Shōbōgenzō Kokyo: Form and Mirror – Talk 2
October 19, 1986 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Summary
Katagiri Roshi further clarifies the three main points in Zen Master Dōgen’s Kokyo, “The Ancient Mirror”.
Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
0:00
I would like to consider again what I said yesterday, because these are important things, and also a little difficult to understand… So I would like to consider it once more with you. The point is, what is the mirror that the essence of human existence is reflected in?
What is a mirror? I mentioned yesterday: if you look at your life, there are many kinds of mirrors which are called culture. But if you want to practice spiritual life, I think we should know what the spiritual mirror is like. Even though you don’t have experience of this kind of mirror, as best as we can we try to approach to that mirror. What is it like? What [is its] structure? How is it working with us? So as best as we can, we try to approach to it.
That’s why I [told you] you yesterday [about] Kokyo, “Ancient Mirror,” [written] by Dōgen. There were three points [which] I mentioned.
The first point is a co-existent place. The ancient mirror is the co-existent place where all beings walk in peace, in harmony. Beyond races, thoughts, social position, personality, forms… beyond all things. Everything is reflected in that mirror. This is co-existent place.
So very naturally, a bird and butterfly walk in peace, in harmony. Japanese monkeys walk with elephants in South Africa, in peace, in harmony, talking to each other.
Saint Francis, who spread Christianity in Japan, was noted as a holy person who could speak with a bird. I think the bird and Saint Francis stood up in a co-existent place. They walked in peace, in harmony.
So when you and when the butterfly and when the bird are reflected in that mirror, very naturally the essence of their existence talks to each other. Not the form, not [the] karmic form of their life – the essence of their life talks, meets together in the same place, and walks together and talks together. This is the first point I mentioned yesterday.
So very naturally, if you seek for spiritual life, I think your mind becomes soft, and also your look becomes the same look as the ancestors and buddhas. Look at, well, whatever spiritual person – how can I say… Christian minister. There are many Christian ministers in United States. From now on, pay attention to the Christian ministers, whoever they are. Well, there are many kinds of levels of priest: top level, and middle level [he laughs], and lower level – it doesn’t matter. Anyway, just see them; and I think if you see those people, I think there is one particular look there, [which] you can see. And also they are very soft and kind, compassionate.
So very naturally, there is one look: the same and one look, and the same and one soft, compassionate mind. And also the same and one type of walking; something like that. Very naturally they are walking where? On one path. That is called practice, we say. And also anyone who walks on that one path, very naturally they can have the same result: straightforwardness, honesty, magnanimity, compassion, wisdom. Very naturally.
So that’s why I say that the ancient mirror is [a] co-existent place, where all sentient beings can do the same things, and can get the same things as buddhas and ancestors. That’s why we say “mind to mind”; we transmit dharma “mind to mind”. And also one of the analogies is to pour the water from one cup to another, exactly.
This is one point. Is that alright, the first one?
08:40
The second point is a little bit difficult. I [talked about it] yesterday. The second point of the ancient mirror is characterized to receive an I and you – your face, your look. You know, the I and you stand up right in front of the ancient mirror, which has no front, no back, no inside, no outside. A transparent mirror. […] Certain forms reflect in it, in the common sense. But that ancient mirror can accept your look and my look, if you stand up – immediately. So you stand up and I stand up in front of that kind of mirror, and then I can see your look, and you look [and] you can see my look. And the two faces stand up and come together.
And simultaneously, if you continue to look at your face and my face – [and] if I look at your face in the mirror – I think my look, my face, is penetrated into your heart. [It becomes] one. In other words, my reflection and your reflection become transparent, simultaneously.
If your reflection and my reflection are not transparent, I think that your reflection and my reflection are just dead. Because I and you are beings who are constantly moving, functioning, interpenetrated, [interconnected]. In order to do this, you cannot keep your frame, so-called “my look”. And I cannot maintain my frame, so-called five skandhas, Katagiri’s frame, no. If I am reflected in the ancient mirror, I immediately [become] transparent.
