Principles of Practice, Talk 2: Bodhicitta
March 20, 1986 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
0:00
Katagiri Roshi: Yesterday I [talked about] the purpose of the practice, or the purpose of spiritual life. The purpose of spiritual life is to actualize sanzen gakudō, which means to surrender one’s body and mind to tranquility. Tranquility means the Way; to surrender one’s body and mind to tranquility is to study or to learn the Way.
The Way manifests in two ways. One is it manifests itself as the absolute – in other words, the ultimate identity of existence, the absolute self – which is completely, absolutely tranquil, still. But it is not something still [like] stagnant water; it is always active. So the Way appears as every aspect of everydayness. Tranquility penetrates every aspect of everydayness. That is the Way.
That is the purpose of practice – the purpose of spiritual life, we usually say.
So today I would like to talk about what attitude we should take to the practice, so-called sanzen gakudō.
Yesterday I mentioned that sanzen usually is translated as “the practice,” but originally [in Japanese] sanzen is something more than “the practice.” I mentioned sanzen is to “surrender yourself, to surrender your body and mind” to something: to zen, to tranquility. This is sanzen.
So I would like to talk about what attitude we should take to the practice of this kind, in terms of three points. One is bodhicitta, bodhi-mind. The second is faith. Third is direct transmission of the teaching – direct touch of dharma.
So let me [talk about] bodhicitta today.
05:10
In Gakudō-yōjinshū, “Points to Watch in the Buddhist Training,” page 48 of the book Zen Master Dogen, he said first of all:
The Bodhi-mind is known by many names; but they all refer to the One Mind of the Buddha. The Venerable Nagarjuna said, “The mind that sees into the flux of arising and decaying and recognizes the transient nature of the world is also known as the Bodhi-mind.” Why, then, is temporary dependence on this mind called the Bodhi-mind? When the transient nature of the world is recognized, the ordinary selfish mind does not arise; neither does the mind that seeks for fame and profit.
(From Zen Master Dogen: An Introduction with Selected Writings, translated by Yuho Yokoi with Daizen Victoria.)
This is number one of the Gakudō-yōjinshū; the title is “The Need to Awaken to the Bodhi-Mind,” or to arouse bodhi-mind.
So here are three points. First of all, you have to arouse the bodhi-mind. In order to arouse the bodhi-mind you have to have the insight of impermanence; you have to [see into impermanence]. And if you [see into] the truth of impermanence, you naturally are free from selfish mind.
There are three points there: arousing bodhi-mind; the insight of impermanence; and forsaking the selfish mind.
There is a problem, that it is difficult for us to see [clearly the] relation between bodhicitta – arousing bodhi-mind – and the insight of impermanence. [In other words,] why we have to practice the insight of impermanence in order to awaken the bodhi-mind – it’s a little bit difficult for us to see that point. And also, [that] if you realize impermanence, naturally you can be free from egoism – this is also a little difficult to understand. So I want to [explain] as best as I can about this point.
Bodhicitta is the short word [for] the mind of anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in the Prajnaparamita Sutra. We say “the complete, perfect, supreme enlightenment”: that is a translation from anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in Sanskrit. Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi is perfect, complete, supreme enlightenment; that means a state of perfect enlightened being. Trees, birds, all sentient beings, all are in the state of perfect enlightened being. In other words, all are enlightened being. According to the Buddha Shakyamuni’s teaching, all are Buddha.
So “arousing the bodhi-mind” means arousing or awakening to the enlightened being, awakening to the truth that all are in the state of enlightened being, or, awaken to the truth that all are Buddha. This is to arouse the bodhi-mind or to awaken to the bodhi-mind.
That’s why Dogen Zenji also says, “The bodhi-mind is known by many names but they all refer to the one-mind of the Buddha.” So “one-mind of the Buddha.” The one-mind of the Buddha means the Buddha only.
The [word] bodhicitta – citta is the mind, but [this] mind is not individual mind, this mind is universal mind, universal life, open to all kinds of beings. That is called Mind, with a capital M! This is the Mind of the bodhi-mind. And this mind is exactly a state of enlightenment, because this mind is only one-mind, penetrating to all sentient beings. So this is one-mind.
