The same applies to this [story]: “I have nothing to carry,” but the Zen Master says, “Put down the nothing.” “But,” [the monk] says, “I have nothing to put down, what should I put down?” So, the Zen Master says, “If you think so, you should carry it back to your home, if you think how important nothing is for you.” So, he always carried the nothing. But to carry the nothing is no more nothing; it’s already something.
So, the same applies to [this case] too. [San Sheng] experienced that wonderful [nirvana], freedom. So, he says, “What does the golden fish who passes through the net use for food?” That means already he […] has carried the golden fish. So, that’s why Feng said, “When you come out of the net, I will tell you.” Once again you should come out of the net.
34:03
And then,
Sheng said, “The teacher of fifteen hundred people and you don’t even know what to say!”
[…] It is said that [Feng] had […] many monks practicing under him in those days. So, here it says, “That’s why you are a great teacher, because under you there are many students practicing together.” So, he said, “The teacher of fifteen hundred people, you are a great Zen teacher, but you don’t know what to say!” That is really – what would you say – kind of “mean.” “Meanness.”
But,
Feng said, “My affairs as abbot are many and complicated.”
It means, “My task as abbot makes me busy, so I don’t have enough time to discuss it with you now.” So he said [that and] he left.
[And that is also] not a real answer, but he exactly had great skillful methods, so-called “parry.” Sometimes he had a skillful method so-called “thrust.” But on the other hand, parry. [It’s] not escape.
So, in the commentary, it says:
When these adepts met, there was one capture and one release …
You have to capture, you have to take something, when you have to teach, [when] you have to give. […] In order to give, you have to take people – grasp him or her, and give. Simultaneously, you have to release, let it go. That [is the meaning of], “When these adepts met, there was one capture and one release.” You can do it.
For instance, a friend of mine, Yokoi Roshi (Kakudo Yokoi, d. 1975), always taught me many things. One side of his life toward me was very, what would you say, strict; always he captured me. When he captured me, he never released me; he immediately captured [me]. But on the other hand, he released me – he let me free, always. That means compassion, always there is compassion. So, I was pretty mad at him, but simultaneously I cannot escape from this, because there is a release. He didn’t actually let me go, but I myself let go, because I could see his really deep compassion in his life toward me.
So, that’s why, if you educate somebody or if you teach, if you see somebody, if you meet somebody, anyway, you have to always take somebody, otherwise, you cannot devote yourself to do something initiatively. So, you should take something, anyway, grasp it. But it’s not egoistic: you have to release it, let it go. […] It requires you [to have] very deep understanding. That is compassion. And then you can feel, you can take a deep breath there, and also you can let others take a deep breath. That is simultaneously there, and then you can teach.
[Tape change.]
… – (each) acted weak when encountering strength and acted noble when encountering meanness. If you form your understanding in terms of victory and defeat, you haven’t seen Hsueh Feng even in dreams.
“Each acted weak when encountering strength”: When you see somebody always expressing his strength in front of you, you cannot fight. At that time, you should accept him very smoothly. In order to do this, you act weak. You cannot fight; if you fight with him or her, very naturally you express strength. So strength to strength, always fighting… no end of fighting.
So if you see somebody expressing his strength, you act weak. That means, don’t fight with him or her. Very softly, you can do.
On the other hand, each “acted noble when encountering meanness.” You can experience such a situation always. There are always some individuals who are mean to you – [fooling] yourself, [fooling] others, using meanness, words.
I experienced that […] seven years ago, when I was on Fifth Street Southeast. One of the Japanese college students at the University of Minnesota who studied science, he came with his friends, visiting me, and immediately [some of his] first words were, “Are you a Zen Master? If you are a Zen Master, […] are you an enlightened person?” These were his first words. That is so-called “meanness.” It’s really mean. [Laughter.]
So if you fight with this kind of words, you become mean. So [there is] no end of fighting.
[As] I said, there are two things simultaneously exist[ing] in your life, defense and offense. But, there is no sense of victory or defeat. That means you shouldn’t fight, anyway. When somebody really attacks strongly, well, you should withdraw. Withdraw is […] not to lose. Okay? But, [if] some person is pretty weak, sometimes you should push; push him or push her. Do something initiatively.
If somebody really puts you down, well, you should be noble. Anyway, you should be really noble: gentle, compassionate, and patient. In your life, there are always many people who put you down, don’t you think? With words, with actions. At that time, you shouldn’t “bark” at him or her always. Don’t bark back. Even though people bark at you, don’t bark back [at them]. You should be always noble.
So, that’s why Zen Master Feng said, “My affairs as abbot are many and complicated.” And he left!
Both Zen Masters were pretty good in this koan, but they are not discussing about victory or defeat. Both are great Zen teachers. The important point is, you cannot fight each other. You shouldn’t fight. But both Zen Masters accept very smoothly a certain situation, expressing his noble attitude toward a person who is expressing meanness. Just accept the situation, instead of fighting. This is very important.
So, from this point, San Sheng accepts his experience, but instead of expressing his strength, he should express [nobility, gentleness]. He expressed his strength, because he really realized great nirvana, freedom, which is strength – so he expresses strength when encountering strength. That is called sitting on the chair of nirvana, enlightenment. You cannot do that.