But in [the] common sense, it’s impossible to do this, because we have very strong customs to attach to the frame. If we don’t have a frame, we are restless, very restless. But in the spiritual life, I think you cannot keep your frame. So very naturally your frame, the frame of your five skandhas, are transparent, immediately.
For instance, I [often say], the piece of wood tied to a string and revolving, turning in a circle. And then at that time, what can you see? Can you see the piece of wood? What you can see?
People: Circle?
Katagiri Roshi: Circle! But in common sense, it’s impossible to make the one piece of wood [a] circle, because it’s [the] frame of the one piece of circle. But when [the] one piece of circle starts to function, it creates circle. So that means the frame of the piece of wood breaks into pieces. In other words, it’s emancipated, it’s liberated, originally.
So your five skandhas, your six senses, are liberated, originally. That’s why in Zenki, “The Whole Works,” Dōgen Zenji says, “All sentient beings are emancipation and total manifestation.”
So total manifestation is all things you can see through your eyes, ears… the form of trees you can see. But what are manifested beings you can see through your six senses? Dōgen Zenji [says], they are originally liberated. So liberated beings manifest themselves as a form. Do you understand?
That’s why if your life is reflected in the ancient mirror, you become transparent. It means you’re working; your life is really working with all sentient beings. If you always hold your frame, you never create a circle; you are nothing but a piece of wood.
A piece of wood is just a piece of wood, separate from all other beings. So even a piece of wood is not a separate being, but it is really piece of wood connected or interpenetrated with all sentient beings. That’s why if you turn that piece of wood, it creates a circle.
So very naturally if your body, [your] five skandhas are reflected in the mirror, you are transparent immediately, my look becomes penetrated into your heart.
You can experience this. For instance, when I was fourteen, my mother died. At that time I cried and cried. While I was crying, my mother is always in front of me. I never got the one, because always mother is far from [me]. The more I tried to get, to be one with my mother – my mother died already, so the more I realized that mother was going away from me. So that’s why it made me sad, really sad. So everyday, cry and cry. Finally, all of a sudden, my mother comes into my heart. And then I could stop crying at night all of a sudden. I don’t know why. But at that time I felt my mother came to my heart. Naturally, very smoothly.
So that’s why mother is reflected in the same mirror. I see my reflection. So my mother [and] my face become one.
Well, I think if you look at your friends, if you look at your parents – I think someday you [will] really appreciate your parents, or your brothers and sisters, or somebody, whoever. Even one person: if you really feel appreciation, if you really feel appreciated, at that time, of course that person is in front of you, but you can’t see the person in front of you. He or she must be alive in your heart. So very naturally, a very deep appreciation appears. It’s kind of [like] spring water coming up. You cannot stop it. Then, very naturally, you really appreciate him or her.
Well, someday. Someday you will experience like this.
Of course, you can appreciate somebody, you know, they’re always living somewhere, and then you can appreciate it. But that appreciation is not touching your heart. Very deep appreciation really touches your heart, and it’s coming up from your heart, wherever he or she lives, far from you or whatever… or [in] the other world. It’s really [appreciation].
So that’s why the second point of the ancient mirror is [that] you and I and all sentient beings are reflected in that mirror and [are] transparent, penetrated, and liberated, very naturally. Each single being is liberated by transparency.
20:15
The next moment, immediately from that transparent being, then your face is coming up clearly again, from that mirror. You know, once your life, your five skandhas [are] transparent, immediately your five skandhas are coming up again. That is called soku: creation. Your life; creative life. (Transcriber’s Note: soku might be 足 as in rin-en gusoku, a translation of mandala – see “Turning the Three Poisons into Wheels” – or perhaps 即 as in shiki soku ze kū, kū soku ze shiki: “form is itself emptiness; emptiness is itself form”.)
