Zazen: Entry to the Buddha Dharma
March 7, 1987 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
List | Previous | Next | Series: Fundamentals, Bendowa
Summary
Katagiri Roshi introduces a series of talks on the question-and-answer section of Bendowa, “Negotiating the Way.” He discusses why zazen is the “right entrance to the buddha-dharma” – particularly, what “right” means – and the meaning of shinjin dotsuraku, “dropping off body and mind.”
Transcript
0:00
Katagiri Roshi: During the training sesshin starting this week, we [will] study the questions and answers which occur toward the end of Bendowa, written by Dogen. In the first and second question, Dogen Zenji [talks about] how important zazen or Zen meditation is. The first question is:
[Question 1:] Now I have heard and understand the sublime merits of zazen…
Before this question and answer Dogen Zenji [talks about] the sublimity of the practice of zazen. So that’s why it says here, “Now I have heard and understand the sublime merits of zazen…”
However, an unthinking person might have doubts and say, “There are many entrances to the Buddha Dharma, …”
Many entrances to the Buddha’s world, or spiritual world, or universal world, whatever you say. There are many ways.
“… what is the reason for your advocacy of zazen alone?”
So the answer is:
Answer 1: Because it is [the] right entrance to the Buddha Dharma.
Here it says [the reason] why we have to practice zazen first, as sublimity of practicing and studying Buddha’s teaching. It is because it is right entrance to the buddha-dharma. Right entrance.
And the second question is,
[Question 2:] Why is it alone the right entrance?
The answer is,
[Answer 2:] The great teacher Shakyamuni Buddha beyond doubt rightly transmitted zazen as the wonderful means for attaining the Way. Also, the tathagatas of the three periods all attain the way through zazen. That is the reason they have transmitted [it] from one to another as the right entrance. That is not all: patriarchs from the western skies of India to the eastern earth of China all have gained the way through zazen. Therefore, I now point it out to men and devas as the right entrance.
So this answer is very interesting.
Question number two is, “Why is zazen alone the right entrance?” The answer is, […] beyond doubt, Shakyamuni Buddha and ancestors, many buddhas, transmitted the wonderful means for attaining the way. Also, the tathagatas of the three periods all attain the way through zazen. That is the reason they have transmitted from one to another as the right entrance. That means beyond doubt, Buddha Shakyamuni and many buddhas and ancestors just accept the practice of zazen, and learn what the Buddha’s teaching is, what the universe is, what the peaceful life is. That’s why it is called right entrance – right entrance to the buddha-dharma, to the universe. Right entrance to get into the peaceful world.
In this case, I think the most important point is, in Zen Buddhism particularly, Dogen Zenji [talks] about right entrance. Right means that you have to learn something straightforward[ly], without artifice or design, without intention or purposes.
Let me say [it] like this. When you devote yourself to do something using your intention and will, consciousness, with a purpose, and then, if you continue to devote yourself to accomplish one thing you want to do, finally, you discover that there is no sign of intention and purpose, because your whole body and mind becomes one and they work together.
For instance, if you look at [playing football], [or] the tea ceremony, [or] archery, or whatever you do – climb the rock [faces of the] mountains – first of all you have to use your consciousness and intention. Instead of being enslaved by consciousness or your intentions, you really have to use intention and consciousness, and be one with the rock mountains and the football. And then, you will discover that there is no sign of intention or purpose, because purpose and intentions are completely melted away right in the middle of the dynamic activity of climbing the mountain or playing football, between the ball and you, between the rock mountain and you. That is called to learn something straightforward[ly], without intention or artifice or design or purposes. It doesn’t mean you should ignore or destroy your consciousness, et cetera. Is that clear?
That is one point. The second point is: what is learning? To learn is not to know something or to put the knowledge into your head. To learn is what is called mane be in Japanese, “ma-ne-be.” Mane be [is the] root of learn in Japanese. Mane be means to imitate or emulate; this is called to learn in Japanese.