So that one-mind is, when you realize it, called Buddha. So, the one-mind of the Buddha.
So bodhi-mind is to realize the one-mind of the Buddha. In other words, we have to realize the truth that all are Buddha.
14:28
Usually bodhi-mind is translated in English [as] “the way-seeking mind.”
I think way-seeking mind means kind of aspiration for seeking something… aspiration for the big mind. That is the way-seeking mind. The aspiration for the Way, or aspiration for the Big Mind. So constantly we try to keep this aspiration for the Big Mind and the Way – based on the truth [that] all are Buddha.
In the Record of Things Heard, Book 2, Number 14, Dogen Zenji [talks] about Bodhicitta:
“First is only that the aspiration of joyful longing be earnest. For example, suppose a person has a conscious desire to steal a precious jewel, a desire to defeat a powerful enemy, or a desire to embrace a distinguished beauty; while traveling, abiding, sitting and reclining, in the midst of affairs as they pass, though various different events come up, he goes along seeking an opening, his mind occupied [with his quest]…”
(From Record of Things Heard: From the Treasury of the Eye of the True Teaching, translated by Thomas Cleary.)
So to arouse bodhi-mind is [that] you must be continually mindful of the truth that we are Buddha. Under all circumstances – walking, sitting, standing, reading, wherever you may go, or whatever kind of situation occurs in your life, favorable situation or unfavorable condition – we have to continually be mindful of this truth that we all are Buddha. “We” doesn’t mean only human beings. All are Buddha.
That is pretty difficult for us. Because we can practice the truth we are Buddha when we are under favorable conditions, but it’s very difficult for us to practice bodhi-mind under unfavorable conditions. But Dogen Zenji [says] that constantly we have to do it.
This is not only the Buddhist practice: whatever you do, if you are really seriously seeking for something. Just like this example Dogen Zenji mentions, if you try to steal a jewel or a big amount of money from the bank. All day you have to think of it: how to steal it. So your life is completely occupied: money, jewel – constantly.
That’s Dogen Zenji says, “Though various different events come up, he goes along seeking an opening, his mind occupied with his quest.” This is called arousing the bodhi-mind.
Then Dogen Zenji says next:
“In this way, when the aspiration to seek the Way has become sincere, either during the period of sole concentration on sitting, or when dealing with illustrative examples of the people of olden times, or when meeting the teacher, when one acts with true aspiration, though [his aim] be high he can hit it, though it be deep he can fish it out.”
And also Dogen Zenji says:
“With this mind so forcefully earnest, there can be no failure of attainment.”
So that is bodhi-mind. Constantly you have to be mindful of this truth, we are Buddha, under all circumstances.
This is called, according to the Vimalakirti Sutra, the straightforward mind. Robert Thurman translated that “straightforward mind” as the positive thought. Very positive – direct. Constantly, directly, there is a strong, steadfast aspiration for seeking for the truth, toward which your effort is directed constantly. Your effort should be directed toward the truth [that] we are Buddha, under all circumstances, without swaying away to the right or to the left, constantly aiming at that truth. That is positive thought. That is called straightforward mind in Chinese, we say, but in [a] Tibetan textbook he translates it as positive thought. Yes, it is positive thought, because your effort should be directed straightly, without going zig-zag. Straightly you have to aim at that one, under all circumstances. This is so-called straightforward mind.
So in the Vimalakirti Sutra, or in general Buddhism, we usually use bodhicitta as well as “direct, straightforward mind” – almost the same meaning. So Bodhicitta is [to] constantly direct our mind, our bodies, toward the truth [that] we are Buddha. It’s not so easy… but we have to do it. This is the purpose of the practice, the purpose of the spiritual life.
But when we face difficulties, very naturally we forget this, because it is pretty easy for us to burn out – to burn our emotions, to be very emotional, very critical, but without insight of the truth.
So that’s why it’s not so easy, it’s not so easy. Intellectually even though we understand the truth, we are Buddha, actually it’s very difficult to practice, because emotions, our habitual customs cannot accept straightly. So always we make some problem under unfavorable conditions. But if you want to practice, if you want to accomplish the purpose of spiritual life, constantly we have to seek for this one.
