Platform Sutra – Talk 4
April 3, 1987 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Summary
Katagiri Roshi continues to comment on Chapter 2 of the Platform Sutra, further discussing whether the point of Zen is actually “to see one’s own nature and realize the Buddha Way.” He connects this to a passage from the “Scripture of Mountains and Waters” in Shobogenzo which relates to four kinds of misunderstanding of Buddhism, including the one we usually practice. We have to pay attention to Buddhist teaching and simultaneously produce creative life, like morning flowers blooming from a trellis: the trellis is important, but we must be free from the trellis.
Transcript
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0:00
Katagiri Roshi: Page 101:
“Good Knowing Advisors, my Dharma-door produces 84,000 wisdoms from the one Prajna. Why? Because worldly people have 84,000 kinds of defilement. In the absence of defilement, wisdom is always present, since it is not separate from the self-nature.
“Understand that this dharma is just no-thought, no-remembrance, non-attachment, and the non-production of falsehood and error. Use your own true-suchness nature, and, by means of wisdom, contemplate and illuminate all dharmas without grasping or rejecting them. That is to see one’s own nature and realize the Buddha Way.
(From The Sixth Patriarch’s Dharma Jewel Platform Sutra, published and translated by the Buddhist Text Translation Society.)
Here it says, “To see one’s own nature and realize the Buddha Way.” [I said before,] this sutra [talks] about this point, how important a practice [it is] for us to see into one’s own nature and realize the buddha way. He also [says] “that is” to see one’s own nature – [that is], “contemplate and illuminate all dharmas without grasping or rejecting them” (is to see one’s own nature).
One more paragraph:
“Good Knowing Advisors, if you wish to enter the extremely deep Dharma realm and the Prajna samadhi, you must cultivate the practice of Prajna. Hold and recite The Diamond Prajna Sutra and that way you will see your own nature.”
I think here [it says that] wisdom is always present since it is not separate from the self-nature, however, worldly people have 84,000 kinds of defilements. So, I think by the practice, or by the absence of 84,000 kinds of defilement, you can see this wisdom which is not separate from human body and mind, in other words, self-nature. So I think by the practice you have to see into this nature, one’s own nature, which is not separate from the self, or [is] present always in everyone. That’s why here it says, […] “Understand that this dharma is just no-thought, no-remembrance, non-attachment, and the non-production of falsehood and error.” This is characteristic of the dharma. And then, this is [the] original nature of the self, and also [the] original nature of the dharma. So we have to see into this nature. That is simultaneously to realize the buddha way.
So what is the purpose of Buddhist practice? According to this sutra, I think in many places it [always says] that we have to see into one’s nature, and realize the buddha way. That seems to be the purpose of Buddhist practice, Buddhist teaching, [it says here].
So, that is questionable.
Today I would like to say a little bit about this point.
8:05
I think in Shobogenzo “Shizen-biku”, “Four Zen Bhikkhus,” Dogen Zenji [talks] about the misunderstanding of Zen practice [or] Buddhist practice by many Zen monks in those days, quoting one of the Zen teacher’s statements. The Zen teacher [talks] about the realization of the truth based on [the] oneness of […] three [ancient] teachings in China and also Buddhism. There are three: Taoism, Confucianism, and one more; I forgot the Chinese [name]. One more, three, and also Buddhism. […] So one of the Zen teachers [talks about] the unity of the four religions [in China]. And then [for] each of the religions, [he states] the purpose of its own practice: what is the purpose of Confucianism, what is the purpose of Taoism, what is the purpose of Buddhist practice. [The Zen teacher says the purpose of] Buddhist practice is to see into one’s own nature. Then Dogen Zenji [says] that is a misunderstanding of Buddhism.
And even though the sutra of the Sixth Patriarch [says it] like this… Do you remember, in the beginning I think, the Sixth Patriarch sutra [talks] about this point? […] Page 43:
“The Great Master constantly exhorts the Sangha and laity only to uphold The Diamond Sutra. Then, they may see their own nature and straightaway achieve Buddhahood.”
