Blue Cliff Record Case 46: Ching Ch’ing’s Sound of Raindrops, Talk 2
August 24, 1983 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Possible Archive Issue: This sounds like the first talk, not the second.
This transcript is in draft stage.
0:00
Katagiri Roshi: … the first Ching is exactly C-h-i-n-g, the second one [is] C-h - apostrophe - i-n-g. [He pronounces Ching Ch’ing.] “Ching Ch’ings Sound of Raindrops.”
The Pointer:
With a single stroke he completes it and passes beyond ordinary and holy. His slightest word can break things up, untying what is bound and releasing what is stuck. As if walking on thin ice or running over sword blades, he sits within the heaps of sound and form, he walks on top of sound and form.
For the moment I leave aside wondrous functioning in all directions. How is it when he leaves that very instant? To test I am citing this old case: look!
The Case:
Ching Ch’ing asked a monk, “What sound is that outside the gate?” The monk said, “The sound of raindrops.”
Ch’ing said, “Sentient beings are inverted. They lose themselves and follow after things.”
The monk said, “What about you, Teacher?”
Ch’ing said, “I almost don’t lose myself.”
The monk said, “What is the meaning of ‘I almost don’t lose myself’?”
Ch’ing said, “Though it still should be easy to express oneself, to say the whole thing has to be difficult.”( From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary)
02:30
[Returning to] the pointer:
With a single stroke he completes it and passes beyond ordinary and holy.
This discussion between Ching Ch’ing and the monk about the sound of raindrops…
I think in the history of Buddhism… first, […] in the early period of time when Buddhism was born, almost right after the Buddha’s death, the image of the Buddha was expressed by a kind of story. You know Jataka [stories]? It’s very fantastic, a Jataka story: it teaches us [about] the Buddha’s past life, in order to respect how great Buddha’s personality, Buddha’s life, was. In order to admire Buddha’s life, people naturally tried to explain the Buddha through his past life. That is a Jataka story, the Jataka Sutra.
And with more development of Buddhism, the image of Buddha was represented not as a story, [but] as mountains, rivers, and birds… the sound of raindrops… Spring, butterflies, […] et cetera. So in the Buddhist scriptures, particularly Zen, I think Zen teachers use the trees, birds, and mountains, skies, and moon – nature – to express buddha nature, and Buddha himself. Or enlightenment, et cetera. Truth.
And in the later period of time, maybe the image of Buddha is represented as a Buddha statue, a picture of Buddha, photograph of Buddha, et cetera. So, [there is] pretty different expression in the history of Buddhist teaching.
So about the sound of raindrops: in this case, “raindrops” is not the usual raindrops, this is the symbol of buddha nature, the symbol of the truth. In order to express, in order to represent the truth, or buddha nature, or Buddha’s personality, the Zen teacher uses the sound of the raindrops.
So the sound of raindrops is not the usual sound of raindrops. Through the usual sound of raindrops you have to have eyes to see deeply what the truth is. Through the raindrops. Through the table, through the flowers. That is the point in this case.
“With a single stroke he completes it and passes beyond ordinary and holy”: [As I said,] through the table, through the sound of the raindrops, through the blooming flowers, through the sound of a stone hitting the bamboo tree […] you can turn [a new leaf]. You are all of a sudden impressed by the flower of the plum tree, the sound of the stone hitting the bamboo. This is religious transformation.
You cannot know how you can turn your new leaf. You don’t know how you can turn at 360 degrees of your life. That is not something which occurs through your intellectual understanding. Because between the phenomenal world [or] your life, and the truth, vastness of existence, there is no gap between. No gap. It’s exactly one. But it’s not “mixed up.”
But when you try to understand the relationship between your life and the truth or vastness of existence, universal life, at that time you naturally create a gap between. And then you are interested in the gap. How can you stop up that gap? In other words, how [does] truth relate [to] or influence your life. Or you are interested in the point [of] how your life connects [to] or touches the truth, vastness of existence or universal life. You’re very interested. But we don’t know. Because actually, [there is] no gap.