But if you say “to learn” or “to study something,” you immediately have a preconception that you should get some knowledge from the object, from the teacher, or from your activity, et cetera. But this is not real learning, because from this you never experience totally ripeness. It’s pretty difficult to deepen your life [that way]. In order to deepen your life, or in order to make your life ripe, I think you should learn human life in the universal perspective. In other words, you should put yourself in the total picture of your life, interconnected, interpenetrated with all beings, and then you can learn something. That is called to learn. So to learn is to emulate, to imitate something.
That’s why here it says [that] Shakyamuni Buddha and ancestors, all teachers, beyond doubt, transmit this sublime practice of meditation from generation to generation, up to now, whatever ages change.
That is most important. How can you learn the sublimity of human life from your parents, your superiors, your grandparents, your grand-grandparents? How do you learn? It’s pretty difficult to learn the sublimity of your grandparents’ life and your grand-grandparents’ life and your American ancestors’ life. It’s pretty hard. Of course you can learn, you can have lots of knowledge of American ancestors from books, from teachers – but that is pretty shaky, because that knowledge disappears sooner or later. And also, that knowledge doesn’t penetrate your body and skin. So I think knowledge is important, but the most important point is you have to learn the sublimity of human life from your grandparents, from the teachers, from your friends, from the superiors. How? Just, you have to imitate. Emulate.
But maybe you have a question: why do we have to emulate or imitate somebody’s life? You don’t like it. That’s why Zen Buddhists always complain, you know? The teacher says you should do this or you shouldn’t do that – immediately Zen students start to complain, because “I don’t want to be [blind],” you know? “I don’t want to lose myself.” Of course, I understand. [Laughter.] Because [people are] pretty self-centered, you know? Not only Americans – everyone. But particularly, I am very surprised to see American students emphasizing always, “I come first.” [He laughs, and then the group laughs.] I don’t know how to deal with it… [Laughter.] But I must be always patient and right in the middle of that self-centeredness you always present. And also, […] I always demonstrate what I am, and that which I have learned from the teachers, […] from Buddha’s teaching, et cetera.
So I think this is the most important practice for us. Imitating is not to be a “parrot,” okay? Do you understand “parrot”? Someone says, “Good morning”; you say, “Good morning.” [Laughter.] [That] is not to imitate or emulate.
In human history, we found the fact that two trees rub each other and finally it makes a fire. And then, human beings discovered the way how to make a fire through this fact. And then human beings just imitate. Do you know how to make a fire [like] in the ancient time? Human beings exactly imitate what the trees did, in order to make a fire.
So, I think imitation or emulation doesn’t mean just to imitate, but you have to have a creative life. From imitation, from emulating somebody’s life, then you can create your life. Otherwise, how can you deepen your life?
This is [a] most important point, alright?
So that is right entrance to buddha-dharma. If you want to get into what the peaceful world is or what the peaceful spiritual life is – you cannot get any knowledge from that, you know? So you have to put yourself right in the middle of the peaceful, spiritual life, mentioned or suggested by teachers and the Buddha’s teaching. Anyway, we have to imitate, emulate.
That is zazen, anyway. Okay? Zazen.
18:32
So, the next question is, how can you put yourself right in the middle of zazen, and then what can you learn?
Then Dogen Zen says, “Sanzen is zazen.” Sanzen means to surrender to simplicity in life. This is sanzen, which is translated usually as “practice.”
So practice is to surrender to simplicity in life. Simplicity means that which is pretty neat and tidy, unsophisticated. Pretty simple – and also, within the simple manifestation of life, there is a rich quality of life there. It’s simple, but it’s not the simple you usually understand, but within the simplicity of your life, there are lots of rich, abundant qualities of human life. That is called ripeness.
So sanzen is zazen. How can you surrender to simplicity in life? Dogen Zenji [says], that is zazen.
And then he says, zazen is shinjin dotsuraku, that means “casting off body and mind,” in other words “dropping off body and mind.” Or, he says, “Dullness and distraction are struck aside from the beginning.”