So the spiritual world is quite different from the usual world. Whatever happens in the spiritual world, we try to keep all things in peace and harmony, instead of stirred up. But in the usual world, we stir [things] up. In other words, “Open it, open everything. If you don’t feel [good], scream it. If you like it, express your joy, pleasure.” Something like that. It’s alright to open everything, but I don’t think it is a perfect way of living in peace. Very naturally if you do it, in many ways we stir up our lives and others’ lives, so it’s very difficult to keep all in peace and harmony.
But in the spiritual world, we try to keep all things in peace and harmony. That’s pretty hard. It’s not so easy. That’s why every day we have to continually practice. [We have] to practice this on an everyday basis.
28:00
Next, I think in order to arouse or awaken to the bodhi-mind, Dogen Zenji says we have to awaken [to impermanence], we have to [have insight into] impermanence – the truth [of] how transient the world is, how fragile human life is.
In Number 14 of Book 2 [of Record of Things Heard], Dogen Zenji also says:
And to arouse this determination, it is necessary to earnestly contemplate the impermanence of the world.
“This determination” is to continue to practice arousing bodhi-mind, arousing the truth we are Buddha. So, “it is necessary to earnestly contemplate the impermanence of the world.” …
“This task is not something which is to be considered as a temporarily prescribed method of contemplation. And it is not that you should invent something nonexistent to think about. It is the truth in reality right before our eyes.”
This is the insight of impermanence. It’s not an idea we can try to think of. There is no particular pattern we can be mindful of, so-called impermanence. No. Impermanence is something real, right in front of you. In other words, your body’s so-called five skandhas are nothing but impermanent. [They are] transient.
Still we can see impermanence objectively: five skandhas. We understand intellectually. But we don’t touch directly how impermanent each of the five skandhas are. We don’t. We are always looking at impermanence objectively.
So that’s why Dogen Zenji says, “This task is not something which is to be considered as a temporarily described method of contemplation. It is not that you should invent something non-existent to think about. It is the truth in reality right before your eyes.”
[…] Impermanence means the truth that all are moving. Usually we say change, continuous change. So anyway, all are moving. Without exception, all are moving – including [both] physical and mental state of beings, all are moving. But all are not moving separately – all are moving interpenetrated, interconnecting with each other. This is moving, constantly moving.
For instance, if I see the world, immediately the world looks at me. So I cannot see the world just in terms of my ideas. If I see the winter, immediately the winter looks at me. So very naturally, I can handle the world which I have seen, but on the other hand there is a world I cannot handle, because I am a being watched by the world. So how can I deal with it? I don’t know. How does the world, winter, look at me? I don’t know. But this is exactly [that] the moment when I look at the world, the world looks at me, simultaneously.
In other words, that is the teaching of interdependent co-origination, we say. In other words, everything, without exception, cannot exist without […] connecting with you.
So even though you have never been to Japan, Japan exists. As long as Japan exists, it is connected with you. Even though you don’t see, you don’t cognize Japan right now, it is connected with you. That’s why we say, “Japan exists.”
In other words, there is nothing which exists without relating with your recognition, cognition. So always, all are related with you. Japan, and Nicaragua, and the planets which you have never been to, all the air, skies, all are connected with you.
So from this point, all [that the world holds] is moving means you are moving. Why? Because moving means to dichotomize things in two, separate things in two. And then they can look at each other, simultaneously.
For instance, I look at myself. And then if I look at myself, I can think who I am. And then next I can get the result, and then I try to judge the result which I have seen. And then next I can evaluate. And then next I can feel what I can feel, like or dislike – something like that. In that process of cognition, I am always looking at myself objectively. Is that clear? We always look at ourselves objectively, at a little distance. It’s very quick.
That’s why Yogacara [is] always looking at the mind in four ways: subject, and object, and also the third one is corroborating the subject and the object. And the fourth one is corroborating the third one. In other words, the third one corroborates the existence of the subject and the object – so-called, “This is Katagiri.” But on the other hand, the fourth one is corroborating the third. In other words, trying to get the proof, what the result is, always. Temporarily Yogacara divided the functioning of mind like this, in four ways. But practically speaking, constantly, countlessly, in many ways, the mind functions like that.