When they have no gap between, it means they are functioning totally, at superspeed. They are not dead, they are not stagnant water. They’re not. They are really functioning at superspeed, that’s why no gap between.
I told you before, [there are] lots of colors on [a] top, and when the top is spinning, all the colors become one. But all the colors are not mixed up. They are one, but they are not one, each color is completely independent. Only when the top is spinning, all colors become one. They are not one, they are separate, independent; but they are one, no gap between.
That is the picture of reality you live in. That’s why it’s very difficult to understand the ultimate nature of existence – how you can communicate, how you can touch the truth, or how the truth comes to your life. We don’t know. But only when your life is really fully alive, [it works], it’s becoming one.
But still your intellectual sense is very stubborn, so [you are] always analyzing, synthesizing. So in order to refine your consciousness, which is good enough to see the total picture of the functioning process of your life and the truth, […] that’s why we do zazen. Doing zazen, and studying the Buddha’s teaching – that is really refining your mind.
Only when they are fully functioning, at that time it is a state of oneness. So that’s why even though you don’t understand when you do zazen, anyway zazen and you must be fully alive. That’s all we have to do.
And then when the time is ripe, conditions arranged, [which] means when your body and mind are ready to accept that rhythm of the universe and your life – at that time, you can turn your life at 360 degrees – at a moment of time only. That happens in a moment of time only.
Sometimes you can catch it immediately. Sometimes you are very impressed by this. You can have a big shock. Sometimes you don’t know when it goes in. It sneaks in very slowly, sometimes. For the long range, you understand, but you don’t know when you realize that one.
Sometimes people really experience a big shock. [There are] various ways to experience that oneness.
But whatever experience you have, that experience occurs in a moment of time only. That is a point. That’s why here it says, “with a single stroke he completes it.” Exactly. When you hit the drum or case, in a moment of time, that is the time and space which is complete, [in] which you can complete something. That is [to] turn over. Your life is really turned over, all of a sudden.
So that is “with one stroke he completes it…”
“… and passes beyond ordinary and holy.” We don’t know how, and also we don’t know [whether] it is holy or not. [It is] completely beyond your speculation. Buddha did it? Or some holy power turns your life at 360 degrees? No way. No, I don’t think so. You did it? No. No one knows. No one knows, you cannot deal with it, but only when your life is really fully alive – in a moment of time only, again and again – all of a sudden you can experience religious transformation.
That is called enlightenment.
16:43
His slightest word can break things up, …
If you experience [this], well… your words come up from… say… vastness of existence, which is silent. So from silence, [your word] comes up. That word is really powerful and helpful for you [and] for others. So the slightest hit, the slightest word can break things up.
… untying what is bound and releasing what is stuck.
[…] “What is bound” is the intellectual… what would you say… constraint? But “what is stuck” means, in this case, kind of emotional attachment which is very sticky. It’s pretty hard to cut it off.
But more or less, you can practice every day.
When I was in college, in the beginning of college student life […] it was very hard for me, but toward the end I was also [having] a hard time. So one day I confessed how hard my life was; I [explained] to my teacher about my karma. [Well, I had] sort of a sentimental feeling [he chuckles] – I didn’t cry, but almost cried. But he knew my situation came from kind of a little bit sentimental. So he immediately said, “Katagiri, don’t sit on the chair of your karma.” In other words, don’t enjoy. Don’t enjoy sitting on the chair of your karma. [He laughs.] Because I explained how [hard] my karma is. Do you understand that?
You know, if you cry, if you feel sad or melancholy, or if you feel sentimental… well, sentimental is okay, romantic is alright, but if you become sentimental, people don’t notice [that] you are enjoying sitting on the chair of sentimental. Do you understand? But in order to understand sentimental, you have to stand up from the chair of the sentimental, and then you can understand really, you can be free from. But when you become sentimental, very naturally, we enjoy. We enjoy sitting on the chair of the sentimental.
The problem is we don’t realize that. So very naturally, you really fall into it; your life becomes just like quicksand of the sentimental. So it’s very difficult to get up from that. So that’s why that teacher said, “Katagiri, don’t enjoy sitting on the chair of your karma.” That was a very simple answer, but it was really a strong suggestion for me. I woke up! Really, “My goodness!”