Hmm. It’s not this one…
[Someone suggests page 47.]
Oh, that’s right, page 47, at the top of the page:
One day the Patriarch summoned his disciples together and said, “I have something to say to you: for people in the world, the matter of birth and death is a great one.’
“All day long you seek fields of blessings only; you do not try to get out of the bitter sea of birth and death. If you are confused about your self-nature, how can blessings save you?”
So very naturally you have to see your self-nature; this is the purpose of Buddhist practice [he talks about].
13:40
Then, I think in Shobogenzo there is a very interesting point [in] “Scripture of Mountains and Waters.” I think I gave a teisho last year about this one. But on page 91, it is a very interesting point here, so let me read [it]:
So it is that the total bringing forth of amassed qualities is made into form and name, into the lifeline. There is walking, there is flowing. There is a time when mountains give birth to mountain children. Because of the principle of mountains becoming Buddhas and Zen adepts, Buddhas and Zen adepts emerge and appear in this way. Even when we may have eyes for the manifestation of plants and trees, earth and stones, walls and fences, we are not in doubt, not disturbed – this is not total manifestation of being. Even though a time may manifest when it is seen as arrays of treasures, this is not the true ultimate. Even if there is manifestation of being seen as the realm of the Buddhas’ practice of the way, it is not necessarily something to love. Even if we attain the summit of seeing manifestation of being as the inconceivable qualities of the Buddhas, reality as it is is not only like this. Individual views of being are individual objects and subjects. This is not to say that they are to be considered the work on the Way of Buddhas and Zen adepts – they are limited views of one corner.
(From Shobogenzo: Zen Essays by Dogen, translated by Thomas Cleary, page 90.)
[Here] Dogen Zenji mentions four views [of] many people. The first one, [it says here, is,] “When we may have eyes for the manifestation of plants and trees, earth and stones, walls and fences, we are not in doubt, not disturbed – this is not total manifestation of being.”
[This is the first of] four kinds of misunderstanding of Buddhism. If you believe the purpose of Buddhism is to see into one’s self-nature and realize the buddha way… it seems to be right, but it’s not alright, it’s misunderstanding.
So, four kinds of misunderstanding, mis-views. […] Four kinds of misunderstandings means kind of four different persons – like a first grade child, second grade child, third grade, and fourth grade, okay? According to Tendai teaching, Buddhist teaching is classified into the four kinds of doctrines. Do you remember the first one? The Tripitaka Doctrine. And the second one is Shared Doctrine. And the third one is Distinctive Doctrine. And fourth is Complete Doctrine. Four kinds of doctrines, according to Tendai teaching.
So, first grade children are like the person who follows Tripitaka. Are you familiar with the Tripitaka? Tripitaka is the whole system of the Buddha’s teaching, including sutra and shastra and vinaya, precepts. Those are called Tripitaka. So, Tripitaka people – first grade children – think the world is nothing more than the manifestation of the plants and trees, earth and stones, walls and fences. So, the saha world. Saha means worldly affairs, the human world – we call [this] saha in Sanskrit. Saha means “patience.” So saha world is a defiling land.
But on the other hand, the Lotus Sutra [says], “When all the living see, at the kalpa’s end, the conflagration when it is burning, tranquil is this realm of mine, ever filled with heavenly beings,” et cetera. In other words, right in the middle of the burning of the world, there is a saha world where it is filled with heavenly beings. In other words, [the] saha world is… not a peaceful world, but right in the middle of the saha world there is peace, [it is] full of peace and harmony. So it’s a completely different statement.
But those [first grade] people believe the world is nothing more than the manifestation of the plants and trees, earth and stones, walls and fences – [that] means lots of things in the human world, the saha world. Plants and trees, earth and stones, walls and fences… and earthquakes and fires, volcanoes, et cetera. Many things… wars, killing, pros and cons, success and failure. The world is completely filled with ugliness. So [the] saha world is [a] defiling land.
