Baika: Plum Blossoms – Talk 3
December 4, 1988 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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This old plum tree is boundless. All at once its blossoms open and of itself the fruit is born.
It forms spring; it forms winter. It arouses wind and wild rain. It is the head of a patch-robed monk; it is the eyeball of an ancient buddha. It becomes grass and trees; it becomes pure fragrance. Its whirling, miraculous transformation has no limit. Furthermore, the treeness of the great earth, high sky, bright sun, and clear moon derives from the treeness of the old plum tree. They have always been entangled, vine with vine.
(From Moon in a Dewdrop, edited by Kazuaki Tanahashi.)
Now Dōgen Zenji comments on [Rujing’s] poem we read yesterday.
This old plum tree is boundless.
I think in “this old plum tree,” I think he uses the term “old” which means buddha-nature, or the state of existence prior to parents’ birth, or prior to germination of any thought or ideas. That is “old” means buddha-nature, we can say dharma-nature, whatever kind of term you use to express something pure and something true. That is “old”.
So “old plum tree”: plum tree is the usual plum tree, but “it’s old” means plum tree is plum tree but it’s not plum tree. That is that which the absolute [or] universality is actualized there. In other words, truth is manifested [in it], truth is actualized in it. The universe, cosmos, actualized in the plum tree. That’s why “old plum tree” is old plum tree, but plum tree is not usual plum tree, it is something more than usual plum tree, because it is the truth. It is the actualization of the truth or actualization of the whole universe.
So that is [what he wants to indicate]; that is the term “old plum tree”.
And then, “this old plum tree is boundless” – anyway, no end, no beginning. Beginningless and endless; it’s going like that. Not only the plum tree: pine trees, and birds, and insects, and your hair, your boots, and your… nose. So all things, everything exists like that, exactly. Boundlessly, endlessly and beginninglessly, everything is working and functioning like this. That is, he [says], “boundless”.
4:45
And then,
All at once its blooms open and of itself the fruit is born.
In other words, all at once, simultaneously, its flowers bloom, its blossoms open.
And, how can I say… blossoms open and forms of the fruit is ripened of its own accord, according to Bodhidharma’s statement. He says, “One flower blooms with five petals. The forming of a fruit is ripened of its own accord.”
The plum tree, pine tree, exists exactly like this, within the interconnection, interpenetration between the truth and the phenomenal world. At super-speed. Then, something, its own blossom opens, and fruit is ripened of its own accord. That means, tree becomes tree. Pine tree becomes pine tree, exactly. And plum tree becomes exactly plum tree.
Then, he mentions lots of things. So very naturally, he says the old plum tree appears in many ways. Sometimes sun, sometimes color, sometimes moon. Sometimes whirling, the miraculous transformations; sometimes certain tree-ness of the great earth, and high sky and bright sun and clear moon derive from the tree-ness of the old plum tree.
I think everything exists like this. If so, if you see the plum tree, the plum tree is exactly existent in the same way as other trees, other birds, other natures, other beings. So you can say old plum tree is sun, old plum tree is pine tree. Old plum tree is sometimes rain, you can say, because how does rain exist? Rain exists exactly in the same way as pine trees [and] plum trees exist. So, very naturally, you can say, you can say the pine tree is old plum tree. I am pine tree, because I exist exactly same as pine trees, and flowers and the skies and birds. Like this.
So, very naturally, you can say it forms spring, it forms winter, it arouses wind and wild rains, naturally.
I have to explain a little bit the philosophical background for this. Not “philosophical”… I think we should know Dōgen’s way of understanding [and] thinking.
I think yesterday I [talked] about time. When the time becomes, what would you say, very pure and very… consummate. Consummate? Very in its consummation; exactly time. [When time becomes consumate,] time doesn’t remain in its own form; time passes through the time to freedom, exactly. And then it becomes space.
The consummation of time or ultimate completion of time means time is time, exactly; [it is] when the time becomes completely time. That is called consummation of time, or ultimate state of time. At that time, we can say time exists.