So that is called dualism, dichotomy. That is called moving. Mind is vibrating.
So if I see the world, immediately my mind moves. To see the world means the vibration of the mind. My mind is vibrating, and then I can see the world. And then, the world simultaneously is vibrated. And then my mind is vibrated.
So simultaneously, always there is a vibration of the mind between the world and I. Between I and I, always. This is always looking at something objectively.
39:36
So the vibration of the mind is also vibrating in many ways. Some vibration of the mind is very coarse. Some vibration of the mind is very fine. But among the coarse nature of the vibration [is] still the coarser of the coarse vibration of the mind – [he laughs] – this is really [the] usual attachment towards self. And the finer of the coarse vibration of the mind is attachment to… well, objects, dharma[s]. If you do zazen, you seem to be free from the self and also objects, but when you are out of the meditation, you pretty easily attach to the dharma[s], objects. [Sensuous] objects, so-called red or yellow, like or dislike, and something like that.
[Tape change.]
… [Various isms,] existentialism, something like that. Those kind of things are called dharma attachment. [It’s] the finer of the coarse vibration of the mind. And then you can create some defilements. If you attach to your ism – well, the ism itself is fine, but you create a real problem.
And also, among the fine vibration of the mind, still there are the coarser of the fine vibration of the mind, and also the finer of the fine vibration of the mind. You create some problem: a big question, created by the finer of the fine vibration of the mind. This is completely… we don’t know what it is.
For instance… this is according to the Awakening of Faith, I [talked about this] last time. In order to reach the tathagata stage or abode, you have to be free from the finer of the fine vibration of the mind. There is a defilement created by this.
That means, yesterday I said: when you wake up, what you have recognized is after the first moment of awakening, waking up. You don’t know the very beginning of the first thought, first waking up. You don’t know what it is. Because it is [the] very finer of the fine vibration of the mind.
Because this is… the partition between the truth, bodhi, the enlightened state of being, and also the unenlightened state of being. There is a very thin partition there, between. Well, temporarily I may say so, in order to explain, but actually [there is] no partition.
So when you sleep, […] you don’t know whether there is sleeping or not, because you are one with the sleep, so no concept of the sleep. So it’s exactly sleep; you become one with the nature of the sleep, which is called no trace of the sleep. And then you participate in the truth.
But on the other hand, when you wake up, immediately you can go to the unenlightened world – passing through very quickly, [he makes a shooting noise], like this. At that time, you miss this partition. This is the first thought, the first moment. Not the second; the very first moment of waking up. The conception of the waking up is something you can recognize after the first moment. [It is the] so-called second moment, or third moment, or fourth moment, et cetera. And then we say, “Ah, I wake up.” But we completely forget this very first moment, and also we completely ignore [it].
But this first moment is very important, because this is the moment you can dichotomize the world into two. From the truth, the enlightened world, [to] the unenlightened world. […] Dichotomize.
[…] We don’t know why we do this. Okay? [He laughs.] We don’t know why we dichotomize the world into two, from enlightened state to unenlightened state. We don’t know exactly. But when you realize it, already you are in the unenlightened world. That is, at that time we say, “I have woken up.” That’s it.
So the moment when you wake up, it’s already you are [in the] unenlightened world. And then the people always attach to that world, […] forgetting the first moment which is exactly the same as the enlightened world. We forget. But this first moment is very important, because this is the very first moment, when you can see how the world is structured between the enlightened and unenlightened. [The] enlightened world and unenlightened world [are] always connected – interconnected, interpenetrated. So it’s one. We don’t know why we dichotomize in order to be in the unenlightened world. But, already we do it. We have [already] done it in that way.
So that is called, we say, ignorance.
From where that ignorance comes, we don’t know. But it’s really there. Every day, there [it] is.
And then Buddhism [does not emphasize trying] to discover the first stage from where the ignorance comes. No. But [instead] we try to realize how important this first moment [is], how this ignorance is working, instead of liking or disliking [it]. In other words, what makes it possible for the ignorance to exist? Well, still you don’t know exactly, but like that for instance.