Originally you are not a different person: Katagiri is Katagiri, you are you. But when you are even once reflected in that mirror, you are transparent immediately, and coming up again. That is the frame of five skandhas. And then from those five skandhas, a kind of light is coming up. Okay? [He chuckles.] Light.
In other words, no mirrors. That’s why [there is] the third point I [talked about], the stories. When the clear mirror meets the clear mirror, the mirror breaks into [slivers], shatters. And then as you [see the clear] ancient mirror, including the reflection of the trees, birds, and insects, butterflies, birds, and you and I, Americans, Japanese – all the reflections break into [slivers].
What do I mean? Before you can see the mirror, before you can see the reflection of all sentient beings, there is already [the] great vast openness of the sky, [openness of] space there. So no gap between, no reflection there. No reflections, no partition there; no discrimination there. When you see the clear mirror exactly, you are the clear mirror and see the clear mirror, then all of a sudden the mirror [shatters]. At that time, it means before the clear mirror, before all the reflections, there is completely huge vast openness of sky or space. This is called akasha, we say in Sanskrit, which means a place where all sentient beings can live in peace, in harmony, without any obstruction. This is called akasha. In English it’s very difficult to translate it. Sometimes space or sky – but something more than space.
So this is the third point. At that time, in the third point, I think there is no particular mirror, so-called ancient mirror, [and no] particular reflection you have to see in the particular mirror. Already there is great space, a vast openness of space. Which means no discrimination, no partitions – nothing. So that means when you see the tree, the tree is already nothing but the ancient mirror. Because [there are] no partitions, no discrimination.
So from that, the tree is what? The tree is nothing but the renewed frame of the tree, coming from transparency, reflected in the mirror. So the tree is kind of [like a] new snake after [shedding] the skin. New frame, new snake. If your life is reflected in the mirror, even if you don’t see it, it’s already [that] your life is a new snake, new human life.
And then, at that time, you can really appreciate it, because it’s shining. So if you see the trees, they’re shining; the trees are shining. The trees are not the trees you usually see, separate from us; it is already we. We are trees; trees are we. So very naturally there is a total communication there.
That’s why Saint Francis talks about God, talks about human beings, with a bird. That person is really a visionary spirit. [He chuckles.] If you want to be a priest, you have to have this kind of a spirit. Otherwise, you cannot go any place, and you have to go to foreign countries, like Saint Francis, you know? Going to the different countries, and he didn’t know anybody, but he had to go and spread Christianity among different people in the different countries, with the different cultures. So culture, human beings, all are the same, anyway.
[…] This is the third point.
27:13
So very naturally, Zen Buddhism always emphasizes the way to live, in terms of this third point. That’s why, when you see the trees, or when you deal with your eating bowl, the eating bowl is not merely the eating bowl, it is nothing but the Buddha’s face. So that’s why you have to take best care of the eating bowl, [and] your five skandhas, your table – even though you don’t know.
If I say, “Even though you don’t know, please take care of it,” at that time you hesitate. Immediately you withdraw, because [you think], “If I do it, I [will] become blind.” Don’t you think so? Because you have already very strong prejudice, so-called “self-protection”. [He chuckles.] Very strong. So if I say so, you don’t accept it; you resist it. Because always you emphasize “privacy,” [he chuckles,] or the individual. If I say, “Please do it, even though you don’t understand it; receive it, and do it,” you don’t do it. You don’t want to do it.
So that’s why I try to explain it. The more I try to explain it, the more you seem to understand, but the more you are confused. [A couple people laugh.] So that’s why some day, somewhere, I have to say, “Keep your mouth shut; just do it!” [Laughter.] But immediately you don’t do it! Because you don’t want to do it. Then I start again to explain it! [Laughter.] How far are we going; to where? We are going to the confusion, finally. That’s why I stop it! I don’t know how often I have to do this. [He laughs.] Maybe my whole life. [Laughter.]