For instance, Katagiri exists here. What Katagiri exists here means [is] the consummation of a single being, right now. At that time, well, how can I say… there is no comment on the Katagiri. [He laughs.] Just Katagiri.
Well, you don’t believe it, but exactly this is the real state of everything which exists in this world. You, and cushions, tables, and microphones… You can see the microphone as it is, [that] means the microphone becomes microphone as it is; [that] means complete, consummation of microphone. At that time we can say [the microphone is there]. That is called “all sentient beings exist.” You can see, you can contact with your naked eyes, you know, the table, or whatever it is.
So I think if you see the table, we take the table through consciousness only, that’s it. But actually the table exists how? The table exists right in the midst of the consummation of the table as it is. Where there is no comment, no criticism, no complaint. That is called completion; completion of table’s existence. At that time, the table can have power and energy and momentum to be there.
That’s why I say, when you research the time through and through, deeply, into the consummation of time, you can see the perfect quality of time, completion of time – filled of time completely, nothing else. And then, it’s completely go beyond. That is called “time turns into space.”
For instance, when you do something with total […] concentration, at that time you completely transform. You don’t see you; you simply cannot perceive what you are doing. You are there, but you become consummation of you; that’s it. And then you don’t see you.
For instance, a terminal station. A terminal station is the end you have to reach. That is [that the] terminal station is the end, but it’s not the end, it’s the beginning of the travel in the new way. So when you do something completely, so-called end, so-called terminal station, at that time, well, you can go any place. So the terminal station is not a terminal station, that is the beginning of a trip.
So that is a point of how everything exists. Table exists like that, Katagiri exists like that, and mountain exists like that. Mountain is mountain; exactly mountain is mountain. Katagiri is Katagiri. Chair is chair. Okay? At that time, one is one. One is never two, one is one. “One is one” means one becomes consummation of one; at that time it is called “one is one”.
Mountain is mountain: that is the scenery of the mountain we can see through the naked eye. Mountain is mountain; even though I say “mountain is not mountain,” you don’t believe it, you know? So through that naked eye, we can see the mountain is mountain, exactly. What does it mean? One is one; one is never two, never three. One is one, exactly. How? That is mountain exists right in the midst of time, which has lots of momentum of energy. At that time, mountain becomes exactly mountain. That is called “existence of mountain”.
So Dōgen Zenji says in the Sansuikyo, the “Scripture of Mountains and Waters,” in the last paragraph, he says,
An ancient Buddha said, mountains are mountains, waters are waters. This saying doesn’t say that mountains are mountains, it says mountains are mountains.
This is not Dōgen’s understanding, this is Kongō-kyō, the Diamond Sutra: Bodhisattvas are Bodhisattvas, but Bodhisattvas are not Bodhisattvas, that’s why we say they are Bodhisattvas.
This is very interesting; this is a characteristic of Buddhist understanding.
There is an interesting koan, Blue Cliff Record case 45. You know this koan:
A monk asked Chao Chou, “The myriad things return to one. Where does the one return to?”
Chou said, “When I was in Ch’ing Chou I made a cloth shirt. It weighed seven pounds.”
( From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary)
A monk asked, “Myriad things return to one…” So everything returns to one. When you see the mountain, mountains are mountains, so mountains immediately exist, returning to the one. That’s why existence of mountain is complete, because mountain exist in the realm of oneness, the same and one ground. That’s why when you see the mountains with your naked eye, we can understand mountains are mountains, that’s it.
So everything, myriad things return to one, means already they exist in the realm of oneness, the same and oneness. In other words, every single existence exists in the complete state of being – beyond comment, beyond criticisms, exactly.
And then if so, where does one return to? If so, where is the place which one returns to?
So Chao Chou says, I made a shirt in a certain place and it weighed seven pounds. That means it’s already the phenomenal world; one returns to the phenomenal world.
This is a very important point: oneness [or] truth and the phenomenal world working together and living together harmoniously, peacefully – this is a characteristic of Buddhist teaching. No separation.
