The Awakening of Faith – Talk 38
May 2, 1986 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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This transcript is in draft stage.
0:00
Katagiri Roshi: … Last time we studied page 63 and page 64. From this paper, I think the last one, “that which is not yet united with suchness,” and also “that which is already united with suchness.”
This is a very important point in this textbook. A state of existence which is [not] united with truth, and also the state of existence which is already united with truth. We try to understand in terms of practitioners, how the truth is connected with our lives.
The first one, “that which is not yet united with truth, suchness,” means in terms of faith, how the truth is connected with our lives. So, united, in unison with the truth, or not in unison with the truth. I think in this textbook it uses very often “in unison with” or “in harmony with” or sometimes “related with.” Or here it says “united with.” So, we have to think about the “united with” or “not united with,” or “in harmony with” or “not in harmony with.”
In terms of faith, basically, truth is one. So from this point, truth is already with us. So from this point, truth is “in harmony with.” But in terms of faith, it’s not exactly, truth is working with us. Because, in terms of the truth, practitioner always is trying to approach to the truth with consciousness and mind. So, consciousness and mind still create a small gap between. That is the point this book mentions in terms of faith.
And also, with consciousness, with mind, we cannot approach exactly, we cannot touch exactly, the truth as it is. So, still there is a gap between. That is the point this book mentions.
Because mind is manas, the very basis of ego-consciousness. And consciousness is ego-consciousness. So, with the mind, so-called basis of ego-consciousness, and also consciousness, so-called ego-consciousness, already we created deluded thoughts. In other words, created dualistic world.
So, with the dualistic sense, it’s very difficult to understand or to touch the truth. But […] there is a strength in mind, in your lives – that is faith. So, with faith, we can continue to practice, we can continue to move toward the truth. This is the point it mentions.
So, from this point, the truth is not the sphere which is involved in mind or consciousness. The basis of ego-consciousness, or ego-consciousness. So, very naturally, there is a small gap between. But the basis of the ego-consciousness, so-called mind, in Sanskrit manas, it is very basis, it is a basis of ego-consciousness. So, it’s very difficult to say it is consciousness or it is not consciousness. So, that basis of ego-consciousness is pretty close to the suchness or the truth. But it’s still the dualistic world. Still mind is moving. But very slightly, very minutely.
So, very naturally, the basis of the ego-consciousness [is] always moving very minutely, connected with the the six consciousnesses, and also the truth.
So, I think if you come to the basis of the ego-consciousness, there is nothing to do, for us. It’s moving very minutely; there is no chance for us to get into it by our consciousness. There is no technique to do it, to get into that world, because very minutely. And also it is moving but it’s very minutely vibrating, so it’s very close to the truth, which is still. So, we don’t know how to do it.
So, important point is, you cannot think of it, you cannot get into it with the consciousness. So, all we can do is, we can act in harmony with … the truth, which is stillness.
So, stillness is stop. Stop means just practice. Stop means stability, steadfast. That is stop.
I think the Buddha mentions all sentient beings attain enlightenment; simultaneously when he attains enlightenment, all sentient beings become Buddha. So, we have to stop there. We have to stop there. That is called stop.
In other words, if you do gassho, you become, your mind has to work in harmony with the truth. [That] means you must be Buddha in the realm of gassho, which is steadfast, without looking around, without moving here and there. So, all you have to do is, practically, you have to actualize, you have to manifest yourself in gassho with steadfastness, as a gassho. That is a buddha, we say, the truth. Your body and mind can act in harmony with the truth.
But, if your mind even slightly moves, you cannot do it. Because, you don’t know. Your consciousness, your mind, cannot get it. So, your mind, your consciousness has to stop.
That’s why in zazen, the Fukanzazengi, Dogen Zenji mentions, your consciousness, your thoughts, your mind must be stopped. You have to throw away all worldly affairs, et cetera. You have to exactly stop in zazen. So, that is [the] unique way to participate in the sphere in harmony with the truth.
But, in terms of faith, it’s very difficult to exactly participate or touch the truth. So, next, what you can do is, in terms of the practice itself, you can participate, you can be engaged in the sphere which […] your life, your mind, your consciousness are in harmony with the truth. So, only in terms of the true practice, practitioners can get into.
So, that is so-called “that which is already united with the truth.”
So, we call [that] hōriki – “dharma power” or “dharma strength.” In terms of dharma strength or dharma power, or in plain words, maybe “spiritual power.” But spiritual power is not exactly dharma power. Spiritual means only the spiritual side, aspect of the human life, but dharma power means including spiritual aspect of life and also material aspect of life. Including all. They both work together and create the life, the universal life, that is dharma power. That is called sambhogakaya buddha, we say.