So the words, even the simple words, are very helpful for everyone, if they come from silence, or vastness of existence.
22:17
As if walking on thin ice or running over sword blades, …
[That] means when you walk on thin ice, if you stop [walking] you can break the ice, so you can fall into the lake. So you cannot stop, you have to continue to move.
And also it’s as if “running over sword blades”: if you stop walking, you are walking on the sharp blades of the swords, so your legs are cut in two.
So you have to continually walk without stopping.
… he sits within the heaps of sound and form, he walks on top of sound and form.
“Sound and form” means this usual human world, created by the six consciousnesses.
So, we sit within the heaps of sound and form – within the samsaric world – and then we can practice this. How? Just like walking on the thin ice: continually you should walk. Whatever you feel – scared, or enjoyment – you cannot sit on the enjoyment, et cetera. Whatever you feel, you have to just walk there, without stopping. And [also it’s like] running over swords blades. Anyway, you have to walk constantly there. Where? This is in the human world, the samsaric world. This is really good practice for us. That’s why here it says, “… he sits within the heaps of sound and form, he walks on top of sound and form.”
So how can you experience religious transformation at 360 degrees? You have to continue to walk and run on the top of the sharp blades of a sword.
25:13
For the moment I leave aside wondrous functioning in all directions. How is it when he leaves that very instant?
Well, it’s very difficult to explain how is it when he leaves that very instant. At the very moment of time only, that is a place and that is a time and space which you can turn over your life 360 degrees. “How is it when he leaves that very instant?” – how can you explain this? That’s pretty hard. But here is a case, [an] example. That’s why it says,
To test I am citing this old case: look!
But “he leaves that very instant” means without being involved in the idea of the very moment of time [where] you can experience religious transformation. Because it is nothing but practice, continuous practice. Continuous [walking], continuous running, without stop. This is life.
So if you leave that moment, that moment [in] which you are [always] running, [in] which you are walking constantly, it’s very difficult to explain. Of course we can explain, but it’s very difficult. [Yet] here is a good example; that’s why this koan gives us an example.
27:24
Ching Ch’ing asked a monk, “What sound is that outside the gate?” The monk said, “The sound of raindrops.”
This is a very… honest answer. “What sound is that outside the gate?” And then the monk said, “The sound of raindrops.”
Well, in “the sound of raindrops,” [it] means not only the sound of raindrops. You can say anything. “What sound is that outside the gate?” Maybe you can say, “The sound of a snake eating a frog.” Or you can say, “The sound of the blooming flowers.” You can say, “The sound of morning sunlight.”
So, in this case, maybe it is the time when rain falls. That’s why the monk said, “The sound of raindrops.”
And then Ch’ing said,
“Sentient beings are inverted. They lose themselves and follow after things.”
Sentient beings are inverted. So if you hear the sound of the raindrops through your six consciousness, already you miss the chance to know [raindrops] as raindrops really are. In other words, you missed the chance to understand the truth of raindrops.
In Buddhist psychology, whenever your mind works, there are at least five consciousness [working] always, whatever you may do, wherever you may go.
One is tangibility. Tangibility means communication with the world; touch. That [means] tangibility is kind of one important pole of a house. When you are born in this world, you can communicate with the world, so your life is just like an important pole of the house, supporting the whole structure of the house. So your presence is very important for us. That is called tangibility; touching.
Next, feeling. Feeling means receiving your world. So [there are] several kinds of feeling: a physical pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling, and a mental pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling, and also mental or physical neutral feelings. This is receiving. When you receive the world, immediately your feeling starts [to] work. That is several kinds of work, that is physical unpleasant feeling or pleasant feeling, and neutral feeling, mental pleasant or unpleasant feeling and neutral. Those [start to] work.
And next, perception, so you can create an image of your object in your mind. That is perception.
And next, the fourth is volition, or will. When you receive, and you can experience feeling, and also next you can create [an] image of your object in your mind, and then next your will or volition works.
Then next, the fifth one is a kind of spontaneous attention. So immediately you spontaneously pay attention to your object.