So that’s why it’s easy to misunderstand it, because if you see the mountain, we can understand the mountain is mountain, that’s it. You know? So, no problem. But I think we have to understand the mountains a little bit deeply, because mountains’ existence is exactly interconnected, interpenetrated with the truth and the whole universe. That’s why you cannot say just the idea of the mountains. So through the mountain you have to see whole world, you have to see the broad scale of the universe. That’s why mountain is mountain, but mountain is the place where the truth or cosmos or universe is actualized, in motion, in actions, day to day. That’s why mountain is not mountain.
Everything exists like that, so if you see that mountains with the actualization of the universe, and cosmic, and completion of time and space, at that time mountains are exactly same as waters and the skies and the suns, because everything exists like that. So very naturally the broad phenomenal world is open, in front of you.
Just like […] your head is kind of a TV set. You know, if you push a button, immediately many beings come up. [He laughs.] But your head is your head. One is one. And then if you push the button, immediately all things appears in one screen. At that time Europe comes up, and the whole world becomes Europe. So you are not there, you are Europe. Next moment, you switch the channel, and then immediately another world comes up. But all things, myriad, myriad things, trees, birds, and suns, pebbles and waters… Every time when you switch the channel, each single world appears occupying the whole world. But all things come back to where? Just a screen, a TV set. Just one.
So all things can return to one; simultaneously one creates many things. Just like in your head, if you sit down. When you become one, Katagiri becomes Katagiri exactly. At that time the Katagiri never sits in zazen with Katagiri; immediately many things come up. But on the other hand, Katagiri is always connected with something; Katagiri never is Katagiri as one, because always two. But when you become Katagiri, when you become you as you are, as one, simultaneously your brain is a switch, and you create many things. Then energy is coming up, and feelings, and past lives, and future lives, and the skies, and many things what you have never thought, many things coming up. So when you become one – that’s why sitting is exactly you become you, you become the consummation in the consummation of you as you are. And then, that’s why you feel something. simultaneously you can see many worlds. That is with your head, you can see many worlds. But if you continue to practice like this, then many worlds are not deluded, separate from your zazen. Many worlds come into you.
So you are sitting exactly; that sitting is exactly the same as trees, birds. Birds are sitting exactly; birds’ existence are exactly same as the sitting postures, the spirit of zazen. So very naturally you can understand this one.
That’s why Dōgen Zenji says,
An ancient Buddha says mountains are mountains…
But it doesn’t mean the mountains are mountains, […] it says the mountains are mountains.
Because of one complete one, oneness creates many beings. At that time, one is never one; one is myriad.
Because when you become one exactly – Katagiri becomes one – I think Katagiri passes through the time to the freedom. So very naturally Katagiri becomes space. Katagiri spreads into every inch of space; at that time you can see Katagiri blooms in every different aspect of the universe: in the trees’ world, birds’ world. That’s why I can feel the bird’s feelings, the emotions; you can talk with the bird.
That is what Dōgen says here. So,
Therefore you should investigate the mountains. If you investigate the mountains, that is meditation in the mountains.
(Katagiri Roshi’s translation of “Mountains and Waters Sutra”.)
“Meditation” means perfect concentration, perfect concentration here. It’s called kufū (功夫) in Japanese; it’s not zazen, but he uses meditation. Ku means one of the carpenter’s tools to measure the level.
People: A plane, or a level.
Katagiri Roshi: So that is the meaning of the ku of kufū. So always you have to keep the balance. And fū of kufū means “person”. This “person” is a very firm, very stable person. So the person who keeps balance perfectly; that is “meditation”, here it says “meditation”; kufū in Japanese.
(Transcriber’s Note: In Chinese 功夫 is pronounced kung fu and today is associated with the martial arts, but the term refers to “any study, learning, or practice that requires patience, energy, and time to complete.” (source).
So you should study the kufū in the mountains; that means how mountains exist. Mountains themselves always keep their own balance of their life. That means completion, consummation of the mountains.
So he says “if you investigate the mountains, that is meditation in the mountains.” That’s why this is a very deep, interested state of the being.
Such mountains and waters of themselves makes sages and saints.