Only humans can reflect upon the shadow of the self. Just like [one of Aesop’s Fables]: the dog barks at his reflection in the water; he barks at the shadow of himself. This is a characteristic of human beings. It means we reflect on ourselves. In other words, we look at ourselves objectively; that is constantly [to] reflect. And then, we try to know what makes it possible for [the] reflection to be. In other words, what is the source of reflection, which makes it possible to exist?
In other words, what is the source of letting the mind move? What do we mean? What is it? What makes it possible for the mind to move? This is [what] Buddhism tries to understand constantly.
Then finally, we say this is ignorance. Ignorance makes the mind move; ignorance makes the mind reflect the self.
But this ignorance is very vague. But practically, it’s very clear.
So we don’t know from where it comes. So Buddhism says it [is] beginningless. This is a very interesting point.
Beginninglessness means you cannot chase after [it], chase back to the beginning of the ignorance, from where it comes. You cannot trace back. But even though you cannot trace back, look at reality: there is ignorance. Even though [we don’t know] from where it comes, even though we don’t know where it is going to, [still] it’s really there. We can realize that ignorance a little bit intellectually – sharp, very sharp intellectual sense. You can see it.
And also that ignorance is exactly… in other words, what is the place where that ignorance exists? This is the first moment. It is in the first moment.
The first moment is very “touchy.” If you touch it, it’s already unenlightened world. If you don’t [touch it], it’s [living] quietly; it’s melted away into the enlightened world.
So ignorance [is] melted away into the enlightened world, where if you touch it, it becomes ignorance immediately. So it always exists in the first moment, the very first moment, between the enlightened and unenlightened world. […]
So ignorance is exactly teaching at […] the very first moment of the unenlightened world, and also the very end of the truth, the enlightened world, simultaneously. So the bottom of the ignorance is really something pure. But on the other hand, the beginning of the ignorance is not pure, it’s already defiled. So that’s why ignorance is something very touchy, very touchy. Very delicate.
So very naturally, we have to realize it. We have to realize that one.
So that’s why impermanence means moving, constantly moving. Impermanence is the truth that all are moving.
So let’s [look at] what is the source of the moving – in other words, what makes it possible for all to move, so-called impermanence? Then finally, we reach so-called ignorance.
So what is the ignorance? Ignorance is beginningless. It’s there, constantly. “It’s there” means you cannot go this way or that way; it’s always there. But in a moment, the first moment, there. And then when you touch this one, second moment, then ignorance creates a different world. If you’re really there in the real first moment, you are participating in the truth.
So that is very touchy. That’s why this is called observation of impermanence. In other words, we try to know how impermanence is fabricated. This is the Buddha’s teaching, constantly – through philosophy, through the mental situation, and also through the practice; that is called zazen. Zazen allows you to come back to that source.
That’s why the Lotus Sutra always [explains] why the Buddha teaches the Buddha’s teaching, the Saddharma Pundarika Sutra: because Buddha wants you to return to the source of your birth. It means, how you were born – in other words, how your mind moved.
So you have to come back to that source. This is our practice. That is called observation of impermanence or insight of impermanence.
But people don’t know exactly. Always they ignore that first moment and are attaching to the world after second [moment]. That’s why we constantly create lots and lots of problems.
But Buddha knows this. That’s why impermanence means how pitiable human beings are. That’s why constantly you have to be compassionate to all sentient beings. We always do it.
So impermanence [means] – simply speaking, according to everydayness – Dogen Zenji says you have to be compassionate, you have to give sympathy to all.
Maybe tomorrow I would like to [talk about] egolessness more. Today, that’s all. Do you have questions?
Is that a little clearer for you, between bodhicitta, bodhi-mind, why we have to arouse the bodhi-mind, and which is connected with the practice of observing impermanence? A little bit clearer for you? If you have a question, please ask.
1:00:35
Question: You said – which I didn’t quite get – that if you participate in the first moment, then you’re near to the truth or you are in the truth. But by the time it’s the second moment, it’s defiled, by observation.
Katagiri Roshi: Right. Observation, yes. That is the practice of egolessness. Tomorrow I will explain more.