But Dogen Zenji [says] here, [that] even though you see those people who [say] “the world is a defiling land, that’s why we need a practice in order to see into one’s own nature and realize the buddha way” – even though you see those people, don’t doubt the truth, we are buddha. And also he [says] here, “We are not in doubt, not disturbed.” Don’t be confused, even though you see those people who talk about this. Many people doubt, or many people are very confused, but don’t do it, you know?
And, “this is not the total manifestation of being.” Because that statement is not the total manifestation of being. In other words, [the teaching is] not talking about the total picture of what the human world is. It is just one corner.
25:28
The second-grade child [is one] who follows the Shared Doctrines. The Shared Doctrines means, according to Tendai, I think the agamas and Vimalakirti Sutra, Prajnaparamita Sutra, et cetera. It’s very common doctrines, open to everyone: the shared doctrines. So that is like second grade children. Dogen Zenji says, “Even though a time may manifest when it is seen as arrays of treasures, this is not the true ultimate.”
I think those who follow the Shared Doctrines, or second grade children, take a view of the world as treasures. They believe the saha world is treasure. Because they see – what can I say – plants and trees, walls and fences, earthquakes and fires, and starvation, whatever – we see all those things [or] events as a piece of advice of how to live peacefully. Because we don’t like earthquakes, or fires, or starvation – but we can learn a lot from earthquakes and starvation. And misunderstandings and mistakes, you know, everyday life. We don’t like mistakes, but we cannot escape mistakes, and we cannot escape fires and earthquakes. So very naturally human beings create a culture of how to live in peace and harmony right in the middle of [an] earthquake. So [an] earthquake is not always bad. So they believe that we see earthquake or fire as [pieces of advice of] how to live peacefully. In a sense, we see plants and trees as treasures.
But that kind of understanding depends on the individual viewpoint, because still [it is] dualistic – earthquake and fires and also the self, here. The self sees walls and fences, earthquakes and fires, et cetera. And the first grade children say, “That is awful.” The second grade children say, “No, it’s not awful; it’s treasures! Because we grow, as human beings who know how to live in peace and harmony. So an earthquake is what? It’s not wrong.”
But I think that’s why many Buddhist scriptures mention transforming circumstances, transforming the objective situation into the inner world, inner life. Or, the purpose of practice is to transform absence of the mind into, well, realization of Buddhism, the buddha way – or transforming delusion into nirvana. That is the purpose of Buddhism we [talk about]. But that is the second grade children’s viewpoint, because it is still dualistic.
So that is the second point Dogen Zenji mentions here.
31:39
The third: “Even if there is manifestation of being seen as the realm of the Buddhas’ practice of the way, it is not necessarily something to love.” This is the people who follow the Distinctive Doctrines, according to Tendai.
In other words, how can I say [it] – you know the story of the outlook on the world in India? They believe right in the middle of the universe there is Mount Sumeru. And at the top of Mount Sumeru is a place where [unintelligible] Shakra, the gods live. Around this top of the mountain there are four corners; in each corner, gods as guardians live. And also around the bottom of the mountain, there are eight mountains, nine kinds of oceans. That is according to the stories of the outlook on the world in India. Primitive understanding; Mount Sumeru is just like [a] Himalayan mountain.
And at the bottom of Mount Sumeru is the saha world toward the south. [And] that world is called Jambudvipa, […] where Buddha Shakyamuni can stay and live. So […] the inhabitants in Jambudvipa, the saha world, cannot experience so much joy and pleasure in life in comparison with other realms of the world toward the north, to the east and to the west – [those] are kind of heavenly worlds, [where] they can enjoy very much. But in the saha world, so-called Jambudvipa, the inhabitants cannot experience [being] full of joy, full of pleasure, et cetera, but they can experience dharma joy, because that is the place where the Buddha Shakyamuni can live. That is what Buddhist scripture says.