That’s why some people attain enlightenment through the mountains, through the waters.
So mountains sometimes make a sage… sometimes mountains create craziness. Okay?
31:18
… One more thing. In the Genjōkōan, I think you remember:
The kindling becomes ashes and cannot become kindling again. However, you should not see the ash as after and the kindling as before.
This is a little bit difficult [to understand], but this is an important point.
“Kindling becomes ashes,” that is very understandable. So from this point, in the time process there is a relation between the kindling and the ashes. But he says, it cannot become kindling again; it’s impossible that the ashes becomes kindling. If we could say that the ashes could become kindling, probably there could be a relation between the ashes and the kindling in the time process. In other words, some connection there – time connections. Is that clear? Time connection. If you say kindling becomes ashes, there is a connection there. Okay? There is a time connection there. But ashes never become kindling, but if ashes became kindling, well, maybe there could be some time connection between the ashes and kindling. But actually it’s impossible. If so – no time connections between the ashes and kindling. But in the beginning we say the kindling becomes ashes; at that time we say there is a time relation between the two. But this is our imagination; all imagination. Actually no connection. Kindling is kindling, that’s it. Because kindling exists exactly in the state of consummation. It’s consummation, that’s it. Kindling is kindling, because kindling is exactly passing through the kindling to freedom, so-called “time passes through the time to freedom,” [in] which it turns into space.
So actually we say “kindling becomes ashes,” but then we have a relation. Yesterday becomes today, then we have a preconception of time relation between the yesterday and today. But actually, today never [becomes] yesterday; from this point between yesterday and today [there is] no connection. Today is today; yesterday is yesterday. And then it’s connected. “It’s connected” means not “connected”… yesterday “spreads”, yesterday exists as it is, occupying the whole world. That is exactly the same as today, and tomorrow. So whatever you say, yesterday and today and tomorrow are the same thing.
That’s why it says here kindling becomes ashes and cannot become kindling again, however we shouldn’t see the ash as after and the kindling as before. If there could be some connection, time connection, we could say ashes as after and kindling as before; we could say so. But actually [there is] no connection.
The same applies to life and death. The same applies to winter and spring. We always have a preconception of time relation between the spring and winter, that’s why we don’t like winter. Always we are thinking of spring, because we have a preconception of the connection between [them], time connection. But actually strictly speaking, in human life, in the life of spring or winter, there is no connection: winter is exactly winter, that’s it. And then the spring and the autumn and summer are exactly behind the winter. “Behind the winter” is not a good expression, but anyway, “concealed”… other seasons are concealed in winter. And then then the winter is exactly winter, which means winter occupies the whole world.
So from this point, how do we take care of winter? Receive it and take care of winter as it is, without comparing the spring and summer and autumn. That is a way of living, and this is a teaching how to live in this world, in the winter, in summer, in spring.
That’s why Tozan was asked by a monk, “How can I escape from heat and cold?” And Tozan said, “Go to the place where there is no heat, no cold.” [The monk asked,] “How can I go [there]?” Or, “Where is it?” And then Tozan said, “You should kill the heat.” Heat should be killed by heat. In other words, “You should kill the heat, you should kill the cold” means heat is heat; no connection between you and heat. We are always connected. But Katagiri is Katagiri, so when I see the Katagiri in winter, Katagiri feels how? Katagiri is Katagiri. But if Katagiri becomes Katagiri, immediately many [words] come up, that is cold, and trees, and snow, many things come up. And then I say, “Cold.” But all things simultaneously come back to one, so-called Katagiri, so very naturally, “Cold? That’s fine.” You should kill the cold; that means Katagiri must be Katagiri – right now, right here. That’s what the teaching says, always.
So that’s why it says here that we “shouldn’t see the ash as after and the kindling as before…”
Know that kindling abides in the normative state of kindling…
“Normative state of kindling” means the dharma state of kindling. That means the kindling is exactly kindling; kindling is in the consummation of kindling. Perfect. At that time kindling becomes one and the same. And then kindling can pass through the kindling to freedom.
It means kindling creates many beings. At that time kindling becomes spring, autumn, birds, life and death.
