Zazen: Dropping Off Body and Mind
January 24, 1987 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Summary
Katagiri Roshi discusses the meaning of the phrases “dropping off body and mind” and “sanzen is zazen” in Zen Master Dogen’s teaching. This is related to the meaning of Avalokiteshvara as compassion. Also: suffering, faith, and emptiness.
Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
Nyojo Zenji (Tiantong Rujing), Dogen Zenji’s teacher, [said] that “sanzen is zazen,” [and] zazen is shinjin datsuraku, “body and mind casting off” or “casting off body and mind.” […] This is the key point of our practice of meditation, the Zen meditation we do. So today I would like to say [something] about this.
First of all, you should keep in mind that Zen Buddhism tries to see or hear or understand the world and human life in terms of practice, or […] action. Or, action is still a concept, so I would like to say, “the point of action which is constantly going.” So, flow action, or flowing activities.
Zen Buddhism, particularly Dogen Zenji, constantly mentions that we should see or hear [or] understand the human world in terms of flow actions, flow practice, flow process. Constantly, under all circumstances. Not in terms of concept, not in terms of the conceptualized world. The world you can usually see is already something conceptualized; this is the world you live [in] and you believe. But if we present the world [as] something more than conceptualization, you are very confused, because there is nothing to depend on.
Usually everyone depends on, consciously or unconsciously, conceptualization of the world. That’s it; this is your world. So the Buddha and ancestors try to present the world before you conceptualize. That’s why it is a little difficult to understand it. But, we have to. We have to research it. We have to taste it. We have to understand it. Okay?
“Sanzen is zazen.” Sanzen means literally to surrender yourself to tranquility or simplicity in life. To surrender yourself or to submit to perfect tranquility or simplicity in life. This is called sanzen. Usually sanzen is translated as “practice,” but “practice” in English doesn’t hit the mark to sanzen.
Fukanzazengi [which we] chant every evening uses the original term sanzen. So remember, sanzen is to surrender yourself to tranquility or simplicity in life.
Simplicity is manifested only when your circumstances are very simple and neat, clear. That’s it. At that time, that is great opportunity or great chance for us to manifest simplicity in life or tranquility in life.
It’s very difficult to manifest simplicity, tranquility in a complicated world. But we live usually in a complicated world; that’s why [we ask] how can we manifest, how can we find […] simplicity in the complicated world. This is a little difficult point for us. But we have to do it. That’s why every day we try to practice.
You don’t realize [the] great capability you have, enough to become an artist, but originally you have [it]. But we don’t know. That’s why within the world we don’t know, we have to build up the world we have already possessed. So that’s why [it’s] a little difficult for us.
That’s why sanzen is zazen. So in order to submit to tranquility or simplicity in life, [that] is to do zazen. […]
7:53
So [as I mentioned], Zen Buddhism tries to see or hear [or] understand the world in terms of the flow process, flow activity, flow action – not in terms of conceptualization. Of course, conceptualization is important, because we live already in the world conceptualized by us.
The world of conceptualization is kind of a blueprint you can draw. It’s important for us. Through the blueprint, you can imagine what the house will be, and you can build up practically what kind of a house should be. So a blueprint is important, [so that] you can imagine, you can be a person who can build. You can be carpenter. You can be the person who looks at, who imagines objectively what kind of house will be. But […] blueprint is blueprint, so [through the blueprint] you cannot live there. Is that clear?
In the world of conceptualization, I think people become, what would you say… onlookers or carpenters. You become onlooker or you become carpenter. Carpenter means you participate in building up a house directly. […] Onlooker means I am not a carpenter; so I can look at the blueprint, and through the blueprint I can imagine what kind of house will be, but […] I don’t understand what kind of house will be through the blueprint. But I have a right to look at the blueprint… constantly [he laughs], with hope and desires. So always looking at [the blueprint], and thinking, and imagining, etc. On the other hand, there are people who can be the carpenter. [A] carpenter knows pretty well what kind of house will be.
But even though you become an onlooker or carpenter, you never have a chance to live in that house. If you live in that house: well, the world of conceptualization is not perfect, blueprint is not perfect, [so] you will realize many things, [like] something wrong. Is that clear?