You know […] Avalokiteshvara’s cries? Do you understand Avalokiteshvara in Sanskrit? That is the “cries of observation of the world.” […] Avalokiteshvara observes the human world very deeply, closely. From the deep profound observation of the world, he or she can know… some cry, some sound. We don’t know what it is. This is just like a repetition there. Something compels us to repeat in a circle. We don’t want to do it, but we do it, constantly. But Avalokiteshvara always expresses her compassion over all sentient beings; that’s why he or she started to explain again: “Don’t cry. I am here. I am patient, so I can still have lots of rules to explain, to demonstrate how to live in this world.” And then the human beings start to listen to her. But finally, they don’t understand it. Finally, they still cry. [Apparently] they understand what she said, but in the deep level, still they are crying. Some confusion there. They don’t understand what it is. So still they are groping for, in the deep level.
So Avalokiteshvara knows pretty well. That’s why Avalokiteshvara says, “Just please, let’s walk together. Don’t talk.” And then on the way to walk, still people always want to be free from Avalokiteshvara: “I want to do something by myself.” So Avalokiteshvara lets you go. And then, confusion, and then coming back again, and listen to her […] explain it, and then finally Avalokiteshvara says, “Keep your mouth shut. Let’s walk.” And then again. The same thing going.
Who is Avalokiteshvara? You. Us. Exactly this body: this is Avalokiteshvara.
Who creates this Avalokiteshvara? It doesn’t matter whether this Avalokiteshvara is a real, existing being or not. It doesn’t matter. This is [that] Avalokiteshvara is exactly you, all of you!
So very naturally, we have to continually do it.
Uh… where are we?
Someone: Two mirrors.
Someone: Third point?
Someone: “The transparent mirror shatters.”
Someone: Akasha?
Someone: Confusion. [Lots of laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: … I forgot why I talked about Avalokiteshvara.
Someone: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, oh, right. Thank you. [He laughs.]
Yes. So, Zen teaching always tells you to deal with everyday life as a buddha. Even though you don’t understand, please do it – because that practice is exactly a way to reflect your five skandhas in that spiritual ancient mirror, simultaneously. As [well as doing] zazen – exactly the same. But we don’t understand this. That’s why Dōgen Zenji [writes] like this, and also we have to talk about this.
So a little bit you don’t understand exactly what the point of the Zen teaching is. Usually [according to books], Zen teaching is to find the solution of a koan, a Zen puzzle. I don’t think this is real. Or [in a book] you see “Zen is to attain enlightenment, this is the main purpose.” I don’t think this is Zen. It is a part of Zen, okay? [He laughs.] But not the whole.
Okay. Do you have a question?
35:45
Question: Hojo-san? Is looking in the ancient mirror, is that the same as Ocean Seal Samadhi?
Katagiri Roshi: Ocean Sealed Samadhi is… Yes, the ancient mirror is expressed in a different way. Ocean Seal Samadhi is how the ancient mirror works with all sentient beings; that is samadhi.
Samadhi is, what would you say, continuous activity. Continuous activity of akasha. Akasha means vast openness of existence. That is samadhi. And penetrating that continuous activity of existence, and interpenetration into all living beings. This is samadhi.
So that’s why we are living in the Ocean Seal Samadhi.
Questioner: So if you look in the mirror, does that penetrate into all living beings?
Katagiri Roshi: Right, that’s true.
So that’s why, even if you don’t understand, we try to find a way to reflect your five skandhas in that ancient mirror. Because we are already in the ancient mirror.
Questioner: And that’s the same as the jewel mirror?
Katagiri Roshi: That’s true.
Questioner: Jewel Mirror Awareness?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes.
There is an interesting koan here; the 79th case (of the Blue Cliff Record). Before sesshin, I was a little bit undecided to talk, what kind of topic I should talk about. [He laughs.] The first time I thought I should talk about this 79th case in that sesshin. But I changed my mind.