This being the case, not saying that life becomes death is an established custom in Buddhism.
So we always say life is moving toward death, but this is not right; it’s not a Buddhistic way of understanding.
So – what is the point? [Some laughter, and he chuckles.]
I mentioned a little bit of the background. First, mountains are mountains. That is a reality, which you can see, you can experience the mountains with your naked eye. That means, one is one; the same is same. Then, next process is mountains are not mountains. Because when the mountain becomes complete, it doesn’t stay mountains as it is, it creates many beings, many [worlds]. When you become one exactly, you create many beings. Because you’re scared [to be] alone.
This is natural. So one creates many, many creates one. That is simultaneously working.
That working itself, in motion, in energy, that is called Buddha’s world. Buddha’s world is not a concept; Buddha’s world is functioning and working, or kind of momentum of energy, in motion, constantly. Within that momentum of energy, in motion constantly, there [is the] existence of many beings.
So that’s why the pine tree is pine tree, but pine tree is something more than pine tree. That’s why we have to go through one more stage: mountains are not mountains. Because mountain tells you a lot of things: the trees’ lives, the sky’s lives, and the birds’ feelings, and the moss’s feeling. And the tiny flowers blooming in the mountains. The mountains tell you lots of things. If you become exactly mountain, you can feel the mountain’s heart. And then through the mountain’s heart, you can learn the many beings.
If you learn the heart of the mountain, then you become one with the mountain.
[Tape change.]
… So life of birds, life of rock, life of tree, life of sky, life of snow. Lots of [words] come up.
And then all things exist how? Mountains are mountains. That’s it. Because you are in the mountains. So at that time, mountains are beautiful mountains. You can see the mountain through the naked eye, and simultaneously you can see the panoramic picture of the cosmos. By which the mountain’s life is supported, and actualized, exactly.
And then, this is our Buddhist teaching. And then if you read this one, probably you can taste it, a little bit. You know? “Old plum tree.” What is old plum tree? Old plum tree is plum tree is plum tree. But not; that means old plum tree. The plum tree is a place where the cosmos, the universe, and the momentum energies is actualized, working constantly. And then the plum tree creates many beings. Which means plum tree learns lots of life, life of the many beings. Insects, and spring, autumn, many beings.
And then, all those all beings we can learn comes to the old plum tree. That’s it. Because we are seeing the old plum tree.
So from this point, from now on, when you see anything, first you can see that something very narrowly, in narrow way, but simultaneously you shouldn’t stay with it, you should open it. You should open it and then see the many things around. But don’t rush into trying to see many things immediately or quickly; take time. That means see the flowers, see the [problems], see the pine trees, whatever it is, anyway, constantly face it. Face. Trees are trees; problem is problem. Receive it and take care of it. But don’t rush into [it] quickly. And then very naturally you can open it. You can open. And then many worlds can bloom in your life.
And then after that, smoothly, many beings can be accepted by you, peacefully, harmoniously. And then you can learn a lot from this. That is Buddha’s teaching.
That’s why this paragraph [says], let me read it once again:
This old plum tree is boundless. All at once its blossoms open and of itself the fruit is born.
It forms spring; it forms winter. It arouses wind and wild rain. It is the head of a patch-robed monk; …
That means the bald head I mentioned yesterday, too. “Bald head” means everything exists perfectly. Katagiri is Katagiri; one is one, exactly. That means Katagiri is right in the midst of consummation of Katagiri’s existence; that’s it. At that time there is nothing to grasp, so-called bald head. That’s bald head.
Katagiri? I love Katagiri, yes. But when I die, where should I go? Is there anyone [to] help me? Is there anyone [to] stop my dying? No way. So all I have to do is, just go.
So nothing to hold, nothing to criticize; something is something is going, momentum of energy. That is time, very pure time. Pure time is kind of momentum of energy and energies. That is going; that is “bald head,” we say – “bald head of patch-robed monk.” That’s why we shave the head. So this […] shaved head [is a symbol meaning] the consummation of existence.