I’m not criticizing carpenters or blueprints. I am talking about the usual world of conceptualization, [which] you always enjoy very much, you always live [in]. Naturally, the world of conceptualization we live in is not perfect, but it is important for us, because without [the] blueprint we cannot live. Okay? But a point is, you have to see the house in terms of [a] practical point of view; in other words, in terms of the person who tastes the house through his life, every day. So there is a very close, deep communication with a house and a person. Even though you believe blueprint is perfect, if you [actually live there], there are many things you will find: a good point, a weak point, many things. Sometimes, nothing to say.
I think another example is the relationship between a piece of paper and fire. If you burn the paper, probably you may say paper is something separated from the fire, in terms of the world of conceptualization. It’s very clear: you can see the existence of the paper separated from the fire. Fire separate from the paper, in terms of the world of conceptualization. But actually… what do you mean, by burning the paper? In terms of active understanding, active penetration – flow practice, flow activity, flow process – between fire and paper? In other words, in terms of the true reality of the fire and paper. Can you separate [them]? You cannot separate [them], because paper is fire, fire is paper. But if I use [the words] “paper is fire, fire is paper,” it’s already dualistic.
For instance, I [always use the example of the sentence], “Katagiri [dies].” You know: what do I mean? I cannot explain the real true reality of the death of Katagiri using the sentence, because the subject, Katagiri, exists now, because you acknowledge the presence of Katagiri as a subject. Then I say Katagiri, and next, “die.” What do I mean? Here is Katagiri who is present as a subject, and then next, [the] verb, you have to explain who Katagiri is. So very naturally, dualistic. And then Katagiri dies, disappears. In order to understand […] “disappear,” you have to have a preconception of the presence of Katagiri in the sentence. It’s very dualistic, so it’s very difficult to understand the true reality of death. Same applies to the fire, burning the paper.
So in terms of true reality of the paper and fire, you cannot separate. Paper is fire, simultaneously. No gap between. But it’s very difficult to understand it. Very difficult, because we get use of seeing, hearing, understanding the world in terms of the world of conceptualization, always. That’s why no matter how long constantly we [talk] about that point, we don’t see it. We don’t see it. But we have to understand it. Okay?
17:23
And there is a story about Gasan Zenji (Gasan Jōseki), who was a disciple of Keizan Zen Master (Keizan Jokin), the fourth [ancestor] from Dogen Zenji.
[One day Keizan Zenji said to Gasan Zenji], “Do you know there are two moons?” Gasan Zenji said, “No, I don’t. I don’t understand there are two moons.” And then, in the history, I think Gasan Zenji spent three years constantly contemplating about this message. The three years for him is really many, many years for us – because his practice was really serious and with full concentration, using the three years perfectly. So three years for him is exactly something more than… five years for us? Ten years. So “three years” means many, many years.
Do you know [what] “there are two moons” means?
If you see the moon in the sky, you say the moon is one. That is your understanding. But that is really the seeing, hearing, understanding the moon in terms of the world of conceptualization, because in the conceptualization you always bring up you first: “I see the moon.” Okay? Always separation. So you cannot see the true reality between you and the moon who are merged, interfused, completely. So at that time, who is the moon? Moon is I. […] I and moon. You cannot see it.
Exactly like the relationship between the fire and paper. We always see the paper and fire in terms of the world of conceptualizations. So even though [we say] “paper is fire, fire is paper,” you don’t believe it. But it is true. Because in the world of the truth, something happens, always something is going. This is called the true reality [that] you live in. Beyond your like or dislike, something is going, constantly. Don’t you think so? [Whether] you hate yourself, or you like yourself – it doesn’t matter. Actually, [he chuckles,] your life is going. Your life is going, something beyond human criticism. Your life is going, [and] your life is growing. Your life is supported by something else. Something.
So I think that’s why Keizan Zen Master asked Gasan Zenji, “Do you know there are two moons?” “Two moons” means, if I see the moon, Katagiri is a moon. But in terms of the world of conceptualization, we believe always “moon is one.” Yes, it is… but that moon is not real moon, that moon is the moon seen from the world of conceptualizations. Because you always bring up you first, and then you see the moon. So [there is] no chance, no opportunity where moon and you are interfused wondrously, beyond your conceptualization, your speculation. True reality is something wondrous. You don’t know. Inconceivable. Where moon and you are interchanged, and create something: this is the true reality you live in. This is your life.
So that’s why [Keizan] Zenji says it in that way, and then [Keizan] Zenji says, “If you don’t understand, you are not my successor.” So Gasan Zenji takes it very seriously! [He laughs.] If he has ambition or desire to be his successor, […] he takes it very seriously, and contemplates it for many, many years.
