Blue Cliff Record Case 87: Medicine and Disease Subdue Each Other – Talk 2
October 16, 1988 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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This transcript is in draft stage.
0:00
Page 560, in the commentary, there is an interesting story here.
One day Manjusri ordered Sudhana to pick medicinal herbs. He said, “If there is something that is not medicine, bring it to me.” Sudhana searched all over, but there was nothing that was not medicine. So he went back and told Manjusri, “There is nothing that is not medicine.” Manjusri said, “Gather something that is medicine.” Sudhana then picked up a blade of grass and handed it to Manjusri. Manjusri held it up and showed it to the assembly, saying, “This medicine can kill people and it can also bring people to life.”
( From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary.)
This is a story which occurs in the Avatamsaka Sutra. Sudhana is a person who seeks for the truth, visiting fifty-three teachers. The last teacher he met was Manjusri; he discussed medicine with him and he really attained enlightenment. So this is an interesting discussion between Sudhana and Manjusri.
First of all, Manjusri asked Sudhana, “If there is something that is not medicine, bring it to me.” And then [Sudhana] tried to find something which is not medicine, but finally he couldn’t find it, so he came back and told Manjusri, “There is nothing that is not medicine.” In other words, all is medicine.
Manjusri said, “Next, gather something that is medicine.” Then Sudhana picked up a blade of grass and handed it to Manjusri. Manjusri held it up and showed it to the assembly, saying, “This medicine can kill people and it can also bring people to life.”
If we use [the word] “medicine,” very naturally this is a term which emerges from the dualistic world. So very naturally, there is sickness opposed […] to medicine. So sickness and medicine, and then sickness is not good, medicine is good.
If you see your life and are asking yourself why you practice zazen, very naturally you try to explain the reason why you practice. So consciously or unconsciously practice or delusion or enlightenment are used in terms of the dualistic sense. But Buddha Shakyamuni said, “We are Buddha”; that means all are Buddha. The [statement] “I and all beings in the whole world attain simultaneously enlightenment” means there is no gap between buddhas and ordinary people.
But in the world where we live, there is always dualism, so the dualistic sense is accepted very naturally as normal [for] human beings – separating “we are ordinary people” and “Buddha is wise person.” So very naturally if you compare with him, we are not Buddha, we are ordinary people. Even though Buddha says we are Buddha, we don’t believe we are Buddha, we don’t see Buddha in our everyday life. The Buddha is hidden somewhere – that’s [what] we understand. That’s why very naturally by the practice we try to dig [up] the life and bring the Buddha [to the] front.
So that is a very natural sense of the practice, [of] why you practice zazen. But this is dualistic. So if you practice like this, it’s pretty hard to continue practice in peace; repose and bliss.
“Repose and bliss” means relaxation and assurance of your existence day-to-day. Not trying to get something in front, not [trying] to get something from the back, but day-to-day, [this] is important because day-to-day is [the] place where you live. You are taking a breath: this is day-to-day. Day-to-day is connected with the past and the future; it is. But our way of understanding human life and taking care of our life is always going back to the past or going forward [to the future], and then in terms of the past or future we try to deal with present life. That is pretty difficult, because there is no peace.
Particularly when you are well-known in the world – well, not necessarily “well known,” but some people respect you very much – finally you fall into overbearing pride, unconsciously. And then finally you are “choked to death” – in other words, you cannot move an inch there, which makes you suffer so much. So it seems that if you get the people who really respect you very much, at that time you can see the advancement of your life – because you have worked very hard for many, many years, that’s why people respect you. But if you fall into overbearing pride, there is no peace, because it’s suffering.
So the important point is: is there real repose and bliss. In other words, [is there] relaxation and assurance of your existence, right in the midst of process of advancement. That is most important.
We always try to get advancement, because we are in a [great] hurry to get rewards. Do you understand? So very naturally you forget the peace, day to day. So very naturally in the bottom of your life it is very uneasy – that’s why people more and more [want] to get the peace in front, instead of getting the peace right here. So very naturally you become [like] a dog trying to find food. This is not the real way to be peaceful and harmonious, and also give an opportunity to people [to] feel relief from your life.
So I think that’s why the more your life is popular, the more you must be careful. Because pretty easily we [develop] overbearing pride. Overbearing pride is a kind of momentum which takes you to get something in front. So you naturally get energies; it seems to be very nice because you can get lots of energy day-to-day to get something in front. So you always run. But in the process of running, there is no peace. No peace, [and] simultaneously you can fall into overbearing pride. Samsara is always going like this.
So I think the important point is to be peaceful, harmonious, day-to-day.