That’s why in Buddhism, always you achieve a certain stage, and you should stand up from that seat and move. Then you reach a certain stage, and you should stand up from that seat and move. Instead of always staying there. You cannot do [that].
So, constantly, you have to do it. If you do something, very naturally, you can get a result. But you cannot stay with the result always. Even the good, even the bad. Stand up quickly, as soon as possible, and move, walking straightly.
That is the meaning of this case.
Do you have questions?
48:47
Question: Hojo-san?
Katagiri Roshi: Hai.
Questioner: In several years of listening to talks about Zen, I have never heard talk about taking initiative before. I’m curious, why is it that this is the first time?
Katagiri Roshi: Oh. Zen is a kind of way of living, taking initiative. For instance, the expression is different, [but] Zen says, “Be master of yourself in whatever situation you may be.” This is a way to live your life initiatively. Do you understand?
But “taking initiative” doesn’t mean to rush into a certain destination blindly. People usually say, “You should do something positively.” That means people always do something positively – pretty good, but they don’t understand human life in the broadest perspective, [but] with pretty narrow understanding. And then if you take initiative in your life, it’s trouble. Do you understand the difference?
50:50
Question: I have a question. You said if you know something before, you don’t need to get into [it] to experience about that.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Questioner: But I was thinking that just knowledge and experiencing something is a totally different thing.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, totally different. But you should know also something which happens, totally different, before you think, on the way to experience. On the way to experience, sometimes something happens totally different, which you have never thought before. You should know this, too.
Questioner: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Experience is important. I don’t mean you shouldn’t experience. Sometimes you have to experience, even though you know what it is before you do. Okay? Sometimes you have to do [something]. But […] not everything. […] So that’s why you have to consider carefully […] whether you should do [something] or you shouldn’t do it. Understanding yourself, and also your object.
For instance, […] marijuana and drugs. One of the Zen teachers was forced by the students to take marijuana, and then he became sick. Because he was interested in the tasting, [he laughs,] but he [became] sick. But I don’t think it’s necessary to become sick. So if you know what the marijuana is – fantastic, in a sense, wonderful. But you should know who you are, physically or mentally. Okay? And also you should know what the marijuana is.
Sometimes people attain [a] kind of enlightenment by taking marijuana, of course. But it’s not universal, anyway. [Laughter.] It doesn’t fit to your life sometimes.
Is that okay?
Questioner: … Maybe this is a kind of stupid question, but about marijuana and, well, maybe there are some drugs. Assuming if you take that drug, you can attain enlightenment. And if you have enough of that drug through your whole life, so you can keep up your enlightenment the rest of your life…
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-mm. (No.) [Laughter.] There is no guarantee. [He laughs.]
Questioner: Yeah, but I was just wondering, is that enlightenment and the enlightenment by yourself, could it be different?
Katagiri Roshi: Different from what? Enlightenment through Zen?
Questioner: Mm-hmm.
Katagiri Roshi: Um… kind of… pretty close, but not exactly. Pretty close.
I know there are some people who attain enlightenment [that way]. I don’t know whether we should call it enlightenment or not, you know? Maybe there is some appropriate term, but I don’t know exactly, so let me say enlightenment. So, I know there are some people who attain actually enlightenment through that. The point is that, I [always say], whatever it is, you cannot sit on the chair of something always. [Because “always” is, everything is changing.]
56:05
Question: Hojo-san, I’m still confused by the question… well, not necessarily marijuana or drugs, but just the thing of… how can you know about something before you’re dealing with it or have experience with it?
Katagiri Roshi: Through a book… Through your common sense… You can know many ways. Can’t you?
Questioner: Sure. But then you can say, many people read about Zen before they come to Zen center or get involved. But when they’re reading, it’s not exactly it, when you’re coming and are practicing.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, spiritual experience is something important to you, because you have to experience. But religion is not always to “taste the water” always, not to make an experiment always. Religion is, to experience something you should make experiment or you shouldn’t make experiment, both. Because you cannot make experiment of everything. Don’t you think?
For instance, going to the moon. [He laughs.] How can you go to the moon, [today]? Maybe next century, you will be able to go, if you [are alive]. But now, no chance. But, you cannot ignore that situation.
So in order to understand the human world, human beings very deeply, you have to know that human world, the human beings, which you can make an experiment of them, and which you cannot make an experiment, like going to the moon. Okay?
[Long pause.]
Some people misunderstand Zen, saying Zen is [unintelligible], [which] is “to know by themselves” – to know that the water is cold, by drinking. Do you understand? But it’s not Zen, anyway. [He chuckles.] Because to know something by your experience is something parallel to the human world, universe. Still there are many things you don’t know. But religion or Zen: if you say religion, religion must be something including the whole world, okay? You know, or you cannot know, both. You should hold – include – [the] whole thing.
Nevertheless, you cannot be tossed away, you cannot [panic], even though you cannot know many things. You have to walk, stably, day to day, step by step, always. This is religious practice. And then learn, every day, step by step.
[Closing chant.]