Or another story, in the Book of Equanimity, the story of Ungan and Dogo.
Ungan Zenji is sweeping the ground, and Dogo Zenji says, “You are working hard.” […] Ungan is a little older than Dogo Zenji, they are relation of dharma brothers, okay? And Ungan says, “There is a one who isn’t working hard at it.” And then Dogo says, “If so, you are talking about the second moon?” Second moon means dualistic world. Dualistic world [is] because [he is] working hard, that is the reality which Dogo Zenji saw, and then Ungan says, “No, no, no. You should see something else, who is not work harding at it” – if so, Ungan Zenji is talking about something more than hard work. So, pretty dualistic.
In other words, paper and fire. Alright? Dogo mentions about paper, and then Ungan Zenji says, “Oh, yes, you can see the paper, but you should see something else, so-called fire.” And then Dogo Zenji says, “If so, fire is the second moon?” [That] means, [is it] something different from the paper?
And then, Ungan Zenji immediately held up the broom, and said, “What kind of moon is it?” He held up the broom means you should see the true reality where fire and paper are burning from moment to moment, so-called flow burning. [He chuckles.] Okay? Flow burning, before you poke your head into it. If you put your hand over the fire, you immediately say, “Ouch.” The “ouch” is something real. In the something real, I think you can see the hand, which is identical with the fire. Fire is your hand – otherwise, you cannot say, “Ouch!” You know? [He laughs.]
But, anyway. So, Ungan Zenji shows true reality where paper and fire are merged and interfused simultaneously, beyond your speculations. Can you say it is fire, or it is paper? No. Paper and fire become one. Interfused. This is the true reality. That’s why Ungan held up the broom immediately, saying, “What kind of moon is it?”
If you look at Katagiri, Katagiri is here and Zen Center is here. Okay? Katagiri [is working] hard at it! Aren’t [I]? But, there is nothing else to say beyond hard work or not hard work, because I am only Zen Center. I am Zen center, so I have to do it, beyond hard work or not hard work. As long as Zen Center exists in this world… well, I cannot stop living, anyway. I have to live. So I must see or hear or understand Katagiri through the true reality between Katagiri and Zen Center, which are merging, interfused completely. So, what is Katagiri? Katagiri is just flow activities. There is nothing to [put a] name on.
At that time, within that flow activity, flow practice, sometimes you can see the result named Katagiri, sometimes you can put the name on it so-called Zen Center. That Zen Center or Katagiri is just like a flashing light. So you can see the flashing light, Katagiri. And then, I am very involved in that name of Katagiri, and then stumbling, and grumbling, always. That is [the] human problem is going. Okay? But anyway, even though I can see [lots of the] flashing lights, [the] point is I have to go back to that real reality, true reality, and constantly I have to live, and pass by that flashing light as soon as possible.
So that is the meaning of that koan.
30:25
But here is the interesting [teaching about] Avalokiteshvara in the Saddharma Pundarika Sutra (the Lotus Sutra).
Right in the beginning, in the first paragraph, I think Saddharma Pundarika [talks] about the reason why Avalokiteshvara is named as Avalokiteshvara, as compassion. Avalokiteshvara means to see the world, and to be seen by the world. Avalokiteshvara, as compassion, sees the world, and then the world sees Avalokiteshvara. So, if I see [all of you] with compassion, you already see me as compassion. Because you are already seen by compassion. So because I see you with compassion, you see me with compassion. Just like paper and fire.
So, Avalokiteshvara means to see the world and the world sees Avalokiteshvara. In other words, to see the world [and] to be seen by the world. This is the meaning of Avalokiteshvara. So, true reality, communication is there, between the world and human beings. And then, at that time, there is nothing to separate or analyze, like a paper and fire. There is a oneness, which is called compassion.
So […] true reality, which is going on between the world and Avalokiteshvara, is […] compassionate. It is very compassionate: to support, […] to sustain, to uphold. According to general Buddhism, it is called dharma. So the meaning of dharma is to support; [it is] something supporting, [upholding]. This is called dharma, or the truth.