Dullness and distraction are not something you try to remove. If you try to remove [them], you create more distraction and dullness. Because dullness and distractions are something that [is] created, produced, by your attitude, by your actions, activities – so, according to […] conditional elements, conditional circumstances. So you don’t know how to be free from [them]. No matter how long you use techniques – psychologically, philosophically, or scientifically – you never get freedom from dullness and distraction. The moment when you feel freedom from dullness and distraction, immediately you are confused right in the middle of freedom of dullness and distraction. That’s why human beings constantly seek for the psychologist to let you be free from dullness and distractions. You know? You always feed the psychologist. [He laughs.]
So at the dropping off body and mind, if you do zazen, simultaneously the dullness and distractions are struck aside from the beginning. This is a key point of zazen. That’s why Dogen Zenji [says], “This is the essential art of zazen.”
Let me say [more about] this one. What do [we] mean by “dropping off body and mind the moment when do zazen, the moment when you devote yourself in zazen”? Let me say it like this.
[…] Let’s imagine that you [are getting into] a hot bath in the cold weather. In the rigors of Minnesota winter, your body becomes very cold. After that, you put your body right in the middle of a hot bath, okay? The moment when you put your body and mind in the hot bathtub, what do you say?
Several people: “Ah.”
Katagiri Roshi: “Ah!” [Laughter.]
That’s pretty simple! “Ah!” – that’s it. It’s no particular word, [just] a simple word. “Simple word” means a ground word, coming from the bottom of your heart. When your body and mind becomes one with the hot water and bathtub and all circumstances – including your memories, and distractions, dullness, all stuff. And then when you become completely one with the [bath], then you can demonstrate simplicity in life – so-called, “Ah!” That’s it.
Within the “ah” – who are they? Can you pick up something particular? Pay attention to just the moment, at the very moment when you say “Ah.” Who are they? What is it? What is there? Can you say it?
After “ah,” you pick up you, who says “ah.” But I am talking about before you say “ah.” Okay?
Here is a partition, a very thin partition, just like a very thin curtain.Very thin silk. Not silk… silk is still touchable, but that partition is not touchable, but it’s still something there. Just like a mist. A mist is pretty hard to grasp, but it’s there. And then if you touch it, it disappears, and you can get next door. This is a […] door.
So […] you are coming back to your home, and you put your body and mind in the bathtub. And then immediately within this partition you create your own life, so-called “ah.” Simple life. And then right before this partition, right before you touch [it] – this is the very beginning of the moment, okay? The very moment, before you think of it, before something runs through your consciousness. In that [situation], I think your body and your consciousness and the water become exactly one. That situation is never described. But your body and the water [are] functioning simultaneously, together.
And then, the next moment, you say, “Ah.” That is the next moment. And then when you say “ah,” people are very interested in the “ah” which you have demonstrated. Then, you are involved so much in what “ah” means. [Laughter.] What are they – the hot water, and your body and mind? Who makes me say “ah”? Something like that. This is “scientific,” you know? Modern civilization. And then finally, you don’t know where you are going. And also, you completely forget the first stage, the very first stage of your life. Completely you forget.
[In the] first stage of your life, there are many beings which are functioning interpenetratedly, interconnectedly, together. This is oneness. Look at this sunny, wonderful day, you know? Well, how many beings exist? When you feel that wonderful sunny day, you say, “Ah, wonderful!” And before you say “wonderful,” how many beings are working together, interpenetratedly, without any hindrances? This is called the universe, we say; this is called oneness. In the oneness, that is a place where all beings come together and are working together and walking hand in hand, without hindrances, creating a peaceful world.
Even [beyond] Minnesota. The rigors of Minnesota winter shake hands with the winter of Hawaii, in peace. You don’t believe it, but this is true. The Japanese monkey talks peacefully with the elephant in India. Can you believe it? You don’t believe it. But this is the place where all sentient beings come together and talk together, which is called oneness. We say universe, we say the truth.
But if you are involved so much in the dualistic world, after creating a “wow,” you completely forget that first stage of your life. That’s why spiritual life is constantly to let you [get] back to the first stage, the first stage of a “wow.” That’s it.