If you practice zazen believing you are a sick person, at that time it is very difficult to realize the true meaning of practice. Ancestors and buddhas [always talk] about this. So in this koan it talks about medicine and sickness, [but] it is not the usual medicine and sickness. It is talking about our practice, our daily life. Because we always get something [which] we can compare with something. Very naturally Katagiri is here, and then simultaneously you are there – and then, which is good? Or which is bad? If I see that I am not good, I try to be good. That is always.
This “try to be good” is nice, because you can get the energies, and you can see the development, you can see advancement, very much. But – no peace. That’s why it’s very difficult to see yourself peacefully and harmoniously day to day. No [security], no assurance, no relaxation there. Buddhism [always talks] about that point.
That’s why the most important point is that we should consider again and again the true meaning of the Shakyamuni Buddha’s statement, “I and all living beings in the world attain enlightenment simultaneously.” What does it mean? This is very important. This is a basic practice for us. It becomes a big koan.
And then, if it is manifested, it becomes zazen. [The] form of zazen, and contents of zazen. So zazen becomes a big koan for us, to think what it means.
14:47
So, one day Manjusri asked Sudhana to find something which is not medicine. Finally, [Sudhana] couldn’t find anything which is not medicine. It means, all are medicines. “All are medicines” means the table becomes medicine, and the tape recorder is medicine for us.
But we don’t believe it, because if you use the term “medicine,” immediately we think of some medical stuff, in terms of our preconceptions. “Medicine” is vast – lots of meanings there. You know the original nature of penicillin comes from, what do you say, poisonous mold? A person found no bacteria around this mold; that’s why human beings use that mold. Now [there is] modern chemical [stuff], using a chemical, but originally we found a mold, how [it affects] human life. So that is poisonous, but it’s useful for us. But if you use it blindly, it easily kills human life. So you cannot use it blindly. That’s why a blade of grass kills you, or it brightens your life, or it fills your life.
So anyway, all are medicines.
My teacher was a very sensitive person, and every fall he had lots of memorial services for his followers’ families. So he tried to take care of his body before that. He was always sick, [with] colds, et cetera, that’s why he prepared very carefully for his health before that. But when the performance of the memorial service came, he was always sick. So what is a memorial service? Memorial service is, for him, sickness.
If you see all things in terms of sickness, all become sickness. Not only the poisons; everything you can see, hear and touch, with your whole body and mind, becomes sick.
Or sometimes, it becomes medicine. “All in the universe becomes medicine”… Let’s [look at] this one.
I think a memorial service is completely beyond medicine or sickness. But when my teacher saw these memorial services, they became sickness for him. And then right after finishing all the memorial services, he recovered, even though he didn’t take a medicine. He told [me and] Tomoe, “It’s funny! It’s strange; very strange.” [He laughs.] You see, it is very strange.
So what is consciousness? Is consciousness always good? Yes, good. But consciousness is not always good. Is consciousness always bad? No. It’s good, because without consciousness you cannot exist in this world. So what is consciousness? The real nature of consciousness is completely beyond the idea of good and bad. Consciousness is completely beyond the idea of sickness or medicine.
Or a memorial service. The real nature of a memorial service is complete beyond sickness and medicine. So the same applies to the tape recorder, and the tables, and glasses, and Katagiris, and all of you, exactly this. This is your ultimate nature.
20:40
So ultimate nature is complete transparent. Dōgen Zenji [says this] very simple in Zenki, “The Whole Works.” It’s very beautiful [words].
The great path of buddhas in its consummation…
“In its consummation” means in its ultimate nature.
The great path of the buddhas in its consummation is passage to freedom, is actualization.
That means there are two meanings [of] “the great path of the buddhas”. If you see it in terms of ultimate nature of being, at that time there are two meanings there. One is “passage to freedom” – that means emancipation. Always something goes beyond: goes beyond the framework of the table, or tape recorder, or Katagiris, or floors and lights, everything. Completely beyond.
And [second,] this is also “actualization” – we call [that] genjō. Genjō means complete actualization, complete manifestation. Gen means “manifestation”, jō means “completion”, or “achievement”… well, “completion” is better. So, “complete actualization”.
So showing your form called gassho is something actualized. But this actualization, something actualized by you, is not something you can see with your six senses – because it is a perfect actualization, beyond good or bad, right or wrong. Why? Because its nature is based on emancipation, the functioning of emancipation – freedom. The functioning of the passage to freedom.
That’s why next Dōgen Zenji [says],
That passage to freedom in one sense is that life passes through life to freedom.
If you see life, immediately we can see life in terms of dualism. At that time, [there are] life and death. The same applies to death. This is natural; but the real picture of life is not something like this. That’s why we have to see the real picture of life! Otherwise, it’s very difficult to build up peaceful life, day to day. That’s why ancestors and buddhas are always talking about this. Even though it is difficult for us, we have to think [about it], consider [it] deeply.