So, in the first paragraph, the Lotus Sutra mentions the reason why Avalokiteshvara is named as Avalokiteshvara. And then, the Infinite Mind Bodhisattva asks Shakyamuni Buddha about the reason why he is called Avalokiteshvara. […] This is a very interesting point, you know, because not a usual person asks Buddha, only something infinite asks Buddha. You cannot ask, you cannot know, you cannot talk about Avalokiteshvara or true reality if you are a person or being who lives in the usual world of conceptualization. You don’t see Avalokiteshvara [then]. You must be infinite thought, you must be infinite bodhisattvas. So that’s why first of all the Lotus Sutra brings up a person named Infinite Thought Bodhisattva, [who] asks about the reason why.
And then the Lotus Sutra says: There are myriad, myriad beings who suffer troubles. […] If they see or hear the name of Avalokiteshvara, they call upon him with wholehearted effort. At that time, Avalokiteshvara saves you from many kinds of troubles, simultaneously.
This story reminds me of the meaning of zazen, and also “body and mind casting off.” If you sit down, that is casting off the body and mind, dropping off body and mind, [freedom] from body and mind. If you burn the paper, paper is simultaneously fire. In terms of conceptualization, you don’t understand it, but actually paper becomes fire simultaneously. So if you sit down, immediately your body and mind is casted off. We don’t believe it. But it is true. Actually true. Totally true.
So, let me read that passage:
The Buddha answered the Bodhisattva Infinite Thought: “Good son! If there be countless hundred thousand myriad kotis of living beings suffering from pain and distress who hear of this Bodhisattva Regarder of the Cries of the World, and with all their mind call upon his name, the Bodhisattva Regarder of the Cries of the World will instantly regard their cries, and all of them will be delivered.”
(From The Threefold Lotus Sutra, translated by Bunnō Katō, et al.)
We don’t believe it.
If you believe it: you try, okay? Call upon the bodhisattva’s name. And then immediately: suffering, suffering; still suffering [is] with you. So you don’t believe it. And then you say, “Oh, the sutra tells a lie!” [He laughs.] Because you always see the world in terms of the world of conceptualization, you never know. But it is true. There is no other way to be delivered, free from human suffering.
So, “if many, many beings [hear the] the name of Avalokiteshvara”: Avalokiteshvara means [that] if you see the world very deeply, then you can hear the sound, very deep sound. You don’t know what kind of sound is there. Because you cannot say it is a good sound, or it is a bad sound. You cannot say. Is it something pensive? Oh yes, sometimes pensive! But if you feel pensive, immediately next moment it’s not pensive, [it’s] something more than pensive. So if you experience something, [you put] the name on it and then say pensive, but immediately the moment when you name it you can return to the source, and then you don’t know what it is. Pensive disappears, and then, something more than pensive. And then next moment it’s not pensive, and you put the name on it: it’s not pensive. And then immediately… well, something more than not pensive. [He laughs.] So you don’t know. Finally, you [are] always going back to the point, and then [there] you don’t know.
So when you see the world very deeply, you don’t know how [you can] say. There is some sound, something there.
And also, that sound of the world is something you are always looking for. And then, that is something you are looking for, that’s why you want to get it. But you cannot get it, actually, through your experience. So finally, that is suffering, very direct cause of suffering.
So finally you say, “Please.” Don’t you think so? “Please. How can I call upon?” You say, “Please. Please make me simple. Please make me free.” Whatever you say. [You] call upon something towards the sky, saying please.
The moment when you say so, it is called Avalokiteshvara.
There is a subject: you are calling upon. And then, is there an object you are calling upon? No, no object. Because the subject, you, who is calling upon something […] is simultaneously [the] something you are looking for. Because it’s pretty deep. So if you look upon, and if you call upon, immediately that is Avalokiteshvara. That is the reason we call it Avalokiteshvara.
So when you sit down, you don’t know why you sit down in zazen. Well, if you think it, many reasons are coming up. But any answers, any reasons don’t hit the mark exactly. […] You cannot ignore those reasons you have mentioned, because it is a part of truth. But not totally.
So totally, what do you want?
Totally what you want is just to be present exactly right in the middle of true reality, where you and zazen [are] exactly merging. Nothing else.
So to sit is to call upon something. To sit zazen exactly [is] something you call upon.
So, where do you sit?
You exactly sit right in the middle of something you are always looking for and calling upon. We don’t know what it is. But it’s always there. You can see [it], through the seeing the world very deeply.
So that’s why if you sit down exactly, I think you feel something, you taste it. Because if you sit down, by virtue of seeing deeply the human world, hearing the sound of the world, immediately you manifest yourself with wholeheartedness. So that is called, here it says, “with all their mind.” [In Japanese] we call it isshin: one-mind, exactly with one-mind.