But anyway, I will give you this story:
A monk asked T’ou Tzu, “All sounds are the sounds of the Buddha – right or wrong?” T’ou Tzu said, “Right.” The monk said, “Teacher, doesn’t your asshole make farting sounds?” T’ou Tzu then hit him.
[Laughter.]
Again the monk asked, “Course words and subtle talk, all return to the primary meaning – right or wrong?” T’ou Tzu said, “Right.” The monk said, “Can I call you an ass, teacher?” T’ou Tzu then hit him.
[He laughs.] [Laughter.]
Someone: Is that what you wish you could do? [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: Understand this one. If you see your life reflected in the mirror, and coming up, how wonderful the ancient mirror is, you immediately [are] excited. And then all things become one. The sounds of the [he struggles for the word, and someone provides it]… farting. [Laughter.] Or wrong or right, or good or bad, all are the same things, all are buddhas. Can I call you stupid? Do you understand? This is always confusion.
So finally, you have to reach the third point. When you meet the clear mirror, what happens? When you see spiritual life clearly, what happens next? What should you do?
The clear mirror [shatters into many pieces]. Come back to every single aspect of human life. Getting up in the morning, washing your face, walking on the street, having a breakfast – those [shards], many many [shards] there. You have to come back to this. And then, your life is really rooted on earth. Otherwise, you become crazy – spaced out – by spiritual life. And then, if you are lucky, you are a mysterious person, that’s all. If you are unlucky, you are in a jail, or mental hospital. That happens always.
A teacher? A teacher, if he is lucky, well, he becomes a holy man. [He laughs.] Putting on a certain place, you know. Always people respect. If he is unlucky, he becomes a usual guy. [He laughs.]
But teacher, it doesn’t matter. [Poor] teacher.
Well, anyway, this koan always happens in our life. That’s why we have to see the three points, we have to consider those three points.
[…]
I mention sometimes the persimmon. You know the persimmon? I talk about the maturity of human life. I think maturity is just like the process of ripening persimmon. On the tree it becomes red: it’s ready to eat. It’s become ready – it’s still hard, but it tastes good. And the second maturity is, if you leave the persimmon on the tree, it becomes very soft! That is a very nice taste; it is really perfectly sweet. That is the second stage of maturity. [He chuckles.]
That is experiencing that, you know, your life reflected in the spiritual life, or spiritual mirror, so called ancient mirror, okay? Universe. And then we become…
[Tape change.]
… perfect maturity is, the persimmon drops on the ground, and all the guts come out. [He laughs.] This is a perfect maturity. Do you understand? It doesn’t stay on the branch. Naturally, it falls, and all the guts come out. [It is] never coming back to the branch. [It is] free; liberated.
So whatever happens… not whatever happens. Every single aspect of human life, okay? Your life is really alive. That is total, perfect maturity. This is the final goal of spiritual life you are seeking for.
Someone: Roshi? Do you mean that like a student and a teacher, when a student is mature, then they leave?
Katagiri Roshi: No. That is another topic. [Laughter.] Okay? Another question?
45:10
Question: Hojo-san, I’ve heard you speak of bodhisattva as a universal term, like everyone is a bodhisattva? But there’s also the understanding of the bodhisattva as someone who has relinquished full enlightenment for the present moment, in order to save all sentient beings.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Questioner: Is that the second stage of the persimmon on the tree?
Katagiri Roshi: No. Third stage.
Questioner: Third stage. Huh.
Katagiri Roshi: [Laughs.] Otherwise, you cannot do it. You know?
Questioner: Ah. Okay.
Katagiri Roshi: But still, the second stage, you can do. Why? Because the third stage is including second stage and first stage.
Questioner: Ah. But on the ground, that’s already Buddha.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes.
Questioner: So it’s the last stage on the tree, bodhisattva.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes.
46:24
Question: Hojo-san, is part of what you’re saying that when the persimmon falls on the ground and shatters, it fuses with the ground, it becomes a part of the ground that was back to earth. It becomes one with the ground?