Those five minds always work, whatever you do. As long as you are alive, [they] work. Through these five functions of your mind, we can accept, we can understand, we can discriminate, we can separate. We can synthesize an understanding.
(Transcriber’s Note: These five consciousnesses or functions of the mind are sparśa (contact), vedanā (feeling or reception), saṃjñā (perception), cetanā (thought), and citta (mind). For another presentation on these five, see “Taking Care of Karma”.)
So already you understand the tape recorder, but that tape recorder is not the real tape recorder, because you understand the image of the tape recorder reflected in your mind. So it’s already a little bit crooked – perverted.
So individually, if you see the tape recorder, everyone cannot see the tape recorder in the same feeling, same sense, same perceptions. No, you cannot do it. Everyone accepts that tape recorder in different feelings, different sense, different meaning. So very naturally, the real tape recorder is completely [kept] away from you.
So that’s why if you hear the sound of raindrops, it’s already perverted.
But in Buddhist psychology, Abhidharma, there is still a huge world which is not associated with the functioning of your mind. Whatever kind of mind works in your daily life, still there is vastness of the world. Sometimes they make a list of the things. It’s not necessary to say everything, but for instance: time, space, direction. And also, functioning of the oneness. Differentiation or equanimity – something like this. Or change or maintenance. [Those things], you don’t know. [They’re] always there. Unity, or maintenance, or change, or impermanence. Something always originates – that is energy, it’s always coming up. And when the energy comes up, next moment the energy disappears. Appear, disappear, appear, disappear. [Maintained] and destroy[ed]. Something like this. Those [things] are completely beyond your consciousness; [they’re] always there. So that is called energy, which is vast. It is really vast, completely beyond human speculation.
So, anyway, we have to understand raindrops in terms of this vastness of existence. So when you hear the sound of the raindrops, it’s not good enough. So that’s why, don’t sit on the chair of the understanding of the sound of the raindrops. You have to stand up from the chair you sit [in]. That means, let’s go deeply into the presence of the sound of the raindrops.
So that’s why Ch’ing said, “Sentient beings are inverted. They lose themselves and follow after things.” People always understand the sound of raindrops individually, and then follow, chase after that understanding of raindrops. That’s why everyone has their own way of life. Individual life comes into existence, very naturally. That is alright, but the problem is, we really stick to it, cling to individual life, ignoring others. That’s why that’s a problem for us.
37:57
The monk said, “What about you, Teacher?”
If you say so, how about you? How do you understand the raindrops? How ‘bout you? So,
Ch’ing said, “I almost don’t lose myself.”
[That] means, he didn’t say, “Yes, I understand the sound of the raindrops completely,” or he didn’t say, “I made a mistake.” […] No. So that’s why he says, “I almost don’t lose myself.” That means he is completely free from the sound of raindrops through consciousness, and also the real meaning or significance of raindrops seen in terms of [the] vastness of existence. He doesn’t stay there either.
So,
The monk said, “What is the meaning of ‘I almost don’t lose myself’?”
Ch’ing said, “Though it still should be easy to express oneself, to say the whole thing has to be difficult.”
“It still should be easy to express oneself” means that it’s [a little] easy for us to understand the vastness of existence, practicing again and again, listening to the sound of the raindrops. Through practicing meditation again and again and studying the Buddha’s teaching, it’s a little easier to understand the vastness of existence. That is called enlightenment …
[Tape change.]
… very naturally you will have, well, religious transformation. That is a little easier. But the most difficult thing is to be free from that enlightenment! That’s pretty hard.
In other words, if you attain enlightenment, very naturally we are stuck there. Stuck there means you want to keep it. You don’t want the human world. You want [to be] in the Buddha’s world, so you really want to hold it in your life. That is called you are stuck. You are really stuck. And if you attain enlightenment, you have to be free from that. That is the most difficult point.
So that’s why it says here, “To say the whole thing has to be difficult.”
41:16
On page 324, there is a very interesting teaching given by [Yuan Wu in the] second paragraph:
(Ch’ing’s words in the Case) are also called “penetrating sound and form,” …
[There are] five points here [in] his teaching.