That’s why you don’t understand it. But when you are there, completely the dullness and distraction, the form of the five skandhas, are struck aside from the beginning. And then, what do we mean? Your body and hot water becomes one. This is called intimacy, perfect intimacy. Secret intimacy we say: very secret intimacy. No gap between.
This is called right, [this is] the meaning of the right. And also that is a gate, entrance, to communicate with the universe. Universe means the total picture of your life working together with all sentient beings. Okay?
So that is called dropping off body and mind. When you do zazen, immediately you say “Ah!” That’s it. But you don’t say “ah,” because zazen has no particular object, so-called bathtub, you know? So that’s why you don’t know. You are always using your mind and body, and that’s it. That is subjectivity and also object. And then the whole world comes into you.
And then, when you say “Wow!” this is called samadhi, we say. Concentration. Total concentration, total devotion. And also this is called jijiyu samadhi, “self-joyousness.” Self-joyous samadhi, we call it.
In other words, this is called, “Ah!” That’s it. But in zazen, you cannot say “ah,” because everyone [is] quiet. [There are some chuckles.] So, you have to enjoy the self-joyous samadhi concentration right in the middle of zazen.
This is “dropping off body and mind.”
33:48
And then, […] what makes it possible for this, dropping off body and mind? Is it an idea? Is it a concept or perception? No. Just activity there. Total activity, which is “neat and tidy,” so-called simplicity. Simple activity.
Simple activity means using your consciousness and using your whole body with wholeheartedness and jump into the zazen, and then this is called simplicity. That is called activity. Our activity is usually very complicated, but in zazen, activity is very simple, which means very tidy and neat, unsophisticated. Very pure, simple.
This is why that simple activity is important: in order to experience intimacy. Let me explain this once again.
Dogen Zenji explains about washing the robe in Shobogenzo: how you can wash the robe using [water with ashes]. In ancient time we didn’t have soap, so using [water with ashes]. I don’t want to explain this [way], I want to explain [using] your washing machine.
So, look at the washing machine. If you want to wash your dirty clothes, you have to put the dirty clothes in the washing machine, and also, next, the pure, clean water there. That is called the dualistic world: dullness, distractions, and good or bad, right and wrong; the phenomenal world.
And then, when you put the water in [with] the dirty clothes, then next, what do you do?
People: Soap.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, soap. And then what do you do?
People: Turn it on.
Katagiri Roshi: Turn it on! [He laughs.] If you turn it on, then what happens?
Someone: It agitates. […] [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: If you turn it on, what happens [with the machine]?
People: It mixes it all together.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, mixes together. What makes it possible for something to mix it together?
Someone: It goes around.
Katagiri Roshi: It turns around! Yes. Moving. Machine is moving.
Someone from before: Agitating!
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, that’s what I mean. I’m sorry. [Laughter.]
Anyway, machine [is] moving: that is our practice, so-called simple activities, constantly. Alright?
And then, […] by the standing on the simple activity, then you can create the world, so-called dullness and distraction, pure and impure, good or bad, right or wrong, funny guys and beautiful men, sunny days and winter, and many things can happen. Alright? That is called “dirty clothes in clean water.” Purity or impurity.
And then the people are very interested in impurity or purity. And then finally they don’t know what to do. Do you understand?
But actually, under the dirty clothes and the clean water, what’s there?
Under all circumstances, always there is movement there. Alright? And then… Pay attention to this one, alright? Don’t forget this one. Whatever happens, [whether] you like or you don’t like, there is a wonderful world there. That is called whole universe, you say. Sometimes you say, “Universe takes care of me.” What do you mean, the universe? Universe is not a concept. Universe is not something you can get by your “head trip.” Universe is something active. If you believe there is a universe, universe must be manifested or realized in your everyday life. Otherwise, no sense of universe.
So, there is a universe which is beyond your consciousness, but that universe must be manifested, realized by you, in your everyday life. At that time, universe becomes phenomenal world. Okay? Universe blooms its flower, so-called phenomenal world, pure [and] impure – like this. What is a pure sense of the universe? Pure sense of universe is constantly moving, under dirty clothes and clean water. Which you cannot see. Movement is invisible.