So in the universe, according to this story, there are sixteen big countries there, and also 500 middle-size nations there, and one hundred million small-size of the world. [And] among them, there is Jambudvipa, [the] so-called saha world.
So from this point, the saha world, our world, is the only place we can live, because Buddha lives [here]. So the saha world is not bad. So we love the saha world so much, because there is no other way to live.
But Dogen Zenji says, even if you believe like this, that place, Jambudvipa, is not altogether something to admire, to love.
37:53
The fourth: “Even if we attain the summit of seeing manifestation of being as the inconceivable qualities of the Buddhas, reality as it is is not only like this.”
So fourth grade children, who follow the Complete Doctrine according to Tendai, which means Sadharma Pundarika Sutra and Nirvana Sutra, et cetera. Anyway, they believe that the saha world is the inconceivable merit of buddhas.
Well, I think the Sadharma Pundarika Sutra [talks] about this point. Because the saha world is the only place where people can live, where buddhas and ancestors [and] bodhisattvas can live; if so, the saha world is filled with inconceivable merits of buddhas and ancestors and bodhisattvas. In other words, the saha world is Buddha’s world. So wherever you may go, you as a bodhisattva build up a buddha’s land. This is a point [which] many Buddhist scriptures [talk] about. Do you know that?
So we believe, “Yes, that’s it! That is a point we should believe as the purpose of Buddhist practice. Wherever you may go, build up the truth.” Even Dogen Zenji [talks about] this point. What is the point of Dogen Zenji’s teaching, ancestors’ teaching, and Buddha’s teaching? It is to build up the truth wherever you may go. Standing, walking, [doing] gassho, and zazen, eating breakfast, whatever you do – all you have to do is to build up the truth. [Truth] means buddha land. Even though many people create wars, killing, and producing nuclear weapons, all you can do is to build up the truth, buddha’s land, day by day, from moment to moment, wherever you may go. Don’t be disappointed, because saha world is a buddha land; saha world is the unique place chosen by Buddha Shakyamuni where he should live. That’s what they [always say].
I think that seems to be true, okay? [He chuckles.] But still, it is questionable.
That’s why Dogen Zenji [says] here, “Even if we attain the summit of seeing manifestation of being as the inconceivable qualities of the Buddhas, reality as it is is not [only] like this.” No. Reality is what? If you believe like this, is reality-as-it-is just like that? No. Your life in reality is what? Full of suffering.
So you say, “No, it’s not true.” But on the other hand, we are seeking for that buddha land. And also, it is possible for us to build up buddha land wherever we may go, because the saha world is the unique place chosen by buddhas and ancestors where they can live.
[Tape change.]
… No, it’s not, because reality is not like this.
So what is the point of practice?
Finally, no answer.
44:05
So, [the] four kinds of understanding, four-fold viewpoint [or] outlook on the world, on human beings, seems to be right. Not necessarily [just] Buddhism, but also other religions [talk] about this.
I think the point is: the saha world is Buddha’s place. So I think according to the Triple Treasure, we should completely believe, we should devote ourselves into buddha, the Triple Treasure. And then, on the other hand: if you look at your life very closely, life in reality is not like a life based on the Triple Treasure [of] buddha, dharma, sangha. It’s always full of suffering.
So, where do you live? You live in the sangha. What is the sangha? Is the sangha a peaceful place? Yes; the meaning of the sangha is a peaceful place. But, [it is] full of suffering. Because sangha is human beings who seek for buddha and dharma. But as best as we can, try to build up buddha land and the human world based on the Buddha’s teaching. Because everyone who practices in the sangha is seeking for the same things. That’s why we try to believe and trust buddha dharma, and then practice it.
So [the] important point is, we should devote ourselves to buddha and sangha. It means, buddha and saha world. Where is it you want to practice? Buddha land. Where do you build up buddha land? In dharma? No. In the sangha – filled with suffering. So right in the middle of suffering, the so-called saha world, we have to build up buddha land.