And also he explained,
When that actualization is taking place, it is without exception the complete actualization of life.
So the life you can see is not life opposed to death. Or [life that] you handle by your feeling – good or bad, right or wrong, dislike or like. The life you can see is complete actualization. This is the form of life, feeling of life you can see, you can hear.
So what is life? Life is something more than you can think.
And also he said,
It is the complete actualization of death.
That means when that actualization is taking place, it is complete actualization of death. So death is what? Death is something more than you can think, opposed to life. If you deal with death opposed to life, it scares you. But death is what? Death is complete actualization beyond like or dislike, or good or bad, right or wrong, hatred or not-hatred. Completely beyond, because it is based on the functioning of freedom – passage to freedom.
So life passes through life to freedom, and death passes through death to freedom. Table passes through the table to freedom! This is perfect, complete actualization. This is a form. That’s why form is important.
For instance, Ryokan Zen Master in Japan, who is pretty well known by Zen students. He looked like a shabby monk, not a usual monk. He didn’t have a temple; he stayed in a very tiny hut, and he lived by begging. [It is an] interesting story around him. And right before he was going to die, he was asked by his disciples: “What do you think about life?” And he said: “A maple leaf is falling, showing its front and back.”
This is life, for him. You can understand it, you know? What is life? Life is just like a maple leaf is falling. “Falling” means your life is marching toward death. [He chuckles.] Marching to the graveyard. And on the way to the grave, what happens? Showing your back, showing your front – that’s it. Showing crying, showing pleasure – showing suffering, always. This is life.
Somebody asked me to write a calligraphy, so I added one more thing: death. Okay? And about death I said, “When [fall of the maple leaf] is taking place, it is no failure [to] fall.” Do you understand? It is no failure in [falling]. In other words, right in the midst of falling, there is no failure. Do you understand?
“No failure” means completely beyond success and failure: just going. [He laughs.] No way. This is life; this is death. Because death is completely beyond.
And also, “completely beyond” is not abstract; it is completely something actualized, which is complete and perfect. That’s why the scenery of Fall is beautiful. It’s very beautiful. Sometimes it makes me pensive or sad, and feeling human impermanence. But as a whole, autumn is autumn. Through the fall of a single leaf, you can realize the whole world becomes autumn. So that’s why the fall of a leaf is something more than the fall of a leaf – it’s the total picture of autumn.
Is the total picture of autumn something abstract for us? No. The single maple leaf shows it exactly.
That is our life. [This is] Katagiri’s life right now – next moment, I don’t know if my life is going on or not. Right now, all I can do is just sit down and talk about Buddha’s teaching, anyway. That’s it. Beyond good or bad, right or wrong, or like or dislike.
That is what Dōgen Zenji says. It is a very beautiful first and second paragraph, talking about exactly the total picture of the human world.
31:53
The same applies to this story. Very naturally Sudhana couldn’t find anything which is not medicine, because everything is something going beyond its own “frame”.
So if I attach to myself, it is Katagiri in terms of dualism. But it’s not Katagiri – because my heart is beating beyond my effort. So Katagiri is what? Katagiri is completely based on the functioning of emancipation. No frame; [it is] beyond the framework of Katagiri I can build up. And also, this form is complete actualization.
That is what Sudhana said to Manjusri simply: there is nothing which is not medicine.
And then next, Manjusri asked Sudhana to gather something that is medicine.
Sudhana then picked up a blade of grass and handed it to Manjusri. Manjusri held it up and showed it to the assembly, saying, “This medicine can kill people and it can also bring people to life.”
Then, form is complete actualization. Not only the form of something you like: completely beyond like or dislike, [the] form of everything is nothing but complete actualization.
If so, a piece of paper, glasses, finger nails, hair, clothes, all things [work]. What’s the difference between the toilet paper and your tissue paper? What’s the difference between a piece of toilet paper and a piece of paper you use as a note? No difference.
So from this point, if you think that everything has a certain energy to pass through it to freedom – then we become careless. Because this table has its own energies or powers to pass through this table to freedom. If so, what can I do for you? [He taps the table.] You know? That’s your business; I don’t care! So you think whatever kind of way to deal with this table, it doesn’t matter. But that is your intellectual understanding. Because this form, this table is not different from your body. So if you use this table carelessly, it is exactly the same as taking care of your body carelessly. And then you hurt this table.
So very naturally, by your action, by your behavior, by your manner, this table can be killed – or this table can be alive. For you.
In the Buddha’s teaching, the first precept is not to kill. At that time, to obey the “not kill” means to “maintain the wisdom life of the Buddha.” “Wisdom life of Buddha” means the table’s wisdom life: the table has the wisdom life of Buddha. Which means […] the table’s life has a certain energy and power to pass through its life to freedom, constantly, beyond circumstances.