So whoever you are, whatever reason you have, [if] you come here and sit down, immediately you can sit with all your mind, wholeheartedness. Even for a moment. That’s pretty good…
[Tape change.]
… anyway, true reality, where all minds are interfused.
So very naturally, all you can do is constantly, […] you have to return to the source of zazen, which [is] based on casting off the body and mind.
This is the point we are always seeking. This is called faith. This is called faith. And philosophically, this is called emptiness.
In the beginning, emptiness can be seen just like lightning and thunder. Pretty quickly, you know. So it makes you excited, very much.
But if you penetrate gradually, again and again, it goes very slowly in your life. And […] wherever you may go, [you can always see] emptiness. That’s pretty hard. Because it’s “sneaking in,” [he laughs,] “invading” your life, kind of invading. Have you ever experienced [this]?
That’s why I mentioned, in the beginning, if you start to do zazen, you feel wonderful, because lots of excitement there. Because you can see the lightning and thunder, which you have never experienced. It’s wonderful! Then, when you go gradually, deeply into Zen practice – finally you are very confused. Because something is sneaking in, invading you, very slowly. Very slowly. Kind of, you know, […] squeezing your neck like a jellyfish. [Laughter.] You don’t notice it, but actually it’s really something, you know, [suffocating you]. So you say, finally, “Please!” [He laughs.] Okay? So that is very difficult. But you have to go through.
And if you go through, in the middle of Zen Buddhism, then you can see many things. And also, something sneaking in, invading your life, that’s pretty hard to stay with. But if you go through it, that something sneaking into your life turns into […] effort, great energies. Okay? Believe me. If you don’t believe me, please believe Buddha. [He laughs.] It’s exactly great energies. Because energy is just like that; energy is coming up. That’s why energy or human effort is just like spring water coming from the ground.
Because true reality is structured by emptiness. [The] structure of the world is kind of [like] the blueprint: you have to live in the structure of the world. At that time, that is called true reality. At that time, you don’t know what’s going on there. But you have to be there.
And also, you have to be there because you are looking for that point. That’s why you sit down.
Usually we are always involved in intellectual understanding. That is important, as a blueprint. It is important, but it’s very difficult to taste true reality, which is going on as a flow activity, flow process of life. So, that’s why practice is very important. Zazen is really [the] essence of our practice, [the] basic essence, basic practice for us. That’s why zazen is very important for us.
Alright. That is called “zazen is casting off or dropping off the body and mind.” Body and mind is [zazen], and the dropping off body and mind is zazen.
Is there a question?
51:02
Question: Roshi? In the beginning, you talked about sanzen and zazen. Linguistically, is san a different etymological meaning than za? Za is “sit,” a Chinese word, right?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes.
Questioner: And san is what?
Katagiri Roshi: San is to surrender.
Questioner: [The] first meaning.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. The san of san zen is “to surrender” or “submit.”
Questioner: Thank you.
Katagiri Roshi: … or “to visit,” actually. To visit. Okay? [They laugh.] You cannot visit objectively. If you want to visit, your body and mind must be there. That is called surrender. You have to surrender yourself to, otherwise you cannot visit. Okay?
So, that is the san. Zen, linguistically, that is “to manifest simplicity.” So that’s why “to submit yourself to the simplicity or tranquility,” that is sanzen. What is it? This is zazen.
To submit yourself to simplicity is simultaneously casting off, dropping off your body and mind. In other words, free from, you know, many, many sufferings. We don’t believe it! But this is true.
If you don’t understand, remember the example [of] flow energy between the paper and fire. Okay? Flow energy, flow activities, between. Right in the middle of flow activity of the paper and fire, is there something you can separate, you can analyze? No.
This is [the] zazen we do. So-called shikan: whole-heartedness.
Any other questions?
53:39
Question: If we drop off body and mind, where do they go?
Katagiri Roshi: Nowhere.
Nowhere. Just be there.
Do you understand?
Questioner: [A little.]
Katagiri Roshi: After dropping… [He laughs.] After dropping off body and mind […], where is the dropping off the body and mind? Is it somewhere separate from you? Outside from you, or inside of you? Or between? Where is it?
There is no particular thing objectively you can see, or there is no particular thing seen objectively as subject (or subjective). While you can see the something subjective or objective, that is the world of conceptualization you can see. You don’t believe [it] actually, but if you really devote yourself as a practice, you do it!