So, with this body and mind, our life becomes acting in harmony with the truth. We don’t know what it is, but it is called dharma power, we say. In terms of dharma power or dharma strength, we can really act, we can be acting in harmony with the truth, or in unison with the truth.
That’s why in this book it says, “When [the] one world of reality is yet to be realized, the [mind is mutable] and is not in perfect unity [with suchness].” Or it says, “[Suchness is empty] because from the beginning it has never been related to any defiled states of existence, … and it has nothing to do with thoughts conceived by a deluded mind.” This is page 34 (Part 3, Chapter 1, “The Mind in Terms of the Absolute”). And also on page 34 it says, “It is truly non-empty for its essence itself is endowed with undefiled and excellent qualities.”
So, truth is always with us, but our act is not exactly in harmony with the truth. So, our delusion, our samsaric world, mind, and consciousness, all are on the basis of truth. But in terms of faith, the truth, our consciousness, our mind, or our life cannot act in harmony with the truth. So, a little gap there. In other words, you can talk about the sphere of the truth, you can talk in words, with your thoughts, you can talk, you can speak, but as a whole your life doesn’t work, your life doesn’t act exactly in harmony with. So, there is, in other words, the double life there. Do you understand?
But most people believe if you speak about truth, it touches your heart, you really believe, trust, he is a saint. But I don’t think so.
So, a real saint, or the Buddha, must be the person who can speak in a word, and mouth, and body, and mind, and the whole of his life can act in harmony with the truth.
Do you understand? This is a very important point you have to take into account.
So, most people become very excited if you talk about the truth, if you listen to wonderful speech. We believe he is great in peace, like a saint. But it is not. Still there is a gap. His total act, total life does not exactly in harmony with. In other words, active side of his life is still gap. So, there is a double life. In the front, his life is wonderful, but in the back side, it doesn’t work. Do you understand?
So, that’s why we have to be […] careful to take care of your life practically. Not only the speech, talk about, manifest your life in words, in thoughts, but also you have to act every day.
That is one important point. One more thing is … to think about the basis of ego-consciousness, so-called ignorance. We say mind, but this is manas. So manas is a kind of basic energy of creating the samsaric world. This is very interesting for us. Ignorance is, or the basis of ego-consciousness is the basic energy of creating the samsaric world, or deluded thoughts beyond your senses. Because it’s beginningless. You cannot trace back to from where it comes. It’s beginningless. There is no chance to research from where it comes.
So, from this point, the basis of ego-consciousness is separate from the truth. So, in terms of this point of view, I think the basis of ego-consciousness is not united, or not in harmony with the truth. But on the other hand, it is united. United means its base is the truth.
So, very naturally, its base is the truth, but on the other hand, from this point, I think the truth and basis of ego-consciousness is a very close relation here. But on the other hand, there is a gap. Spiritually, it’s a big gap. It’s very difficult to get into the truth. So, there is no chance to know what the truth is. No matter how long you try to research or study with the intellectual, science et cetera, it’s very difficult to know what the truth is.
So, very naturally, practically, in terms of practice itself, we can have a chance to participate in […] the basis of ego-consciousness, which is moving very minutely. “Very minutely” means, minute vibration is almost very close to the sphere of the suchness. So “very close” means that the truth and the basis of ego consciousness is almost one. Almost one. In terms of intellectual sense, almost one, but actually it’s one.
But our consciousness is constantly working, that’s why there is always a small gap between. So, all we can do is, practically, we can participate in the basis of ego-consciousness. That is almost stop. Stop working.
So, the idea of being in harmony with, or being not in harmony with – I think both ideas always exist simultaneously in the realm of the practice itself. If you participate in the really basis of ego-consciousness, there is a separation between the truth and the basis of ego-consciousness, but there is a one.
If you stop your mind moving, I think very naturally you can be in harmony with the truth. But simultaneously, the basis of ego-consciousness doesn’t have a chance to know what the truth is. That’s why not in harmony with the truth. But if you participate, if you stop moving – well, it’s exactly, you can see the basis of ego-consciousness, which is on the basis of ego-consciousness. So, it’s exactly. But on the other hand, if you do it, if you participate in a state of being in harmony with the truth, you don’t know. There is no chance to know what the truth is with your consciousness – with the mind, with the consciousness. So, very naturally there is a two state of being in harmony with and not in harmony with the truth.
So, very naturally, […] mind, or the basis of the ego-consciousness, is going by itself. There is nothing to do. Going by itself.
So, there is no chance to save it. So, it’s going. But it is based, grounded with the truth.
So, ignorance is going by itself. Which is separate from the truth, but not exactly separate. The truth is always influencing the ignorance world. But ignorance itself is constantly going by itself.