So naturally, you can see a contradictory situation.
So you cannot be the first grade child, you cannot be the second grade child, or you cannot be the third grade child. Fourth grade: if you graduate from university, you seem to be wise, clever. But still: questionable. Because practically, life in reality is full of suffering. Even if you get a Ph.D., even if you practice zazen for many years, still [you are] five skandhas. What’s going on around the five skandhas, still? And also, what’s going on around the people?
48:35
So, […] you should read this agama, it’s very interesting. The title is, I think, Digha Nikaya, “Dialog of the Buddha, Part 1.” On page 65, there is a sutra called Samaññaphala Sutta. Sutta means sutra. Samañña means shaman or monks. Phala means result. So, [the] result which the monks can have through the practice of the buddha way – this sutra [talks about] this, the result of the monks’ practice. That is called Samaññaphala Sutta. You should read this one. It’s not so long [a] sutra.
I think the point is, the four kind of views – first grade, second grade, third grade, fourth grade children – [speaks] about our attitude, how to live, how to take care of the human world. They seem to be right, because it is a teaching, whatever they say. That’s why the Sixth Patriarch [says here there are] eighty-four thousand wisdoms, eighty-four thousand different teachings there. Because [there are] twenty or [thirty] people here, [with] different types of life, different personalities: different worlds. So I think if you see the human world seriously and study, learn, very naturally you can have an outlook on the world and human beings. That’s why [there are] many kinds of religions.
So finally Dogen Zenji says, it is not important to discuss about which is the better teaching. The point is your degree, how much intention you have in order to practice. In other words, the main point is the quality of the practice you do, day by day – whatever you may be. Kind of [like what the] fourth grade children [say]: wherever you may go, you can build up a buddha’s world.
Dogen Zenji also [says that] when you do gassho, gassho is gassho – that’s it! This is a teaching, this is a doctrine mentioned by the Lotus Sutra, Nirvana Sutra, Avatamsaka Sutra, et cetera. But is that the most important teaching? Yes it is… but it’s not “yes,” because reality-as-it-is is not like this. Even though buddhas and Dogen mention that you can build up buddha land wherever you may go – you can do it! But, reality is different, because you cannot do it.
But, it is true, okay? So, if you want to have Right View, right outlook on the teaching, maybe you should choose [the] fourth grade children. Because you live in the saha world, but how do you accept the saha world? You shouldn’t accept the saha world as the saha world; maybe you should accept the saha world as a buddha land. That’s good. That’s better! Actually it is better than the first grade and second grade, et cetera. So it’s better; you should accept this one. But the question is, how do you put this doctrine into everyday life? Not discussing about what kind of children you want to [choose]. You have to do it, every day.
So, Buddha’s teaching, Dogen always says you can do it, you can build up buddha land – not in the other countries, but in Jambudvipa. Right there, you can do it. So let’s do it!
So, we practice it. Here is a teaching, and then believe it, and devote yourself – anyway, depend on this teaching, and practice it. And then when you practice it, actually, practically speaking, you can build up buddha land. When your consciousness spins, then you don’t believe it. But practically speaking, you can build up, because if you sit down here peacefully, harmoniously, you can build up [a] peaceful world. Even though the world around you is always creating and producing miserable, ugly stuff – [there is] still peace. So wherever you may go, you can practice just like this zazen. Even though right in the middle of many people around you who are always creating trouble, [still] you can build up peace. That is our practice.
And then, you can experience something to love, so-called wonderful experience. And then you believe, “This is [the] right doctrine. So let’s depend on it.” If the other people don’t believe this doctrine, always we fight. This is trouble.
So the question is, you should be liberated, okay? Because liberated means practice is always practice. Through the practice, naturally you can experience result, but the result is not [a] unique place [that] you should depend on. So the result is a result, but you have to be liberated from the result. So experience the result, be liberated from the result. And then next, experience the result, and then be liberated.