If you don’t believe, I always mention that book, [he laughs,] “Flow Experience,” you know? (Transcriber’s Note: The book is Beyond Boredom and Anxiety; the updated version is now titled Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience.) You know, the mountain climbers, football players… look at those people who are exactly participating in the practice, action itself. Where is dropping off the body and the mind? Your body and mind is really flexible. There is no frame of your body and the mind right in the middle of flow practice of playing football. No! If you see [it] even slightly, you will be hurt. You cannot play football [that way].
So you don’t see yourself particularly as a subject, you don’t see something objective, so-called ball. No, you cannot see. But there is something: ball and you communicate totally, right in the middle of flow practice of playing football.
Without this, you cannot see any development, any progress. If you see the progress, and then, where are you heading for? Nowhere. All you have to do is just, you have to be right in the middle of flow progress. That’s it. Every moment you have to do it. No other place.
Any other questions?
57:19
Question: Roshi, why do we conceptualize?
Katagiri Roshi: Because you have a consciousness.
Because your consciousness is “vibrated.” Okay? [He laughs a little.]
Questioner: Okay…
Katagiri Roshi: Vibration of your consciousness means to separate. Vibration of consciousness means to know something. To know something is to dichotomize. Okay?
Questioner: Uh-huh. Is there something about the process of conceptualization that is necessary?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, a process there. […] Procedure, how to conceptualize. You can practice, you can study psychology and philosophy; they always give you how your consciousness conceptualizes the world.
Questioner: Yeah, that wasn’t really my question though. I was wondering if there was something about the process of conceptualization that was necessary or important to being able to be in the flow process.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Yes.
So that’s why you have to see the depth of conceptualization, what is the root of conceptualization you built up. We have to see. That’s why Avalokiteshvara has to see deeply the world. Okay?
Questioner: … “Deeply the word”?
Katagiri Roshi: The world. And then you can hear the sound. That is the root of the conceptualization.
Questioner: Okay.
Katagiri Roshi: In other words… Experientially, I think, through the conceptualization of the world, people are suffocated to death and choked. It’s not “pain.” It’s not “pleasure.” But it is not unpleasure. […] Something. But we are choked. [He laughs.] Then finally, we say, “Please.”
Questioner: Too much of a good thing?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm! So that’s why we want to get it.
1:00:15
Question: You described practice as calling on Avalokiteshvara.
Katagiri Roshi: Huh? I beg your pardon?
Questioner: You described sanzen, zazen, or practice as calling on Avalokiteshvara.
Katagiri Roshi: No. That is if you see […] the meaning of zazen, […] the quality of zazen, very naturally there is Avalokiteshvara coming up. You know?
So the quality of zazen is pretty rich. There is compassion, and also looking at yourself very deeply, looking at the world very deeply. Many things there. That’s why I mentioned Avalokiteshvara. It’s not something different.
Questioner: So my question is, in other schools they have a practice of calling on Avalokiteshvara, or nembutsu.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Questioner: But (in this tradition) we say that’s not necessary. That’s what Dogen says, [that] it’s not necessary, isn’t it?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, we cannot say it’s not necessary. [He laughs.] We cannot say it’s not necessary… but we cannot say it’s necessary.
Questioner: Why don’t we do it?
Katagiri Roshi: That’s why we sit! Sitting is a front gate. Okay?
There is always a front gate. But around the house, there are many gates to get in: from the side, from the back door… Just like Zen Center: you have to go in from the back side, you know? [Laughter.] But still front gate there, and also side gate there. Outside porch, you know? You can get in. Or you can get in from the window… [Laughter.] Or you can get in from the upstairs, climbing [up to that] porch, you know? So there are many ways to get in. But there is a front gate, anyway. So the front gate is a very simple practice, simple. That’s it.
Then, […] [if] you say nembutsu is a side gate. I’m not criticizing the side gate, okay? Back gate, or the side, it doesn’t matter. But if you [look at] the side gate, so-called nembutsu: what is the point, the real point of nembutsu? What should you do? Should you always see the beautiful face of Amitabha, you know, with the light giving forth, and painted with gold? Or, [saying] “Amitabha is always helping me,” or imagining Amitabha’s world, paradise? Whatever you can imagine, it is a blueprint of Amitabha. What do you have to do? Anyway, build the Amitabha. Okay? So you can be the carpenter, so-called building up Amitabha’s world: that is Gokuraku, paradise. But finally, what you have to do is to live there. What do I mean? Just, nembutsu. So, right in the middle of real reality, between the nembutsu and you there is nothing to [put a] name on, so-called name of Amitabha, so-called prayer, so-called person who prays. No. So what is it? Exactly simple. Manifesting simplicity in life. This is called shikan. So finally, you can go back to the source: zazen. That’s it.