So very naturally, egolessness is coming up. How important the practice of egolessness is is naturally coming up.
The Awakening of Faith also talks about this. A little bit logically, systematically.
Question: Is the practice of egolessness [inaudible]
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. Constantly. The very first moment.
Question: But that doesn’t make any room for thinking. [Does it?] Once I start thinking, that first moment is way back there.
Katagiri Roshi: [Laughs.] Yes.
The other day, one of the students asked me, “What is the first thought of anger?” Do you understand this? What is the first moment of anger? What is this? [He laughs.]
The first moment of anger. That’s a very, what would you say, “tricky” question. [He laughs.] The first moment, first thought of the anger – it’s very tricky, you know? We don’t understand it. Can you understand the question? I don’t understand [it]. Because the first thought in the anger – what is the anger? What is the first thought? Completely different.
One of the students says, “Anger has already lots of thoughts.” [He laughs.] Yes, exactly. But he is asking what is the first thought of anger? What is this?
No concept of anger. It’s completely nothing.
[…] The root of the anger is nothing. So in other words, anger itself possesses great power to be free from anger. This is the truth. That’s why Vimalakirti talks about this: from where [does] the anger, good or bad, come? He says it comes from no-root.
So no-root means the first moment, first thought of anger. You have to come back to, not as an idea, you have to come back to that source of anger, practically. That’s pretty hard. But it’s very simple. That is the next issue, egolessness.
So you mentioned almost the same thing. Is that clear for you?
Same person: Mm, I don’t really track everything.
Katagiri Roshi: We have been always involved in the world after the second [thought]… well, broadly speaking, okay? And then we completely forget the existence of the first thought. Or, even though we know, we try to ignore it! Because it’s impossible for us; we believe it seems to be impossible to practice it.
That’s why very naturally people become very spiritual. And then people become [clinging to] our spirituality, [he laughs,] ignoring practicing with the body. Because we believe it seems to be impossible to practice, to be in the first moment, first thought. That’s why [we say], “Let’s jump it.” [He laughs.] That means chanting, chanting, chanting… creating your emotional energies, and then plunging into one object, constantly. They are ignoring your intellectual sense, and conscious function, et cetera. Emotionally you are plunging into it. [He laughs.] This is the usual way. But that is really dangerous, you know?
Is that alright?
Same person: Mm-hmm.
Katagiri Roshi: So that’s why the Saddharma Pundarika Sutra says, try to remember you of your past life. “Past life” means come back to the source. The first moment of your birth – let’s come back. That first moment is exactly the past life extended. It’s really [pervading]. If you are in the first moment, you can see the whole picture of the past. That is the first moment of your birth.
So reading the past life doesn’t mean what you did in the past. [He laughs.] That makes you crazy. No, I don’t think so. […] It is not the first important point. You have to be in the first thought – at that time you can see the panorama picture of your past life, and also you can see the panorama picture of your future. That’s why you can create your life. Very creative; creativity.
Someone: First thought is related to now, to experience.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure, now. That’s why “now and here.”
1:08:25
Question: Hojo-san, do you know the koan about a Zen Master and his discipline and it had something to do with listening to raindrops? And I think the teacher asked him if he heard something outside, and the disciple said, “I hear the sound of raindrops.” And I can’t remember what [happened next] but […] I think he said, “I almost don’t hear.” [Inaudible.] How does that relate…
Katagiri Roshi: I don’t remember exactly what he said. I think he doesn’t say “I almost don’t listen,” I think he says, “I almost [don’t] make a mistake.” But I don’t remember exactly. Let me check, alright? [He laughs.]
Well, anyway, “almost” means the Zen master is always right in the middle of the first moment. That’s why if you say, “I can hear,” it’s already the second thought. But if he says, “I don’t listen,” it’s already attached to the truth. So whatever he says, it doesn’t hit the mark. So that’s why he says, “I almost.” Do you [understand]? [He laughs softly.] That’s what [Kyosei] said. (Transcriber’s Note: This story is in Blue Cliff Record Case 46.)