One point is “explaining the eye of the Path.”
Second point is “explaining sound and form.”
Third, “explaining the mind source.”
Fourth, “explaining forgetting feelings.”
Fifth, “explaining preaching” – that teaching of [the] process of how you can go deeply into… well, the sound of raindrops.
42:31
The first one is “explaining the eye of the path.” That means you should have the third eye; that means the eye of the path: deep understanding. In other words, that is your magnanimity, tolerance, patience, effort, […]. And also wisdom and tranquility. [The] six paramitas. That is the eye of the path.
With your third eye you have to see the human world. For this, you cannot understand mountains in terms of your views, and you cannot judge it immediately. So you have to be patient, and you have to be magnanimous, to understand total picture of the mountains, including the clouds and skies, human beings, birds, trees, et cetera. For this, you have to continue to practice at least the six paramitas.
That is with the eyes of the path. At that time, you can understand the whole world, which is buddha. Everything is buddha.
But before you attain enlightenment, how can you understand everything is buddha? So, even [if] you don’t understand, there is a good example mentioned by buddhas and ancestors: that is the Buddhist scriptures, [the] teaching. So through the teaching, you can see the destination, in which direction you should go. That is the teaching. So through the teaching you should find the destination, which is called everything is buddha. That is your destination; you should go [toward it].
So even though you don’t understand, you don’t experience this, actually through the teaching you should find the destination. So you should accept that destination, because this is the destination you have to go [toward]. So that is called faith, or belief. Or receive and keep it. In the Lotus Sutra, [it] always says “receive and keep, and practice.” So faith is [to] totally accept and receive, receive the Buddha’s teaching.
So at that time, all sentient beings become buddha. According to Genjokoan, Dogen Zenji says, “When […] all dharmas are buddha dharma, there is enlightenment and delusion, practice, life and death, buddhas and creatures.” Something like this. [This is] exactly the same. So you can accept totally all sentient beings as equal entities, no discrimination.
That is seeing the human world, human beings, with the eyes of the path. That is the first point.
46:44
The second [point]: “Explaining sound and form.” Next, you have to understand what the sounds and forms are. That means what the enlightenment [and] delusion – or ordinary people and bodhisattvas and buddhas – are, what they are. What the trees are, what the birds are.
If the birds are buddha nature, [do the] birds have a kind of lamp of buddha, a kind of “avocado seed”? No, I don’t think so. Buddha means human beings and birds and trees are all the same. That means no particular form of the self. That is equality. That is egolessness.
So, according the Genjokoan, Dogen Zenji says, “When the ten thousand dharmas are without self, there are no delusions, no enlightenment, no buddhas, no creatures, no life and no death.” Very naturally, you can see the real picture of the microphone, real picture of the trees. That is really no-self.
No-self means that everything has a certain reason why they exist. Even devils. Even trees, even birds. They have a reason why they exist, completely beyond human speculation, good or bad, right or wrong. So they exist, exactly. That is called buddha nature.
So that is no particular prejudice – in terms of a certain idea, individual understanding, or psychological viewpoint, or physical viewpoint, or biological viewpoint. No. Completely nothing.
So that is a second point, “explaining sound and form.”
49:22
The third point: “Explaining the mind source.”
So from this point, the third one is explaining the mind source: [it] means what is the reality we exist. What is the reality we and trees and birds exist. That is the source of existence. The source of you; the source of tree; the source of bird. What is the reality? Is it only open to human beings, or a particular creature? No. Reality is completely beyond human speculation – good or bad, right and wrong, or evaluation, pros and cons, success and failure. This is the real reality you are present in.
So according to Dogen’s term[s], Dogen [says] very simply, “The buddha way transcends being and nonbeing, therefore there are life and death, delusion and enlightenment, creatures and buddhas.” So [it is] who you are. You are completely buddha way – [that] means you are completely beyond people’s criticism, or judgement, evaluation. Good or bad, right and wrong. This is the real picture of your life.
So that is really [valuable].
That is the third point, “explaining the mind source.”
51:20
The fourth: “Explaining forgetting feeling.”
