Katagiri Roshi’s Zazen Instruction
This is an audio recording of Katagiri Roshi offering zazen instruction, posted by Dharma Field Zen Center on YouTube. Katagiri Roshi visited the Menomonie, Wisconsin Zen group in 1981 and offered zazen instruction. This recording is a very valuable resource, as Katagiri Roshi is offering the most basic instruction in Zen. Also, this talk is relatively short and the audio is better quality than the compressed MP3 files in the archive, making it quite listenable. Strongly recommended.
“Katagiri Roshi Meditation Instruction” on YouTube, posted by Dharma Field Zen Center:
Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
Part 1
[…] Zazen means Zen meditation, in Japanese za-zen. Za is sitting, zen is zen, tranquility. I always use the term zazen, because the zazen we do is a little different from the meditation that […] other religions do. That’s why I want to use the original term zazen.
In Chinese, etymologically, the za [is that] two persons sit in the universe. (Transcriber’s Note: The character za 坐 depicts two people 人 sitting on the ground 土.) […] That means you have to sit with more than two beings – not only human beings – you cannot sit alone. So you should sit with more than two beings: in the earth, in the universe – not in your own egoistic, selfish territory. You must open yourself and sit in the universe, [so] very naturally you have to sit with all sentient beings. That is called sitting.
And then, very naturally through this sitting, that sitting is exactly zen, tranquility. Because all sentient beings around you are exactly sitting with you! So very naturally that is called zen: tranquility.
So you, and the universe, earth, all beings, and all circumstances, […] become sitting with you, together. This is called zazen. So all we have to do is to do our best to sit in the universe with all sentient beings. That’s all we have to do.
Don’t expect anything special, okay? [Other than] this. Just do your best to do this zazen.
Just like a spinning top. The top is spinning; just spinning. At that time, the top becomes still on the floor, very naturally. So that’s all you have to do. But if you expect even slightly something from zazen, zazen becomes a means to an end. At that time, [there is] zazen and also purpose. So very naturally, there is something else! So very naturally you cannot [be] always exactly sitting, you cannot do your best to do sitting, because you expect something extra, [other than] zazen. So when you want to do zazen, anyway, do your zazen. That’s all we have to do!
If you feel hungry, all you have to do is just eat, and then after eating you can very naturally see something. But before you eat, you cannot expect a full stomach, because you [haven’t eaten] yet. So all you have to do is, you have to eat.
But intellectually you have to know: what is zazen, what is the purpose, what’s the meaning of zazen, et cetera. So that’s why we have to explain: how to do zazen, how to eat breakfast, how to eat supper, et cetera. But when you jump into the activities, [jump] with the full functioning of your intellectual sense … and just eat. It’s not just eat blindly. With your full attention, your full kindness – then you eat. And then very naturally, you can see something else.
So, that is zazen. But usually we always expect something before you do zazen, [we expect something] from the zazen. Don’t you think so? So always your mind is spinning: “What is zazen? What’s the purpose of zazen?” If you do zazen, you have heard something about zazen from your friends, or from books: “Zazen makes you calm.” So very naturally you expect calmness; so when you sit in zazen, then you expect the calmness. But actually your mind is busy! It’s pretty hard to find the calmness. So you are confused very much.
So calmness or not calmness, that is an intellectual understanding, temporarily. “What is zazen? What is the purpose? What do you mean?” Et cetera. “Why do you have to do it?” Many reasons there. But when you start to do zazen, forget those explanations and just sit.
There are three points we have to follow: harmonizing body; harmonizing mind; harmonizing your breath. Three points, in zazen.
So, let me show [you] first how to do zazen. And then I will explain a little bit, after that.
6:30
[…] For this, we use these round cushions. If you don’t use a round cushion, very naturally the center gravity is around the hips. So if you fall asleep, you fall down, like this. [There are some chuckles.] Because this posture is very unstable. If you sit like this it seems to be comfortable, but it’s not comfortable as a whole. Because you oppress your intestines, so your intestines don’t work, you know? And also your heart is oppressed, so you cannot breathe well. And also if you cannot breathe well, then very naturally your nerves become irritated, and your hormones cannot keep balance. So very naturally as a whole you become irritated, so you cannot sit for [very long].