Is that okay?
Questioner: No.
Katagiri Roshi: No?
Questioner: Why only offer the front gate? If there is nothing wrong with the other gates, then why only offer the front gate?
Katagiri Roshi: No, nothing wrong, nothing right. Nothing wrong, nothing right. But all things come back to that source. That’s it. That source is temporarily called front gate, because people don’t understand it. That source is really vast.
Just like […] children’s play. Scissor and rock and paper. But actually children’s play is whatever: it’s no name of scissor, no name of paper, no name of rock. That is the true reality of the world: nothing to name. But if there is nothing, it’s very difficult for children to play! So temporarily let’s [put a] name on it, so-called paper, so-called scissor, so-called rock. And then we enjoy.
So we [put a] name on it: front gate, side gate, back gate. And then we play, we enjoy very much. And then finally, we forget [the] front gate, [he laughs,] if you play with the back gate. Okay?
Questioner: I don’t understand [the last thing you said].
Katagiri Roshi: Well, if we are always enjoying with the back door, we completely forget the front gate.
But, never mind. [A couple people laugh.]
Any other question?
1:07:07
Question: Is it a problem to forget the front gate?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, actually you cannot forget it, because you are already standing in the front gate, so regardless of whether you forget or not, sooner or later you go back to the front gate. But, I don’t think you should take a long, long time to go back to the front gate! [Laughter.] As soon as possible, the sooner the better. [He laughs.] Because life is not so long. Do you understand?
On the other hand, life is so long. [Laughter.]
Someone: Especially when you’re sitting. [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: I am not talking about wrong or good. Okay? There is a front gate.
Someone: Would you repeat what you said when you say, it begins to take over your life, it creeps into your life, and you feel like its choking you, but when you go through… would you say that again?
Katagiri Roshi: Choking…
Someone: The squid. [Laughter.]
Someone: Jellyfish.
Katagiri Roshi: Oh. The squeeze.
Well, that is… How can I say?
Well, [he chuckles], if you see the world very deeply, I think you can see something more than the world usual people have understood. Okay? And then, whatever it is, we don’t understand yet what it is. But if you see something deeply, it is a kind of a beautiful peak of the mountains, far from us. Spiritually, we don’t see the particular peak. But if you see the mountain, you can see the beautiful peak, and then everyone looks at that. If you see that beautiful peak, you really want to climb and reach it. Spiritually, if you see it, we don’t know what it is, but it is something like a beautiful peak, and then, we try to climb. Okay? The more you climb, the more you feel “the peak is far from us.” But practically speaking, the peak is very close to you. That’s why you see the peak and try to climb, to reach. Do you understand? The more you climb, the more you try to reach that peak, the more the peak seems to be far from you. But [it’s] actually not far from you, it’s very close to you. That’s why you want to climb.
So, [it’s a] little bit complicated situation, contradictory. You feel very close, practically, you taste it. What is the depth of the human world? What is the sound of the world? That is a beautiful peak. It’s very close with you, that’s why you want to get it. The more you try to get it, the more that that peak is far from us. And then, finally, we don’t know what to do. Then we completely lose our sight. Then people are confused.
At that time, I say, more or less, it is called very basic human suffering. “I want to get it, because it’s very close to me.” But the more you try to do it, practically, it seems to be far from us. That’s why there is always some very basic human suffering. That suffering is called “to squeeze your neck with a jellyfish,” kind of like that. It’s not comfortable, but it’s not uncomfortable. [There’s] something there.
Someone: Hojo-san, when you go through that, do you reach the energy?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. If you go through that, you can become great laughter.
That’s why, if you read the Zen stories, you know, Yakusan Zen Master laughed one night, and then the world of 40 square miles, you know, the whole world is shaking. [Laughter.] It seems to be ridiculous, but this is trying to explain how great laughter is. Laughter means you can really taste that point.
So, that’s why human suffering, basic human suffering, “suffering” means unsatisfactoriness. Always there [is] unsatisfactoriness. That is not something wrong, but not something comfortable. But it is totally true. That’s why we say “Noble Truth”.
Okay.