[…] If so – [if] the real reality we exist, the real reality of our lives, the real reality of my type of me, is completely beyond the idea of being or not being, or [the] idea of good or bad, right or wrong – so, who am I? I am completely beyond my speculation and your speculation: that means my life is really clear water. But in the clear water, I can live. In the realm of freedom, I can exist. So what kind of life happens?
It depends on me; my actions.
My actions are based on feelings, perceptions, impulses, [and] consciousness. So when the flowers fall, Katagiri feels a little bit sad, because I want to keep the flowers blooming constantly. When the weeds grow, I hate it. This is very [real]. When I create hatred, I drop black ink into the clear water. This is my actions, this is my life.
So it really depends on individual actions, individual life in motion, every day. Because basically your life is clear water, beyond good or bad, right and wrong: so-called buddha nature. You cannot say you are “bad boy,” you cannot say you are “good boy”; this is the real reality of your life. But nevertheless, your individual life is there! What is this? This is really depending on your actions: you can create your own life, depending on your actions. Blue ink, and red ink; black ink sometimes. And then [you] create lots [of world].
So that’s why Dogen Zenji says next in Genjokoan, “However.” “The buddha way transcends being and nonbeing, therefore there are life and death, ordinary people and buddhas…” And everyone exists, beyond good or bad, right or wrong. That’s why can live – because we have everything as a reason why it exists. No comment. Nothing to destroy. This is a peaceful world. “However,” we have to return to human life. If you are a human being, you have to return to human being. Come back to reality. Wake up. You cannot stay always [in the] peaceful world, [tranquility], silence – no. You have to come back, because you create your own life, from moment to moment. So that’s why Dogen Zenji says, “However, flowers fall just giving rise to attachment, and weeds spring up arousing antipathy.”
So this is reality, this is a fact you experience. Whatever you say, philosophical or psychological, well, this is a fact.
So very naturally, pay careful attention to your feeling, anyway. When the flowers fall, you feel a little bit melancholy, or pensive. This is you; this is a human being. Don’t destroy this feeling – but don’t stay with it for long. If you want to cry, you can cry, but you cannot stay with it for long. Because if you stay with, it means you stop on the sharp blade of the sword, and naturally, your feet are cut. So we have to continue to walk on the blade of the sword.
That’s why next [there is] “explaining forgetting feeling.” Forgetting feeling means not exactly forgetting. This is kind of a Rinzai type (of expression). [He laughs.] “Enlightenment, and then next, you have to come back to the human world – but if you come back to the human world, you have lots of emotions, feelings. So forget it.” You know? You just keep standing in the Buddha’s world. Sharp sword! That’s why Rinzai is very sharp: always very vigorous and vital.
But Dogen Zenji is a little bit different. A little bit soft, and very realistic. And also very romantic. [He chuckles.] Not the usual romantic, but pretty romantic. High level of romantic. [He chuckles, and people laugh.] And also very realistic.
So Dogen Zenji doesn’t scream, and [he’s] not “vigorous,” not “enthusiastic,” not “tough.” Very soft. But in the bottom of his life, it’s really strong vitality there, which makes his life continually going, without stop. But it is [a] very quiet way of life.
So anyway, the fourth point is “explaining forgetting feelings.”
58:12
And the fifth: “Explaining preaching.”
That’s why Rinzai is always spitting from that “forgetting the feeling.” So [they] immediately scream, and completely ignore human feelings, the human world, et cetera. This is kind of a Rinzai type. I don’t mean it is wrong. It’s alright, but…
[…] Dogen’s way is, finally, he says, “To practice and realize the myriad dharmas by conveying the self to them is delusion. That the myriad dharmas advance and practice and realize the self is enlightenment.” In other words, “to practice and realize the myriad dharmas by conveying the self to them”: if you want to understand the sound of raindrops, first of all you have to convey yourself. I mean, you have to – what would you say – move toward.