So even if you [feel] uncomfortable sitting straight, this is pretty good for us. Because if you straighten your back and front, very naturally all your organs operate very well.
So we use these cushions. If you use this cushion, very naturally this zazen forms a three-dimensional triangle, and then the center of gravity is right in the middle of this triangle. So it makes your posture very stable. Even if you fall asleep in zazen, you cannot fall. So just like this. So while you do zazen can sleep well, very naturally - just like this. [Laughter.] So that’s why we do this posture.
And also there are two postures: half-lotus – this is half-lotus. Or vice-versa: your left leg on the right side. This is the half-lotus. And also full-lotus is like this: both your legs up on your knee.
And then, if you do this posture, your weight is put on the three points: two knees and the hips. Two knees on the square cushion, and the hips on the round cushion. So, this is the posture. Posture is very important.
Next, put your hand palm upward on your knee. Then, take deep breaths. Open your mouth just slightly. Let the breath in through your mouth, and when you inhale your body is arching backward a little bit, stretching the front. Very slowly, with full attention, okay? And then when you exhale, your body is arching forward, just like taking away all the inhaled breath from the lower abdomen. Just arching forward. Do you understand okay? Let’s repeat this one.
And then next, lean to the right as you exhale, stretching out the left side of your body. And bring your body back to the center as you inhale. And exhale while leaning to the left, stretching out the right side of your body. And inhale and bring it back to the center. Let’s repeat this […]. And the motion goes from large to small. This is a very important practice before you sit. This is a preparation for your sitting – physically and mentally.
And then next, your left hand, palm upward, is placed on your right palm, and the thumbs just touch each-other, right above your middle finger. Not forward, and not backward: right above the middle finger. Making the form of an ellipse – not a circle, not a square. Like this. Not a loose feeling, not tense. A very soft, gentle form you should make.
This is called the cosmic mudra. This is the symbol of the cosmic universe. We cannot exist without the universe, so we should appreciate the universe. To appreciate the universe means you should do something with the universe, physically and mentally. So why don’t you show the universe? But a universe is big! But we can know the characteristic of a universe: to unify two beings, together, in peace, in harmony. So that’s why two hands are put together like this. And this is the universe.
So if you believe this symbol of the universe made by your hands – well, that symbol really works. But if you don’t believe, the symbol is just a symbol. It doesn’t work, in you.
Just like the American flag. If you see the American flag, you stand up and you do this, and then the symbol of American flag works with you. The same applies to this. This is a symbol, but a symbol is not a symbol, a symbol is something which should [be] alive in you – when you make it alive, when you use it. At that time, symbol really works. But a symbol itself doesn’t have any sense. So only when you use it, it really works.
So anyway, that’s why we make a universe with two hands. And then the universe must be one with you, with the center of gravity. That center of the gravity is always lower abdomen, so this universe must be touched to the lower abdomen.
And the thumbs are placed a few inches below the navel: not too high, not too low.
And your arms go forward a little bit – not too much, like this, not [touching] the side of your body. So go a little forward. Just like holding raw eggs under your arm: neither crush, nor drop. Okay? And then very naturally your arms become relaxed.
Next, in the lower back, push it forward, a little hard, and then [adjust a little]. This practice is a little hard for you, because you have never done it before. So if you do zazen like this, next day you [may] have a sore back. […] But you are alive, anyway. And you body, your mind is working very normally. So don’t worry about this.
So, push the lower back first, and [adjust a little]. And straighten your […] upper back, and your head. And keep your neck in parallel with the wall, first. And then, without moving your neck, pull your chin in, [so that you] feel like [you’re] pushing the ceiling with the top of the back of your head. And then very naturally your back becomes taut. Just like sticking a straight stick from the top of your head to the bottom.