So, under all circumstances – whatever you feel from your life, whatever you feel from the world – there is always [a] universe which is working, very active, to support all sentient beings, to create the human world.
And then, what happens?
Then, there is nothing to attach to, so-called dirty clothes, because dirty clothes turn into clean clothes. Clean water becomes dirty water.
But usually people don’t believe this, because if you have a concept, so-called clean water, you believe that it must be always clean, always! Idealistically it’s true, but it doesn’t work in your everyday life. Is that clear?
So, clean water must be dirty water, in order to make the dirty clothes clean! That is the phenomenal world, that is called intimacy, that is called interdependent co-origination – helping each other. Alright?
So, all we have to do is to practice zazen with total activity, which is simple, tidy, and neat. Unsophisticated.
And then, you can see the nightmares, fears, and many things. But if you always concentrate on these activities, distractions [are] coming up, but they turn into not-distractions, because always that moving makes it something different. Just like a washing machine.
So, you don’t believe that if you sit down exactly, dullness and distraction are struck aside from the beginning, [as Dogen Zenji says]. But that is called the unique way to participate in peaceful, harmonious, spiritual life. Otherwise, no way. No way.
How do you do this? You have to just emulate this practice. Imitate, as exactly what the ancestors and buddhas have done. You have to do it. And then, you can really deepen your life, and that practice makes your life ripe.
And then from this ripeness, from this deepening your life, then you can create philosophy, psychology from this. [From the depths of] the well, psychology and philosophy and religious teaching are coming up. But people completely understand the religious teaching reversed, in the opposite way: first there is a teaching, and then we try to mold our life into the teaching. [He laughs.] Or we try to get the knowledge from the teaching, and then try to be free from something. You cannot do it, because your body and mind are always supported by the movement in dynamism, so-called universe.
So, who is Katagiri? Katagiri is Katagiri. Finally, what do you mean? Katagiri creates his own phenomenal world, but on the other hand, Katagiri has to stand up constantly in this total dynamic activity, as best as he can. And then, he can deepen his life. The same applies to your life, whatever you do. This is called …
[Tape change.]
… and Dogen Zenji says here, “This is called right entrance to the Buddha Dharma.” Right entrance to participate in peaceful and harmonious human life.
Do you have questions?
45:50
Question: I have two. The first one has to do with, way at the beginning of your lecture, you talked about will and activity. […] Will, or purpose, design… And you said that… I wasn’t quite sure what you said. It sounded to me like you said that, you would start out with will and purpose, and then it would disappear as you became more one with the activity.
Katagiri Roshi: If you use it. If you use the will, intention, and volition, instead of being enslaved by it.
Questioner: Can you talk about what the difference is?
Katagiri Roshi: “Slave” means your intention, your will, is not manifested in a simple way, because it is connected with the heredity, and karma, and the past life, and also memories, et cetera, and also your five skandhas, your body. So it’s pretty complicated; if you try to manifest your will, intention, it doesn’t manifest itself in a simple way. It’s a little bit complicated.
Questioner: Uh-huh.
Katagiri Roshi: That’s why I said, instead of being enslaved by intention or purpose, and your will, we have to use them. That means, you must be master of yourself, in whatever situation you may be. In other words, not to lose [sight] of yourself. Do you understand? No?
Questioner: Not really. I’m not sure what it means, not to lose sight of yourself.
Katagiri Roshi: For instance, intention. “I want to do zazen.” Okay? That intention originally must be very simple. So that intention lets you do something very simply, directly, straightforwardly. Okay?
Questioner: Okay.
Katagiri Roshi: But if you start to do it, [he laughs,] intention gradually [becomes] very vague. You know?