[…] Dōgen says if you don’t shave the head, you are an animal. [He laughs.] This is a little bit exaggerated, okay? It means Dōgen discriminates between you and the animals. Immediately everyone [is] barking at Dōgen: [he laughs,] “Dōgen’s teaching is not right; he is discriminating [against] animals.” But it doesn’t mean that. Don’t worry. Anyway, don’t worry. [Laughter.]
And also if you have a long nails and long hair, you are an animal, he says. But that is too much. [He laughs.] Anyway, there is another reason why we have to shave the head or clean the nails, et cetera: [because of] my explanation, okay?
… it becomes pure fragrance. Its whirling, miraculous transformation has no limit. Furthermore, the treeness of the great earth, high sky, bright sun, and clear moon derives from the treeness of the old plum tree.
“Derives from the tree-ness of the old plum tree” means everything is the same: if I see plum tree, everything becomes plum tree, because plum tree is exactly living in the same way as other beings. So that’s why Katagiri is you. I am you, you are I. So no difference between I and you. If you see really deep, that is the true state of existence as Katagiri, in the consummation of Katagiri’s existence. Then next, many worlds are coming up.
When I become I as it is, so-called “one is one,” then one creates two, three, four, five… myriad, myriad plum trees bloom. That is you and questions coming up.
And then all beings – where are they? All beings are exactly in the realm of I; that’s it. So very naturally I can accept it and deal with it; with all sentient beings.
So that’s why he says “the high skies, bright sun and clear moon derive from treeness of the old plum tree.”
53:42
They have always been entangled, vine with vine.
Entangled [does not mean] confusion; many truths and phenomena are interconnected. That is exactly vine with vine, vine entangled with vine. Everything exists like that.
Do you have some questions? It’s a little bit complicated, so… can you a little bit feel the point? [He and a few people laugh.]
54:20
Question: Well, it seems to me that this time is, well, for example, when you’re talking about the kindling becomes ashes. The kindling, doesn’t it have its own consummation?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes…
Same person: Apart from the ashes?
Katagiri Roshi: Apart from ashes? Not apart. Yes, if you don’t think [about] the ashes, kindling exists exactly in its consummation.
Same person: Right. So when you say that time passes through time completely and then becomes space, it sounds like you’re talking about a time process, but isn’t every moment of time its own consummation?
Katagiri Roshi: Every moment?
Same person: Yeah.
Katagiri Roshi: Excuse me, [what was the] last sentence?
Same person: Every moment of time – doesn’t every moment have its own consummation?
Katagiri Roshi: Its consummation… yes.
Same person: So, what’s the time that exists before the consummation of time?
Katagiri Roshi: No time. No time.
Same person: So it’s not really a process?
Katagiri Roshi: It’s not a process. Time is exactly consummation of time; at that time no before, no after.
Same person: Okay.
Katagiri Roshi: So no time. That’s why it becomes space.
Same person: But when you talk about, for example, like a train going to its destination, it doesn’t seem like that’s exactly the same, because the destination…
Katagiri Roshi: Uh-huh. Maybe so.
Same person: Okay.
Katagiri Roshi: Well what I want to say is that when you become one, when you become you as you are exactly, it becomes an end, but the perfection of you, perfection of becoming you.
Same person: Okay. This moment?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah. That is simultaneously not an end, it’s a beginning.
Same person: Okay.
Katagiri Roshi: Yesterday I mentioned yin and yang. Winter solstice… [there is some back and forth over how to pronounce “solstice”, and Katagiri Roshi laughs.] So winter solstice is exactly the consummation of yin. So it’s an end; but simultaneously it’s a beginning. So it’s beginning is a new life, so that’s why it becomes yang.
57:20
Question: I have another question.
Katagiri Roshi: Hai.
Same person: When you’re talking about kufu, is kufu sort of, could you say that it’s your practice? Like, is there… well I don’t exactly understand what it is, I guess. Could you say that it’s an effort or something? Of keeping that balance?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, it’s an effort, but […] I think the effort becomes, how can I say, very pure. If you deal with the effort as it really is, with the full concentration.