And then, very naturally your eyes cast on the floor, and looking at a certain point on the floor – a little wide area. Don’t pick up [stains] from the floor. Just cast down your eyes. And then this area is almost in the same distance as your sitting height. So very naturally your eyes open just slightly – not wide, not closed. If you close your eyes, you really enjoy innate visualizations. […] If your open your eyes too much, that is also trouble: your mind scatters. So not wide open, not closed. But in the beginning of zazen if it is difficult to take care of your mind, at that time you can close your eyes – for a while. Okay? For a while. And then as soon as possible, you should open your eyes.
So let’s have this posture, and cast down your eyes on the floor, your eyes open just slightly. And at that time, your nose and navel are in a vertical line; and ears and shoulders in the same straight line. That means you cannot lean forward, you cannot lean backward. You cannot lean to the right or to the left. Exactly straight up. Just like a mountain.
This posture really teaches us a middle way. Exactly middle way: neither attaching to the right or to the left, regarded as two extremes, ideas. Not to the right or the left, not front or back: just straight in the center. That means the middle way.
But the middle way is not going in the middle, but we know both, all situations. And then you can walk in the middle.
So you have to keep your body always not tipping forward, or leaning backward, or leaning to the right, to the left. You have to watch. You have to understand the whole situation there.
And then next, bring your teeth together, and lips together. And also your tongue should be touched to the roof of your mouth, as natural as you can. And very naturally your mouth is closed.
Next, let the breath in through your nose, and let it go down to the lower abdomen. And let all the inhaled breath out through your nose, slowly.
Okay, let’s repeat this breathing.
When you have a proper posture physically, very naturally your breathing is going in and out, from your nose to the lower abdomen, without stopping on the way to the lower abdomen.
Part 2
That is breathing.
If you pay attention to the breath, the rate of the breathing, respiration, becomes a little bit slow. Not too slow, not too fast – but if you pay attention to your respiration, respiration goes a little bit more slowly than as usual.
Sometimes you have a problem for your breath. At that time, let it go, as naturally as you can, for a while. Just breathe naturally for a while, if you have a problem. [Like] stomach pain, because you pushed the breath too much, to let it go down to the lower abdomen. At that time sometimes you have too much tension on the lower abdomen. Or sometimes you cannot breathe well. So at that time, let it go, and breathe as naturally as you can. For a while.
Don’t worry about [whether a breath is a] good breath or bad breath. Don’t worry about this. Don’t worry about judgement. But if you see a not good situation of your breath, let it go for awhile, and take care of this situation of your breath, to return to normal. If you are irritated, [trying] to control your breath, at that time you make more [of a] problem. So sometimes you can control [it], but sometimes you cannot control [it]. So if you cannot control [it], for a while let it go, then see what is the problem. You can do [this].
Breathing is always changing. You cannot keep a certain pattern of your breath. Constantly changing – according to your emotion, according to your feeling, and also physical condition, and also external circumstances. [And] internal circumstances – body too. Always changing.
2 - 2:55
And then next, the mind – harmonizing your mind. The mind is really busy – like a monkey. So anyway, take care of your mind.
So [taking care of your] mind should be: let your mind sit in zazen with you. Constantly.
Don’t let it go. If you let it go, it runs wild.
Anyway, let whatever kind of mind – monkey mind, or good mind, or calm mind, whatever it is – let your monkey mind sit together with you. That is a point.
So for this, your mind should be with your breath.
For this, when you inhale, maybe you can concentrate on [the] lower abdomen going out, and when you exhale, you can concentrate on the lower abdomen going in. Or, you can do the reverse. When you inhale, your lower abdomen goes in, and when you exhale, your abdomen goes out. Can you do this? This is a little bit “unusual” way [he chuckles]: usually when you inhale, the lower abdomen goes out, when you exhale, it goes in. So either way, you can do. Particularly when you feel sleepy or when you’re really lazy and […] losing the spirit, at that time a little bit practice breathing when you inhale and your lower abdomen goes in, a little bit, and [it’s] a little slow. And when you exhale, the lower abdomen goes out. This is pretty good. It wakes you up. Sometimes. [He chuckles.] So a little slowly – particularly when you exhale, a little more slowly.