Or, look at the second case of the Blue Cliff Record. I think a monk [asked Jōshū], “What is the truth?” [Jōshū is] constantly saying, “I know the truth” – so what is completely pure and nothing to attach to? So continually the monk asking, “What is the truth? Can you realize, can you be there?” Always [Jōshū] says, “I don’t know.” “I don’t know” means that being in the first moment is not I can be in the first moment. If you say, “I am always in the first moment,” that is already attachment. Being in the first moment is constantly you have to do it, every time when you see each aspect of everydayness. Gassho – that’s it. Simply. That is [the practice of] egolessness.
So he says, “I don’t know.” And then the monk says, “If you don’t know, how do you know?” [He laughs.] How do you know you are there? Do you understand? And then [Jōshū] says, “You are pretty smart. So bow and leave. Go away.”
That’s pretty good, isn’t it? Our consciousness is constantly talking about this one. How do you know, if you don’t know? That’s a pretty smart question. We are interested, we want to know that point: how do we know if we don’t know? [He laughs.] But it is reality; the first moment.
1:12:50
Question: Hojo-san? How can it be a first moment, if karma is from the beginningless time?
Katagiri Roshi: If karma…
Questioner: Karma is from beginningless time. How can there be a first moment?
Katagiri Roshi: If karma exists beginninglessly, I think karma is not something fabricated by ideas. It’s very a pure sense, the real pure sense of karma. So, no conception of the karma. That is called beginningless.
But when you create an idea, so-called karma, it is already in terms of the time process. You create [the karma], you see the karma. You see some situation of existence, so we put the name on it: “that is called karma.” So already you are involved in the time process. But [that] real karma exists beginninglessly means completely beyond the time process; because you cannot trace back to [it], but it exists here. It exists here means already it is connected with the past, but we cannot trace back. But it is really here. That means you have to really come back to the first moment, the first thought of the karma you can see. Because there is no other way.
So if you want to know the truth through your birth – how do you know? You have to use your five skandhas, okay? And the six senses, and six sense objects, et cetera. Without those, we cannot know. There is no other way.
So using and dealing with those [words], and then we have to see the real truth. How? That means you have to really come back to the source of the five senses, five senses objects, and the five skandhas. In other words, the real source of your birth. The very first thought of the birth. You have to come back. That is exactly connected with the truth.
And then that source is temporarily called beginningless. Because we don’t know; it’s beginningless. The first moment of your birth is exactly existent, beginningless[ly]. But if I say [it exists beginninglessly, that] means cutting off the intellectual sense, but I don’t mean this one. But intellectual means beyond intellectual you have to realize something real there.
And then after this, we can see. When you are there, when you put your body and mind right in the first moment, then you can see the panoramic picture. Just like being on the top of the IDS tower, and then you can see the panoramic picture of the Twin Cities area.
But intellectually, if you want to know the beginning of the panoramic picture of the Twin Cities area, you have to research, following the references, you know? Instead of being present on the top of the IDS tower. So very naturally, intellectually, we want to research. That seems to trace back to the beginning, but I don’t think you can see the total panoramic picture of the Twin Cities area through that intellectual understanding. Through the intellectual understanding, you seem to trace back to the source, but it is still intellectual. You can see the picture, but it is painted. So very naturally, the [real] panorama picture of the Twin Cities area is [that] you have to put your body and mind on the top of the IDS tower, practically. It means the first moment of your birth. And then you can see.
This is the practice – our practice.
1:18:25
Question: Hojo-san, what do you mean by the first moment of your birth?
Katagiri Roshi: The first moment of your waking up. [He laughs.] Same thing.
Someone: And it could be over and over and over again, it’s not a specific birth… [inaudible].
Katagiri Roshi: The first moment of your birth is a very vast […] world. It is not only connected with your parents and you. It is connected with many [things], visibly and invisibly. My first moment, thought of my existence right now, is very vast. It’s connected with Japan, and Minneapolis, [which] I can see, but many countries, many planets, many beings I cannot see. This is the source of my existence. This is the first thought of my existence right now. Is that clear?
1:20:00
Katagiri Roshi: Would you say again your question?
Question: My question has to do with conditioning. The things that we do because of previous things that have happened. And I’m wondering whether the first moment is free from conditioning.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Yes. Exactly.