So what’s the main point of practice? The main point of practice is like the sutra mentions, achieving continuity of going beyond. Like the Prajnaparamita [Sutra]: gone. “Gate gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha.” So achieving continuity of going beyond is [the true,] unique place you can depend on. It is what? It is just practice, every day.
58:58
So, there are two points you have to pay attention to about Buddhist practice, okay?
First one, you must pay attention to the Buddha’s teachings, doctrines expressed in words, and the development of the Buddhist thought. That is a teaching: shastras, sutras, you should pay attention to this, the development of Buddhist thought in Buddhist history, after century after century. Alright?
The second: at the same time, you have to pay attention to one’s deep strength, [by] which we should not only go beyond those forms… Forms means the systems of Buddhist thought and doctrines, et cetera. Buddhist teaching, that is the form. So, simultaneously we must pay attention to one’s deep strength, powers, [by] which we should not only go beyond those forms, but also the transcendence of those forms [is] able to be expressible and actualize-able as creative.
In other words, two points: You have to pay attention to Buddhist teaching. Second, still the purpose of Buddhist practice is to produce creative life. Creative. Creative life is, you must be free from the forms, but you should depend on the forms, so-called teachings. […] You should depend on the development of Buddhist thought in Buddhist history, [like hooking] a trellis, like morning flowers, alright? And then the point is [that] you should pay attention to the reality as it is, where you live: what is human life? So, very naturally the vivid aliveness of your life is not in the trellis, not in the forms of the teachings, but the place where you are free from those forms. This is the reality as it is. We call [this] shohō-jissō, as in suchness or thusness, we say.
(Transcriber’s Note: There is a chapter in Shobogenzo titled “Shohō-jissō.”)
So we have to be free from those forms, and then you should create life.
So, the purpose of Buddhist practice, finally, is just to maintain […] going beyond. Going beyond means hook the trellis and then grow. You cannot depend on the trellis. The trellis is important, but you must be free from the trellis, otherwise you cannot grow.
So then, what do [I] mean, to grow? That is hook the trellis and be free from. Then, you can have a creative life. This is a Buddha’s teaching.
That is a point Dogen Zenji [always talks about].
1:03:46
And finally, Dogen Zenji [says], “Individual views of being are individual objects and subjects. This is not to say that they are to be considered the work on the Way of Buddhas and Zen adepts – they are limited views of one corner.”
This is a really important point. Otherwise, you are always confused, and you doubt Buddha’s teaching. But if you understand these two points: well, whatever people say, Buddhism is where, you know? It’s alright, you can accept it, and you can take care of human life. Even [if] in the theological point of view Buddha’s teaching is lower than Christianity: it’s alright. But anyway, you should pay attention to these two points. Then you can really appreciate Buddha’s teaching.
Even among Buddhism there are lots of schools. Soko Gakai in Minneapolis, [for example]. Minneapolis Soko Gakai people always put you down: “Zen is stupid,” you know? Well, how can you do this, how can you take care of your human life right in the middle of that confusion? You should know [these] most important points of Buddhist practice; otherwise, you’re always confused. Even within your personal life, you don’t know how to take care of human life.
So I think this sutra [says this]. Even if you don’t believe Dogen’s teaching, I think this sutra [talks] about this point. That point [is], liberation must be liberated from liberation.
What do [I] mean? If you practice, you can get the result, naturally: good or bad, right and wrong. By the experience of [stumbling] again and again, then you can realize… well, liberation. But that liberation is not real liberation, [the] real purpose. Liberation must be liberated. That means just achieving continuity of going beyond. Because you have to build up peaceful world where? Right here. [The] saha world.
It’s not a discussion, anyway. You should do it.
But if I [say], “You should do it. [It’s] not discussion. Keep your mouth shut,” then you are suffocated to death. That’s why let’s understand Buddha’s teaching. So we should open our mouths. But if your open your mouth, very naturally you are really crazy about the teaching, and [also you have] complaints. That makes you [suffer more]. So you should know the main point of the buddhas’ practice.