This is the breathing. It’s pretty good practice.
So either way. Always your mind must be with the breath. But mind goes, immediately. So at that time, take it back. Bring it back to your zazen.
But very often, your mind is just like a wild kid. A really wild kid. Always he is screaming, and going out… and you are just like a mother. So always take [him] back. Okay?
So probably I don’t know how often you should take him back to your zazen. Maybe your whole period of zazen. You always see the mind going out, and take him back, and going out, take him back – always. So finally you say, “What is zazen?” You don’t understand zazen’s meaning. But that’s alright, that’s alright… don’t worry. All you have to do is, see the mind: where is it? And then if it goes, take it back. With your best. That’s all we have to do.
Okay. This is zazen.
For a while, I will correct your posture.
[Some posture correction takes place.]
Okay, when the zazen is over, we release the posture of your hands. Put them on your knee, like this, palm upward. And move to the right, to the left, going from small motion to large. First drop down your head to the right shoulder as you exhale, and bring your head back to the center as you inhale. And drop down your head to the left shoulder as you exhale, and inhale and bring it back to the center. Let’s repeat. And the swinging is going from small motion to large.
Your mind has been very quiet, so after zazen you cannot [move or] act roughly. That’s why this swinging must be going from small motion to large, like this.
And then release your posture of your legs, and stretch out.
And then you can stand up.
Part 3
I want to say a few points in zazen which are very important.
I told you there are three crucial points you have to attention to in zazen: harmonizing the body, harmonizing the breath, harmonizing your mind. That is very important.
So in this case, first of all you have to make arrangement of circumstances: the zendo, sitting place. Our external circumstances. So, not a messy room, not a stinky room, not too bright, not too dark, not too cold, not too hot. Not much [draft]. So you should adjust the external circumstances for your sitting.
And also, next, that is posture. Posture you have already learned. That proper physical posture means to keep balance; to keep your body balanced. If you have this straight posture like this, that is exactly you keep your body balanced, externally, physically. And simultaneously that’s connected with the nervous system – the brain stem. Central nerves and spinal cord are exactly connected. So if you have a proper posture physically, that means exactly the function of the brain stem works and keeps in balance, exactly. That’s exactly [what it] means. So that’s why sitting in proper posture is important.
So if you’re sitting like this, [demonstrating a posture], you cannot sit for long, and also you cannot really concentrate on the sitting. If you sit like this, which means too comfortable posture for you [he laughs]: at that time thinking, thoughts coming up. So it’s very difficult to become sort of tranquil.
So, that is physical posture.
And next, harmonizing the breath, harmonizing the mind. This is also very important.
External physical condition, or internal physical condition. The human body is characterized by sort of … homeostasis. So if you are harmonizing your breath, harmonizing your mind, that is exactly keeping the function of your brain stem completely in balance, creating a strong feeling of being present right-now-right-here. Because the central nerves [are] working pretty well, and also the frontal lobe, the cerebral cortex, really rests perfectly. When the cerebral cortex rests… if you can make it rest, well, it works very naturally, smoothly, without giving any pressure to the central nerve. So central nerve and your brainstem and cerebral cortex and all things work pretty well. So very naturally, the function of the hormones [works] pretty well, breathing is pretty well. And then very naturally, mind blooms… so-called tranquil. So very naturally you really feel strongly or stably being present, right-now-right-here.
On the other hand, when the external or internal physical condition operates pretty well, at that time you can create vitalities, you can feel really strong vitalities.