Someone: When the persimmon falls on the ground and opens its guts, then very quickly it becomes part of the ground. It becomes compost.
Katagiri Roshi: No. It’s every single piece stands up again and shoots.
Someone: Like a new plant growing?
Katagiri Roshi: Not going.
Someone: Not growing out of the persimmon?
Katagiri Roshi: So […] your life really re-arrived.
####
Question: Hojo-san? When the persimmon breaks, that’s like the mirror shattering?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. That’s true.
Questioner: When two forms reflect, that’s when the mirror disintegrates.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Questioner: That disintegration, is that also a form?
Katagiri Roshi: Form, yes. You mean seeing the form in the mirror?
Disintegrate, what would that be?
Questioner: Shatter. That’s a form too, the shattering?
Katagiri Roshi: Uh, yes, but it is completely liberated form. Liberated form means… how can I say? Mature. If you become mature. No, that’s not a good example. How can I say?
… Well, just like the body. Master of the judo, master of the football player. In the beginning, you have to continually train your body. Then if you become mature as a football player or judo player. Your five skandhas, this body, is a frame of a five skandhas which seems to be rigid. But, if you become mature, it’s not rigid. It’s always the frame, the same body, but when you play judo, your body becomes [like] a bow, very soft.
So, each fragment seems to be same as before. But, if you are reflected in the mirror and experience deeply something, then you are liberated. Transformed. Fragment.
So you can deal with your five skandhas in a different way, beyond your consciousness. Is that okay? That’s why your life re-arrives. That is called transformation, we say: spiritual transformation. Turn [over] your life; turn [over] a new leaf. Something like that.
Okay? Is that clear?
Someone: No.
Katagiri Roshi: No? Can anyone say something about it?
Someone: I was going to say, a life functioning, rather than a life kind of caught by our idea…
Katagiri Roshi: I think that they constantly… I think before you come to the Zen center, before you do zazen, I think, look at your life in the past – you know, how often we took care of everything carelessly. But after coming to the Zen center and sitting zazen, and listening to the Buddha’s teaching, and even though you don’t understand the real meaning of Buddha’s teachings, still something penetrated your life. So, even though you don’t like to listen, the teachings so-called, “Take care of microphone with your sincere heart,” as well as taking care of your life, exactly. Always listening to this one, very naturally, unconsciously or consciously, you can deal with your book, and something like that. You can wrap the book with a wrapping cloth, and hold it with a sincere heart.
This is a quite different life. You don’t know, actually. But, your everyday life is completely different.
So before you come to the Zen center, look at your life, anyway. Very naturally a different attitude toward your life, toward others’ life. You can see.
And then, maturity means, you have to do it, you know, day by day. So, take care of your book, your toilet paper, and your boots, and your pants, et cetera, every day with a sincere heart. That is called maturity. Maturity is not talking about concept. Maturity is a way to demonstrate your life, based on that ancient mirror. You have to demonstrate.
So that’s why, how can you demonstrate? I try to demonstrate. When you demonstrate, your life perhaps can be exactly reflected in that ancient mirror, beyond your speculation.
That’s why I tell you. So, very naturally you do it. This is called maturity.
Each fragment is really encompassed by this maturity. So, very naturally, different way of life coming up.
Is that clear?
Question: Hojo-san? According to you, how freedom, maturity and freedom are the same things?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, almost the same things.
Question: Almost?
Katagiri Roshi: Almost. The definition of freedom is different from maturity. Maturity is more paying attention to the quality of living life, aliveness in life. Liberation or freedom is a kind of pretty vast meaning. General. General attitude towards human life, okay? Liberation, freedom.
You know freedom or liberation, but you don’t know how to live in liberation. In the world of freedom, we don’t know. That’s why we need maturity. We have to make our life mature. Then, maturity makes your life, causes your life to live in the world of liberation. Is that clear?