Questioner: Yeah. Kind of like, if I want to do zazen because I’d like to be a great master, because I’d like to…
Katagiri Roshi: Right. Very complicated. The first beginning of intention is a little bit clear and very nice. But the second moment, intention becomes a little bit mixed up by something else, you know? Because immediately in the first moment, you have experienced something which seems to be good, and then you say, “Wonderful!” [He laughs.] And then the intention becomes a little bigger. And the next moment, you don’t experience something nice, so intention becomes pretty… dejected? […] A little bit confused.
So, intention originally is very simple, but [then] it’s not. So finally, you are “enslaved” by intention.
Questioner: I understand.
Katagiri Roshi: Okay. Next question?
Questioner: Can I ask another question? […] Towards the end of the lecture, you were talking about the dualistic world, good and bad… or destruction, destruction was the word that you used. (Transcriber’s Note: This is incorrect; the word he used was “distraction,” as in “dullness and distraction.”) And you said that from this activity, the dualistic world, destruction and… creation, maybe, I don’t know if the other side would arise. But then, as it arose, the destruction, because of the activity, would become something else. So, what should be our attitude then, toward that destruction?
Katagiri Roshi: […] You should stand up constantly in the place of total activity. Just like a machine, okay? Which is tidy and neat. So, simple activities. Alright? As best as you can. This is the attitude toward distractions, and dullness, and suffering, and [lots of] stuff. Your basic activity must be simple and neat, as best as you can. When you get the opportunity, even one moment, you try. Okay?
That’s why we do zazen. Zazen is simple!
Questioner: And it will change.
Katagiri Roshi: I hope! [Laughter.] But don’t expect [it]. Because it’s not your business. [It’s] universal business.
That’s why Dogen Zenji says, “You throw away yourself into the Buddha’s world, then you are drawn in by Buddha’s world, without using your effort.”
Because, climbing the mountain, in the beginning you use intention and purpose, […] lots of complicated procedure. But the more you devote yourself into the rock mountains, finally you forget yourself, you go beyond time, and finally between the rock mountain and you, [there is] very nice communication, kind of energies. And then finally, even though you don’t use any effort, you just climb the mountain.
So finally, you can stop it. (Stop using your effort.)
So who climbs the mountains? Mountain climbs the mountains. That’s it, finally.
Usually, through this spiritual life, you don’t believe this. But the [mountain climbers], and the dancers, and the writers, and many people experience this. That’s why I suggest reading the book, you know…
Questioner: The one that costs $25? [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: Beyond Boredom and Anxiety. You can read that book; pretty interesting book. It’s pretty close to Zen teaching – not exactly, but it doesn’t matter, you know? It’s very interesting. Twenty-five dollars. [Laughter.]
Someone: You can get it in the library.
Someone: Oh, good. […]
(Transcriber’s Note: The updated version of the book is Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience, by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. It is now a national bestseller. The original is out-of-print.)
Questioner: So we shouldn’t… Secretly, we may have a feeling that we want that destruction to go away, right? […]
Katagiri Roshi: First point, I think if you say distraction, and confusions, and the human world, I think first of all, I mentioned to stand up in the total activity which is neat and simple and tidy. Okay?
Questioner: Mm-hmm.
Katagiri Roshi: That is how? You must be a little bit… not a little bit! You must be magnanimous.
Magnanimous means generous. Your mind, first, [must be] generous. You know, generosity means [to] not let you be mean, nasty. If you see confusions and angers, et cetera, you shouldn’t be nasty. It’s pretty easy for us to be nasty, because if you act on angers, and distraction, and suffering, et cetera, according to your emotion, immediately you become nasty, pretty easily. So, you shouldn’t be nasty, because naturally dirty clothes turn into clean [clothes in the] water, because behind the dirty clothes and clean water always [there is] the total activity, which is invisible. What makes dirty clothes clean? That is the activity behind.
Questioner: Okay. Yeah, I guess that’s what I was asking you, whether you meant that what arose as destruction, okay, initially… [through the form]
Katagiri Roshi: Well, […] that’s why if you become generous, I think the first point is you shouldn’t be nasty. […] Which means you shouldn’t act on [something] immediately, according to your preconception, according to your understanding. Okay? Take time, and be generous. And then, very naturally, you can see the distraction in a broad scale, little by little. Alright?