So two things you can realize through this practice. You can feel exactly being present, completely beyond you like or you don’t like, just being present; you can notice this, through this sitting. On the other hand, you can realize vitality. You want to live, you want to be present; that is vitality. Two things come up. So sometimes you don’t know what to do. Strong vitality comes up, energy comes up. [He laughs.] But at that time, don’t worry, don’t worry. Just let it go. Just… be with it. But if you poke your head into something extra, something particular – vitalities, energies – depressing energy or strong energies, et cetera – that is a problem for you. So don’t worry – whatever kind of energy comes up, all you have to do is just sitting continually, keeping balance.
So very naturally your whole body and mind is characterized by homeostasis, constantly keeping balance. That is influencing your life. And also you can… fit your life into human society through this experience. So, you bring your body and mind into human society, but your mind and body are very calm and keeping balance. And also, […] you help somebody with this situation of your body and mind, even though you don’t say [anything].
So when you join human society, still you can really experience this feeling of being present stably and securely; on the other hand, feeling of desire to be present. Both. But both are completely working in equality. So that is keeping balance; exactly keeping balance.
You cannot always keep calm… because you have to act! Even though you sit down, it is acting. Even though you don’t say anything, it is acting. So in order to act, you need vitality, energy. Don’t you think so?
So, both. But both don’t interrupt each other. Exactly keeping balance. This is characteristic of your bodies, externally or internally. That is called homeostasis. Completely.
Let’s keep this function, characteristic of your body and mind like this.
[Tape break.]
You can help people like this, and also you can help yourself like this. So very naturally you can really enjoy yourself.
At that time, still it is a problem! So-called egoistic. “I am a great man” – like this. That is ego. It’s ego.
Or, there is a very strong desire: “I want to keep this. I want to be a good boy, wherever I am, so I want to do zazen.” So sometimes [you] kick out anybody who interrupts you. So [you kick them] out and [say], “I want do zazen.” You don’t care about family, you don’t care about school, you don’t care about the office. Sometimes you really want to do it. This is egoistic. In a sense, egoistic.
So the more you realize how wonderful the function of homeostasis [is that] you can realize, it becomes selfish. So finally, all you have to do is: forget it! [He chuckles.] All you have to do is, day by day, just keep this practice. Just, on and on. Without expectation [of] anything. Just keep it.
That is a religious practice. [He chuckles.] Okay?
But before this, if you attach to the good aspect of your experience through zazen, at that time you create a certain expectation through the zazen. “Enlightenment! More, more, more!” Desires going endlessly. At that time, you cannot become peaceful, because, “More, more! Better life, better life!” It keeps you busy. So [where] is the peace? In zazen you are confused [because] you are not in peace.
So zazen is exactly [a symbol of] peace. Exactly. That means around the zazen, [there is] nothing to touch to zazen. Only zazen is standing there. That’s all!
But if you really realize how wonderful zazen is, you are exactly creating more desire to experience something more: “I want to be a good boy,” “I want to help people,” “I want to do zazen more,” “I don’t care about human problems”… [he laughs] Always those things come up. And then very naturally, how many hours should I do it, in order to get the “good boy”? So very naturally it goes on and on, desires coming up. Don’t you think so? So where is the peace? You are completely doing the same things as you do usually.
But why do you do zazen? I don’t know why, but because consciously or unconsciously you want to be peaceful, don’t you? [He laughs.] Well, even if you don’t know, unconsciously or consciously you want to be present in peace and harmony, right now, right here. That’s all you have to do. For this, why don’t you just sit?
So […] all you have to is harmonizing your mind, and the body, and breath. And then you can realize the two feelings. [First,] being present exactly beyond your like or dislike – you really appreciate your presence, realizing how valuable you are, [how valuable] your presence is. Second: strong vitality comes up, constantly. Both don’t bother each other; [they are] exactly keeping in balance. That is called peace, or tranquility. This is really helping people, and helping you.
But at that time, if you expect these rewards from zazen, it is exactly not religious practice, it is just like the same things as you do in your everyday life. Do something, and then what? Do something, and then what? I get [the two things], good things, and then what? Always what, what, what?