Questioner: [Japanese phrase] “vast open space.” In this vast open space, we have freedom, or maturity.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure, already.
Questioner: The definition of freedom: is it a kind of maturity? More bigger?
Katagiri Roshi: A kind of what?
Questioner: A kind of maturity.
Katagiri Roshi: No. Liberation is actually something you should accept totally. [He laughs.] Because you are liberated. So you should totally accept and demonstrate your life, in the world of liberation. And then, maturity appears. By demonstration; living in the liberation.
So liberation is not something you try to discuss after discussion. It’s not something you should decide. You cannot get into the liberation by your decisions. Liberation is. [He laughs.] You have to be. That is liberation.
Do you understand? That’s why Buddha says, “We are Buddha.”
But we always try to decide to be liberated. [He laughs.] It’s impossible.
58:17
Question: I wanted to say what I’m thinking about; I don’t know if I have a question or not. But it seems to me that every time you do zazen, or every time we listen to you, that we disintegrate a little bit, that we “shatter” a little bit. And that then we put ourselves back together again. And that we put ourselves back together again a little bit differently from the way we had been before. And maybe that’s what maturity comes from?
Katagiri Roshi: Maybe so.
Questioner: … Putting ourself back to together differently, time after time.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. Sure. Yes.
59:10
Questioner: Hojo-san, can I ask again about these three points? The topic that all these three points refer to is the ancient mirror. Is that right?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hm.
Questioner: So what do we mean by the “ancient mirror” in general terms?
Katagiri Roshi: Truth.
Questioner: Truth. Okay. So this kind of the ultimate, we’re talking about the ultimate now, and whatever, in terms of the metaphor of an ancient mirror. Right?
Katagiri Roshi: Uh-huh.
Questioner: Okay. And Dōgen makes three points. The first point is… that all beings are in this mirror?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hm.
Questioner: Okay. The second point…
Katagiri Roshi: That the truth is ancient mirror – what that place is like. That is the first point.
Questioner: What that place is like.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. That’s why I say it is a co-existent place. Is that clear? Co-existent place. It means a place where all beings co-exist.
Questioner: Okay. So then the first point is saying something about the ancient mirror, and the thing that it says about the ancient mirror is that all beings exist together there.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Questioner: Okay. The second point… is what? All beings interpenetrate?
Katagiri Roshi: Interpenetrate, yes. So each frame of your five skandhas never remains in the certain frame.
Questioner: Okay. No frame…
Katagiri Roshi: No frame. So that’s why I say transparent. That means transformed; you are transformed. Five skandhas immediately transformed. And your frames disappear and create another form. Re-form, re-form, re-form. Re-formation? Reform, reform, exactly. Reform, the five skandhas. That is the second. Transformation.
Questioner: Right. And the third point is that the forms come up again?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. That is that story, through that story.
We shouldn’t forget that third one. Otherwise you cannot take care of your life, in so-called free freedom. You never experience freedom, perfect freedom. You cannot live in a peaceful world. You cannot build up a peaceful world if you forget the third point. Whatever reason you have, even though your motivation spiritually is good, the result is a little bit confused.
Like the human world. Look at the human world. The first motivation is pretty good, to believe something, to help. In order to help all sentient beings, we believe this and that, etc. Finally, under that beautiful faith… we fight. That always happens in the world. Don’t you think so?
That’s why constantly you have to make your mind and body calm down and be. Reflect your body experience once more again in that mirror, and break into the shatters. And then come back, exactly everyday life, with all sentient beings.
In other words, you have to demonstrate, you have to show, actually, practically, peaceful life. If you experience spiritual life reflected in that ancient mirror, you have to demonstrate, actually. It’s not the philosophical fascination or psychological fascination through the words. No. It’s very concrete, human life.
Someone: So the way to open your heart is through the transformation?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure, that’s true. Yes, that’s true.
Someone: So anyway, Avalokiteshvara?
Katagiri Roshi: Avalokiteshvara.