Questioner: Okay.
Katagiri Roshi: And then, second is, you should learn the broad scale of the human life through distraction and suffering, et cetera. Sickness, old age… Okay? It’s not bad. [Pause.] I hope! [Laughter.]
But in a sense, [your insides are] burning. Your insides, screaming. Do you understand? In other words, your mind doesn’t accept. But that’s alright. Through the suffering and the pains, you can learn a lot.
Any other?
58:29
Question: I have one. When you say “zazen is the way,” by zazen, do you mean sitting in a zendo regularly, or something more general, by that?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, regularly, that is the best way. Regularly on a daily basis: that is kind of making fire by rubbing two branches. If you stop it, you miss the chance to make fire. So on a daily basis: this is pretty nice. But still, it is difficult [sometimes], according to the individual circumstances.
Questioner: But essentially, you see that it should be with the group and with the teacher, as opposed to in some less structured way?
Katagiri Roshi: Not [necessarily]. You can practice by yourself. But I think practice by yourself, sitting at your home, is nice, but sometimes your practice is going in a different way which you have never seen before. Unconsciously, you are going in a different way, which you have never expected. So you need lots of help. [Some laughter.]
Because if you sit down, how many consciousnesses can you see? And what kind of experiences have you had? It’s very difficult for us to “solve,” […] to know how to deal with those experiences. So finally you need guidance, you need help, in many ways.
As your circumstances allow, we try to practice together. But if you cannot, well, you can practice at your home. That’s fine.
1:00:55
Question: I have a question. You’re talking about in the washing machine, the dirty water, and the clean water, and the clothes, and I can understand the action of the universe underneath it that’s invisible. But I don’t understand what the action of the universe underneath sitting zazen would be – because it’s still.
Katagiri Roshi: It’s not still. It’s still, but active, both. You can see both.
Because if you sit in the stillness perfectly, you can see the lots of activity of your body and mind, you can get lots of energy. So totally your whole body is working smoothly. So it’s not still. And also you can see the universe in equality, and your mind becomes peace, because your mind penetrates to every inch of beings, trees, birds, and pebbles, and you can share your life.
Most people say that sitting is pretty inactive. They want to help people, so instead of sitting zazen, always, “I want to help human beings,” and [unintelligible], et cetera; that movement is more attractive to us. But that is a misunderstanding. I don’t mean you shouldn’t do it – if you want to do [both], that’s fine. But if you want to seek the peaceful spiritual life, I think [you have to learn what it is].
And also, if you have such a movement, peace work movement or whatever, I think in the total activity there must be always peace. Otherwise you cannot deal with your activity in dynamism, sharing your life with all sentient beings.
1:03:30
Question: Hojo-san? A few weeks ago, somebody asked you about joy, and you said that joy is ego too? And that feelings, emotions, including joy, are all coming from the ego?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, joy is connected with self-consciousness, self-centeredness, pretty much. Because it is something which you have experienced. Okay?
Questioner: Mm-hmm. But Hojo-san, what about the story of the monk who gets up and dances for joy year after year, before he hits the meal han or whatever, before he announces the meal? Do you remember that story? [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: That’s [a Zen koan]? Hitting the han, in his whole life?
Yes, I can understand. I don’t know. But that is … well if you explain it, you can use the term joyousness. But that joyousness which is manifested in his life is something still, and quiet, invisible. Because it is very personal. Okay? Real peaceful joyousness is very personal. Is that okay? It’s very difficult to tell you, or it’s very difficult to give it to you, to understand it. No.
Questioner: So you’re saying there are two kinds of joy, one which is ego, and one which is very quiet, that we don’t understand yet, that isn’t ego.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. So, joyousness is based on self-centeredness and also not-self-centeredness – both. So that’s why self-centeredness turns into the not-self-centeredness, by quiet dynamic movement, so-called washing machine.
Do you understand? No?
Questioner:A little bit.
Katagiri Roshi: Okay, good. That’s enough. [Thank you.] [Laughter.]