It keeps you busy. In a sense, it’s fun. But in a sense it’s a cause of trouble. So you never find peace.
But zazen is exactly to realize who you are. Not losing the energy, not losing the vitality, not losing yourself as you really are. That’s all you have to do. That is important for us. For this: whatever you experience, forget it! Okay? All you have to do is to carry it forever. Just like the water of the Ganges river: just going. That is really great power, supporting your life, behind your life. You don’t see it – but it’s really great help. That is called security: spiritual security.
But in the human world, always we can see something: if you do something, then you can get [some] power. Or mentally or physically or materialistically, you can get power. But that power is always you get the power, next moment it disappears. Don’t you think so? Always it disappears. And then next you can get more; and next moment it disappears. What are you doing, finally?
But zazen is not like this.
So wherever you can get power, physically or mentally: that’s fine. Don’t worry about that. All you have to do is just carry the zazen. Just like this. Through which you can get any kind of powers. You can get it, but the power you can get is not important; that is secondary. Helping so much… [well,] you can get it. But don’t worry about this; don’t hang around this. Appreciate it! Appreciate those experiences. But don’t hang around. All you have to do is just to carry your zazen.
That means experience that perfect harmony. You can experience harmony, and you can help others, and you can help you.
And then Dogen Zenji says finally, “This experience should be shared with not only your friends, [but] all sentient beings.” Anyway, give it to all sentient beings.
So – why should I keep it? [He laughs.] All I can keep is, just zazen. So whatever I can have, share it with all sentient beings. Give it.
And then, that is a great practice for us. Very naturally you can get [real] power, behind the power you can see. That is called personality; spiritual security. That is deepening your life.
Okay. That’s all.
Part 4
Do you have questions about zazen? Any questions?
Question: Is there any mantra or anything that you use during meditation?
Katagiri Roshi: No. No mantra. Okay? [He laughs.] That’s pretty hard, but… nothing brought into your zazen. So all you have to do is just take best care of your zazen, using the physical body, and mind. That’s all you have to do. If you bring something extra, so-called mantra, so-called statements given by Jesus or Buddha, et cetera, that is extra. Extra means here is one thing; something extra here.
If you have an extra, you can see this finger objectively, you cannot be exactly subjective. Do you understand? If you do zazen, you must be zazen. You must be zazen. But if you bring a mantra or whatever it is, it’s extra. So through the mantra you can touch the zazen: “Ha ha, good zazen.” [He laughs.] But that is already you stir up the water to make it dirty. Do you understand?
4 - 1:37
Question: Could you go over the eyes again? They are staring at an area, not a spot? Is that what you said?
Katagiri Roshi: Don’t stare at one point on the floor. For instance tiny things; if you stare at it for long, you can make a visualization of light: blue light, green light, sometimes animal face, sometimes human face comes up, on the floor. It’s very natural. So don’t glare at one point.
So that’s why I told you, just cast your eyes down on the floor, looking a little broad area, in the same distance as your sitting height. That’s pretty good. Because when you see the visualization of animal face or human face from the floor [stains], that means indication of your eye nerve exhausting, completely exhaust. So you can see the light. Do you understand what I mean? If you exhaust physically and mentally, well, very naturally you can see something.
So in zazen it very clearly comes up, in many ways. Light, or sometimes voice coming in. [He laughs.] Sometimes you’re really sensitive, too sensitive – sensitive to the sound, sensitive to the quietness. That is already your nerves are exhausted. Don’t use your nerves too much. Just let go of your nerves, your external and internal organs. That is pretty hard, but through zazen, if you just follow this way of zazen, you can do it.