If so, this form is very important for us. That’s why even a piece of toilet paper, and tables, glasses, and your bodies, your hair, clothes, all things must be taken care of with your kindness, [your] considerate and charitable heart. That is important practice for us.
That’s why Manjusri said, “This medicine can kill people and it can also bring people to life.” That’s why our human action is important.
We always say, “Trust in you and others.” At first, we can’t do it, you know? [He chuckles.] Because many kinds of people are there. But in the Sangha, basically you have to trust. This is important. If you don’t trust, you can kill others, you can hurt others. And that is simultaneously coming back to you; so you can kill yourself.
In the Sangha, I think you should trust in and believe this original nature of existence which has a certain energy to let you pass through your life to freedom. Believe me: this is important. Each of you take care of your life like this, and then you can build up sangha. Otherwise, even though apparently it’s sangha, it’s not sangha, it’s a usual community.
In the usual community, there is lots of fighting, lots of stuff there. Well, more or less I can agree with human trouble; I can accept [it]. But if you see more human problems in the sangha, I think each of you [should] pay more careful attention to your own life and to others’ lives, considering carefully how to deal with [people]; why we have to trust in [others], why we have to trust in self. Otherwise, there is no other place where you can build up a peaceful, harmonious life.
40:10
In the verse, [Hsueh Tou] says:
The whole earth is medicine:
Why have Ancients and moderns been so mistaken?
Well, not only the Ancients, but also today, many people make a mistake: a mistake of how to deal with religion, how to deal with spiritual life, how to deal with the practice. Practice is what? Practice is always handled in terms of the dualistic: “I am not perfect; that’s why I want to be mature.” This is the usual aspect of human life. I can accept [this]; but if you want to [accept this surface of human life satisfactorily], I think you should see human life in terms of a deep understanding.
[Tape change.]
… That’s why the verse says, “Why have Ancients and modern been so mistaken?”
Do you have a question?
41:54
Question: Hojo-san?
Katagiri Roshi: Hai.
Same person: How do you get back to that base of trust if you have been hurt or disappointed?
Katagiri Roshi: First, anyway, practice. Trust. Okay? Trust is not discussion. Trust day to day.
Even though people hurt you, anyway, trust. Be calm, be considerate, be gentle, be charitable. This is trust. Show the trust.
And then, [if] nevertheless some trouble is going, then you have to see what you can do, one by one.
I told you before, human life is just like a tangle of threads. Your life is not smooth, one thread – no.
Same person: I understand that!
Katagiri Roshi: That’s why you cannot cut off this thread with a scissors. People are very greedy, and very hasty: that’s why immediately we try to find a simple way to get rewards and conclusions. It’s impossible for us! If you believe this is a way of taking care of human life, you don’t know exactly what human life [is].
So first, anyway, accept this tangle of threads. This is trust.
And then, to accept it, that requires you… yesterday I mentioned, “enormous human resolute will.” Because [there is] lots of criticism there. Why do you trust this person and that person if they are hurting you? They don’t do anything good. So very naturally, your determination is shaky. But, first of all, we have to accept. In order to do this, it really requires enormous effort, great determination. “Yes, I will.”
And then next, you try to find something to do for him, for you, for somebody else. But if the basic manner is mistaken or wrong, then you cannot build a pyramid, because the foundation is very soft.
The foundation must be very stable. For this: trust.
Then we immediately say, “Katagiri said we should trust.” You know? And then if you see somebody who doesn’t trust me, [you say,] “Katagiri said you should trust anybody, so why don’t you?” This is already critical, criticizing people. That is not trust. […] You are already critical, because criticism means to escape from you, from others, instead of facing directly who you are. Remember this. Unconsciously or consciously, or verbally or not verbally, we criticize. We are critical toward others’ circumstances, instead of facing directly who we are.
So watch out to see who you are individually. And then, taking care, trust.
So this trust is not a matter of discussion… This trust is very humble. A very humble and gentle, considerate, charitable way of life.
Is that okay?
46:50
Question: Hojo-san, what you have explained reminds me a little of past talks where you mentioned right acceptance. Right acceptance?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: Is trust part of right acceptance?
Katagiri Roshi: [Sure.]
Same person: But what more would be involved with right acceptance? Well, let’s not talk another hour, but…
Katagiri Roshi: [Laughs.]
So that’s why trust and acceptance – right acceptance requires what [of you]? Simply speaking: wisdom, compassion.
And then wisdom, compassion requires you to practice actually, day to day. That is the six paramitas.
So very naturally, right acceptance, right trust – well, has lot of contents…