Same person: Oh. You mean not like doing something, but like being part of it.
Katagiri Roshi: Right. When you do zazen exactly when you use effort in the pure sense, with full concentration, at that time effort is a kind of momentum [of] energy which keeps your life balance. That means the effort is kind of a stream of dharma; sometimes a teacher says “effort is tuning into the radio station of the universe” – dharma, universe. At that time that is called keeping balance.
So keeping balance is not with our effort, with our head, or with our usual sense of effort, we try to keep the balance. That is not perfect balance. The question is, in order to keep the balance, I think we have to deal with something else as an object, so-called zazen. And then if I see the zazen, and then I should take care of this with the effort. So very naturally there is an object and subject. So to keep the balance doesn’t mean we try to keep the balance between the zazen and I, subject and object. Or psychologically, it doesn’t mean to try to keep the balance with the delusion and buddhas, et cetera. When you see zazen, exactly you have to take best care of zazen with wholeheartedness, and that time you are concealed [within] zazen. And then your life becomes balanced.
Same person: What did you say, “concealed”?
Katagiri Roshi: Concealed. Behind. Concealed with. You are concealed in zazen.
Same person: Oh, I see. That’s like becoming one with it.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah. And *then** you keep the balance.
So “keep the balance” means one is one. That’s it.
So for instance, I have to always talk about the Buddha’s teaching and how can I say it… But whatever happens from the beginning to end, the question is, Katagiri becomes Katagiri, that’s it. [He laughs.] Don’t you think? So that is keeping balance.
Same person: So have you ever heard the term koan kufu?
Katagiri Roshi: No. I’ve never.
Same person: Do you have a sense of what that might [be]? Would that be like whatever it is you’re working on in your life, you become one with it?
Katagiri Roshi: Well a koan I think is not used for the kind of getting some good ideas from the koan “puzzle,” you know? The koan becomes a puzzle. I don’t think we should use a koan like that, because the koan itself is nothing but the manifestation of the truth which ancestors and buddhas experienced. So you have to know what the truth is, how truth communicates with the human world, how it helps us, through the koan. We have to think of it. So Dōgen tries to talk about this.
So very naturally, I think you can understand the koan very deeply.
So I think that is Rinzai; in the history of the Rinzai, I think we have a preconception that we should use a koan in order to reach a certain spiritual stage. That is a misunderstanding, misused koan.
1:03:33
Question: When you talked about time, are you saying then that our concept of time is just delusion?
Katagiri Roshi: Concept of time… ?
Same person: Is delusion?
Katagiri Roshi: No, not a delusion… That is exactly the same as the form of the trees you can see. Time is the idea of time you can think with your head. It’s very difficult to “get it,” you use always [the word] “time,” but it’s very vague. If you use the [word] time, we immediately think [of a]clock, you know, this watch; that is time. But still time itself is very abstract, you know. So thinking, imagining the time. But time and space are important for us in order to understand the world and human beings.
Same person: Are they like conventions to enable us to live in a phenomenal world?
Katagiri Roshi: “Conventions”?
Same person: Conventions… that’s concepts, procedures.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes.
Same person: Is that the function of time and space?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. Time is important, the idea of time is important, but I think you have to use it carefully. [He laughs.]
It’s not a delusion. If the idea of time becomes a delusion, I think idea of tree is also a delusion. And also the subject, you […] are also a delusion. So everything is a delusion.
Same person: What *is** a delusion?
Katagiri Roshi: Delusion is not exactly keeping the balance. [He laughs.] You cannot keep the balance with the rhythm of the universe.
Same person: Hmm.
Katagiri Roshi: You start to drift. Do you understand?
Same person: Uh-huh.
Katagiri Roshi: More or less we are drifting… [Laughter.]
Someone: More or less!
Katagiri Roshi: … but we try to keep the balance anyway. Try to keep the boat on the right course, you know? This is our practice.
Okay. I think I [talked about] many things today, but [they] may be difficult to understand. But even one thing, think of it, okay? It’s very important in order to understand Buddhist teaching.