But sometimes you can close your eyes, for a while. Because open eyes is a way of living. If you open your eyes, this is a philosophy: how much you be involved in the human world. If you open your eyes wide, that’s too much, you’re involved too much in the world. [He laughs.] Politics, or whatever it is. So you cannot get out. On the other hand, if you really hate the human world and you try to withdraw, that is also trouble. That is closing eyes. If you withdraw, you can become alone, but still you have lots of problems because already you have had lots of preconceptions in your head. So if you become alone, you really enjoy your “visualizations.” Nobody interrupts you; that is a problem, though. Nobody tells you; nobody there. You can be just alone, and then you can play with your own [preconceptions]. That is a problem.
So that’s why open your eyes just slightly. That means contacting with object outside, external world. Just slightly. And then it gives you suggestions: “Hey, what are you thinking?” So you can come back to yourself. That’s why this is just slightly open.
4 - 5:48
Question: What is shikantaza?
Katagiri Roshi: Shikantaza. Shikan means… I don’t know how to translate… Shikan is in this case a noun and also and adverb. Shikan means wholeheartedly or wholeheartedness. Just like smoke going straight up in the sky without moving, because there is no wind. Just straight up. That is the state of your effort.
Questioner: It’s not like a certain type of meditation?
Katagiri Roshi: Well… [He laughs.] Well, if you say “that is shikantaza,” that is a type. What do you mean, “a certain type of…”
Questioner: I was just reading a book on Buddhism that said that the Sōtō sect practices shikantaza…
Katagiri Roshi: Shikantaza is a type of… yes.
Questioner: … and the Rinzai practices koans, and I just wasn’t sure what it meant.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, koan is another Zen practice. But shikantaza is, if you want to say [so], that is a type of meditation. But it is not a particular type of meditation separate from other meditation; it is because this shikantaza is exactly… I don’t know… essence of practice of zazen, meditation. Even if you don’t use anything, or even if you don’t have any idea of zazen, or whoever you are – clever person or poor person, stupid, whoever you are – if you do zazen like this, you can do it, exactly. Even though you don’t pass any koan, even if you don’t know koans. Even if you don’t know Buddhism. Even if you don’t know what life is. But why don’t you sit like this? This is exactly the way of realizing who you are, touching directly who are you. That is shikantaza.
Okay, any others?
4 - 8:14
Question: Roshi? From sitting, oftentimes I get real tired, and my knees get real sore. I find myself fixating on the discomfort. Is it best to move, or to try to stay with that and let it pass?
Katagiri Roshi: No, I don’t say yes, I don’t say no. [He laughs, and the audience laughs.]
If I say “yes,” very naturally your zazen is regulated by “Katagiri says ‘yes’.” So pretty easily you become lazy, because Katagiri says, “I can move it.” So you cannot practice patience. You know?
But if I say “don’t move,” you say, “Well…” [Laughter.] “I don’t like it.” [He laughs.] You hate me. Well, it’s okay to hate me, but you don’t want to do zazen, anyway.
So whatever I say, it’s not correct. Don’t you think so? [They laugh.]
So what I want to tell you is, “Do your best.” Do your best. Under all circumstances, do your best. That’s all you have to do.
Anyway, human life is very strange – funny, you know? [He chuckles.] We want to get certain rules and certain “frames”: about zazen, breathing… That’s interesting. But zazen… to the minimum you have to have certain information, rules, et cetera. But right in the middle of the rule, if you do zazen, many things come up! You don’t know how to take care of it. So very naturally you want to make a rule: how to deal with this one, or B, and C, and A. And then gradually you make rules… lots of rules. Katagiri says “do this, and when you deal with A, you can move it.” So if you see the A, very naturally you can move it. If you see the B: forget it. So, just forget it.
So there is no sense of subjectivity. Who is doing zazen? You do zazen. [It’s] not regulations doing zazen! [He laughs.] But if I make rules – always like this, giving rules to you – who is doing zazen? No sense of subjectivity.
That is really a trap. And human beings really like it! But if you fall into this, you really struggle and you suffer. But on the other hand, you like it! Just like ants – always they like very much honey. They climb the honey bottle, and fall into the honey. They cannot get out.
So that is human beings. Very strange. But on the other hand, it’s fun. [He laughs.]
Any other questions?