So, truth is going by itself and ignorance is going by itself, but it’s working together.
So, that is the idea of being in harmony with and also not being in harmony with.
Okay. Do you have some questions about this?
30:13
Question: What would be the consequences of thinking of the ego-consciousness as not being based in the truth?
Katagiri Roshi: It’s always based on the truth.
Questioner: Right, but [if you] think of it as not being based in the truth…
Katagiri Roshi: Because you don’t know, the consciousness and the mind doesn’t have any chance to know it, because it’s deluded.
Questioner: [Got it.]
Katagiri Roshi: Deluded means the mind is moving. But the truth is a sphere which is non-dualistic, non-discriminating. So, non-discriminating sphere is completely beyond mind or consciousness.
Questioner: So very naturally, you have to say that consciousness is based on truth.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
31:43
Question: Hojo-san? […] can’t know the truth, but at the same time, the consciousness […]
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, in terms of our understanding with the thoughts, with the mind, anyway, both are going something like that. But actually, the two things don’t go in parallel. They’re working together. But we always try to think of it, try to think how both are working together, how both are working in harmony with each other. But actually there is no chance to know what the truth is.
But when your mind acts, when your life acts, [that] means as a whole, your whole personality acts in harmony with the truth – that is practice. That is exactly practice itself. At that time, you are exactly in harmony with the truth, but your consciousness never knows what the truth is.
Questioner: Is your mind moving then? …
Katagiri Roshi: Our mind is moving, but it doesn’t bother us. So that’s why mind becomes still. But still, mind is moving. Mind is moving, but it’s still, very still. But moving of mind in that sphere doesn’t bother. It’s always functioning. Consciousness always functioning, but it doesn’t bother.
So you can keep going – in action, in behavior, in activities.
Any other question?
35:06
Question: Hojo-san? At this point of being united with suchness, or at the point of stop, you say …
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm?
Questioner: … is the experience of anybody the same?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, if you do that, anybody. But you how much you can realize the total picture of the stop. More or less we stop – stop in realm of the total universe. We stop. As long as we are alive, we are living every day. So everyone can do in the same things. But still, in terms of individual personality, there is a difference.
Questioner: So are you saying there’s degrees as to how much… it’s a question of degree, how much a person…
Katagiri Roshi: [Yes.] That’s true.
Someone: [Inaudible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Degree of intention.
Someone: In terms of frequency of stopping, the amount of attention you give to it, or the quality of stopping, when you talk about degree?
Katagiri Roshi: Degree of intention means… what would you say? [He chuckles.] Anybody has a comment on this?
Someone: … have faith …
Katagiri Roshi: It’s not clear what you say, would you say again?
Someone: I’m not sure if I meant degree of intention. I think maybe it’s the same, but I was thinking of the degree of realizing stop. […] degree to which one is united with suchness.
Someone: You seem to be saying that even though someone is united with suchness, still there is a difference, there is a matter of depth or something.
Katagiri Roshi: Uh… Do you understand what he says?
Someone: … so that no matter how much we work, individually you’ll always know more than I do. […]
Someone: [inaudible] I was thinking in terms of transmission, or exchange between cultures. And if it’s different for everybody […]
Someone: Do we all arrive at the same place? Or because of ego, personality, culture, is the place slightly different?
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, that’s the point, I see.
I think cultural difference is kind of the… what would you say… the dualistic world fabricated by the vibration of consciousness. So already you cannot understand exactly where you are, what you are doing, exactly. In harmony with the truth, so you don’t know, there is no chance. So all you can do is be free from that dualistic world fabricated by vibration of consciousness. Anyway, all you have to do is practice. Your practice must be completely undefiled. That is called stop. I say stop.
So, not degree, you mention. Maybe quality. Quality of practice. Not degree of intention, quality of practice. So how much you can take care of, how much you can participate in practice itself. In undefiledness. But constantly, mind is moving, right in the midst of the practice, in motion, anyway. So very naturally, if you stand in the sphere of the dualistic world fabricated by moving of the mind, very naturally you can think difference – different cultures, different forms, different lifestyles. So very naturally there is a lot of argument, discussions, et cetera. So you never know what the truth is. So you are going separate, going to a different world.
So very naturally, everyone experiences the same things, so-called called the truth, et cetera. So you have to be free from that world and then come back to this oneness, one world. That is what? This is just undefiled practice. You have to participate in undefiled practice.
And then, in terms of this undefiled practice, you can see the dualistic world, what you can create – different cultures, different lifestyles, different personalities – as clear as you can. [Clearer] than before. So very naturally you can create a peaceful world. But if you don’t do that, very naturally you are going in a different way – the samsaric world, far from the truth. So that is our usual world. So argument, fighting, et cetera. The more you go far from that oneness, one world, very naturally you create more and more, lots of troubles. So we need more discussion, we need more argument, we need more technique, we need more understanding, et cetera. But that way enables us to go far and far from the oneness.