If you want to make a poem of a pine tree, you have to move toward the pine tree first, initiatively. And then you can practice and realize what the pine tree is, in nature. Not only the pine tree: as a whole, you have to understand the pine tree in nature. That means you have to move toward that; you should convey yourself, you should carry yourself toward that pine tree. And then, very naturally, you can practice the pine tree and realize the pine tree. And then next, the pine tree comes up to you. In other words, the pine tree tells you what it is, [tells you] about the life of the pine tree which you have never seen before. So very naturally you can move there, and then, the pine tree moves to you. Simultaneously there is spiritual communion there. At that time, you can compose a poem.
Just like a mountaineer. If you climb a mountain, you always climb the mountain, and then finally the mountain tells you what the mountain is, what the beauty of the mountain is. So if you do it constantly, the mountain teaches you about your life, about the life of the mountains, about the trees, birds.
At that time, [Dogen] says, “The myriad dharmas advance and practice and realize the self.” In other words, you are drawn in by the mountains and birds, trees. If you climb the mountain constantly, without stop, day by day, year after year, you are drawn in by the life of mountains. So that is really great experience. That is so-called total picture of enlightenment.
Before this, you have to come back [to] the fact of human feeling, human warmness. You feel pensive when the flower falls. This is alright. [He chuckles slightly.] But an important point is: you cannot ignore the feelings, you cannot ignore the human warmness, whatever kind of emotions. You cannot. So anyway, return to human life again, and then pay attention to it. [That] means don’t be carried away so much, but don’t stay with it, whatever it is.
So all you have to do is, let’s continue [to] practice. What do I mean? Let’s try to move toward [the] destination, so-called buddha. In other words, if you want to compose a poem about nature, you have to move toward nature first, you have to convey yourself to nature. And then nature comes up to you, nature teaches you about your life, about the life of nature. That is called continuous practice; Buddhist practice.
And then this is really big enlightenment. But sometimes, you don’t know. Not sometimes – always you don’t know, how great it is. But when the time comes, conditions arranged, you can experience something. In a moment of time only. That is experience, religious transformation.
Sometimes it’s a big shock, but sometimes it’s very “sneaking in.” You don’t know when, but if you continue to practice, very naturally, that great enlightenment penetrates your life.
All right… do you have questions?
1:04:34
Question: Hojo-san? Why did you say that to advance towards things is delusion, when it’s this essential part of our understanding of life? Why does he say – I don’t know his wording on it, but he says “to advance toward things is delusion, to let things…”
Katagiri Roshi: Moving toward…
Same person: Yeah, moving toward. Why does he call that delusion?
Katagiri Roshi: [It’s delusion] in a good sense. Because delusion also has a reason why it exists. Without delusion, you cannot move toward the destination, so-called buddha. So delusion is nice.
So for this, delusion is moving toward. In other words, initiatively, you should act. You should act, you should build up your life. You should take care of your life every day, whatever reason you have. That is delusion. Because you can understand human life. You can understand how strong you are, how weak you are. You understand your life. But it’s delusion because it’s pretty easy for us to be, well, just crushed, or carried away by learning of your life. So in many ways, delusions.
But delusions are also nothing but entities, as a buddha. So we have to go through the delusions, beings, […] taking care of human life again and again, initiatively, until your life tells you about your life and about others’ life. So very naturally, you can experience … spiritual communication.
1:07:11
Question: Hojo-san? You mentioned that the beautiful destination that takes place in a moment is “a 360 degree turn.” I’m just curious whether you mean 360 or whether you mean 180.
Katagiri Roshi: 180 is okay…
[Laughter.]
180 degree [is a] quite moderate experience, you know? [An experience] which makes you joyful. But 360 degree: not much excitement. Because you turn, and come back to yourself! So you are a very usual guy; you are not a saint. But if you turn your life at 180, you become a saint. Don’t you think so? [He laughs, and someone else laughs.] You feel good!
Well, even though you don’t say “I am a saint,” you say, “I am the good spirit of a Zen student,” don’t you think so? If you practice for ten years: [serious voice] “I am an advanced student.” [He laughs.]
Is that alright?
Friday morning, I want to have a simple memorial service for Abigail. This is Abigail. She died two weeks ago, with cancer. So I’d like to have a memorial service on Friday.
[Closing chant begins.]