Is that okay?
Questioner: I think so. So another way to ask my question is, is the experience of perfect undefiled practice the same for you and somebody else? And you’re saying yes, that it is…
[Tape change.]
Someone: … undefiled state is, consciousness is moving but you are not bothered by it. […]
Katagiri Roshi: No, nothing to bother.
45:14
Question: I don’t understand that. Is consciousness moving, or is consciousness just merged?
Katagiri Roshi: Consciousness merged.
Questioner: Not separated.
Katagiri Roshi: Not separate.
In other words […] merged means consciousness acts in harmony with the truth.
#### 46:10
Question: Saying that two people have the same experience of undefiled practice. Is that a statement based on faith? Is it not? Because there doesn’t seem to be any way that that could be verified. Because like you said, once we’re in the realm of experience, then there is difference.
Katagiri Roshi: Their life is based on something more than faith. Faith is there, but more than faith – that is dharma strength. In other words, the functioning of the whole personality, including past, present and future. We can say the whole personality, strength of the whole personality. That is dharma power. It’s not spiritual power, it’s not physical power. So I don’t know how to say. So I say, maybe strength of one’s whole personality.
I don’t know what’s the appropriate term. In the Buddhist term we say sambhogakaya buddha. You cannot pin down, it is dharmakaya, it is truth. You cannot say either, but it’s there. On the other hand, […] the human body, but you cannot say human body. But it is there.
So, working together. How? You can see right in the middle of undefiled practice itself. That is sambhogakaya, we say sambhogakaya buddha. So it’s something more than faith. More than faith. But faith is always there.
Is that alright?
Someone: I can’t figure it out [laughs].
Katagiri Roshi: Two persons who experiences the same things is based on the faith? That’s what you mean?
Questioner: Well, from what I understand is, you can’t prove that your experience is the same. Like my experience is the same as Bob’s experience inside. There’s no way…
Katagiri Roshi: It’s not experience. [It’s] something more than experience. It’s practice itself. Practice in motion.
In other words, you are practicing from moment to moment. That is proof. That is a great proof. Not experience, not ideas, not understanding. So, you have to act.
For instance, I understand gassho, my gassho, and I understand your gassho, he understands his gassho, and my gassho. This is understanding more. But never know, never create a peaceful world. Still his gassho, my gassho is separate. But real gassho and the peaceful world is what? How can we do it? As one. What is that?
Someone: Practice itself.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes! Practice itself. How? Can you practice? With what?
With consciousness, or mind?
No, you must be free from mind and consciousness. Exactly you have to be in harmony with the practice itself, exactly. And then, very naturally, there is a peaceful world.
But there is no chance for the mind and consciousness to know what the peace is. Because real peace is something going, constantly.
52:03
Question: Hojo-san? It sounds then as if there is really no room for human experience within stop. Is that true?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
If a human being exactly realizes, there is no chance for us to stop consciousness, it’s really great. It’s really great because you can stop it. [He laughs.] Do you understand?
Questioner: I missed something there. Would you repeat that?
Katagiri Roshi: You cannot be blind, you cannot participate in moving of the mind constantly, recklessly. If you see the state of existence, which we cannot have any chance to stop the mind moving. That’s what you mean?
You mentioned that we don’t have any chance to stop the mind?
Questioner: No, it seems to me that within the realm of stop, there is no room for human experience.
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, I see.
Human experience is there. But if you say human experience, I think the human beings already participate in the dualistic world. But real experience [is] there, pure sense of experience [is] there. That is pretty deep.
Questioner: Yeah, that’s kind of deeper than what we call human experience.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, yes, that’s true.
Questioner: So in terms of what we keep talking about as all the qualities or experience and so forth, this is all gone in that realm. Isn’t that true?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, but as long as we can have a very deep and pure sense of experience, I think it is very difficult for us to explain it. That’s why there is a unique way of explaining or talking about the pure sense of experience through usual experience. So we say we don’t have any experience. But on the other hand, we experience. In a deep sense, you touch the truth, you touch the depths of human mind, human existence. So very naturally there is a very pure and deep experience there. But it’s very difficult to say what it is. So very naturally, we try to say about it through usual sense of experience. But it is already something different from pure sense of experience. Do you understand?
Questioner: Yes, I do.
Katagiri Roshi: So the moment when you start to talk about the truth or something, it’s already dualistic. Because you are involved in naturally, you know, the world of ideas and thoughts. So very naturally [it is] something different from the truth.