November 1, 1985 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi

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Katagiri Roshi: Page 49. “b. Consciousness”. In Sanskrit, “Vijnana”.

In the previous chapter we studied the mind, citta. And we studied the mind which has five names, five different functions: activating mind, evolving mind, reproducing mind, analytical mind, and continuing mind. On page 48, this time this is consciousness, vijnana.

So in the previous life, if you used mind, there are two kinds of mind, citta and consciousness, vijnana, two. Vijnana is a rough nature of consciousness, rough nature of the mind. And if you say citta, it is a very smooth nature of mind.

Well, let’s read “b. Consciousness”:

What is called “consciousness (vijñana)” is the “continuing mind.” Because of their deep-rooted attachment, ordinary people imagine that “I” and “mine” are real and cling to them in their illusions. As soon as objects are presented, this consciousness rests on them and discriminates the objects of the five senses and of the mind. This is called “vijñana”(i.e., the differentiating consciousness) or the “separating consciousness.” Or, again, it is called the “object-discriminating consciousness.” [The propensity for discrimination of] this consciousness will be intensified by both [the intellectual] defilement of holding fast to perverse views and [the affectional] defilement of indulgence in passion.

(From The Awakening of Faith, translated by Yoshito S. Hakeda, 1967.)

Okay, first,

What is called “consciousness (vijñana)” is the “continuing mind.”

So consciousness, is in this case, continuing mind, which is one of the five different functions of citta in the previous chapter. Continuing mind is the last function of mind in the previous chapter, page 48. You can see, “The fifth is called the ‘continuing mind,’ for it is united with [deluded] thoughts and continues uninterrupted.” So in the human life there is something continuous, so-called citta, regarded as very subtle and smooth nature of mind. Consciousness is constantly there. And then if it appears on the surface, this is called consciousness, vijnana, regarded as rough nature, coarse nature of consciousness, mind.

So, that’s why here it says the consciousness is the continuing mind. So in other words, our usual rough nature of consciousness, you cannot stop functioning, so always [this] rough nature of consciousness is functioning. Always. Without this we cannot exist. So rough nature and smooth nature of the mind, always exists.

Because of their deep-rooted attachment, ordinary people imagine that “I” and “mine” are real and cling to them in their illusions.

Why [do] the mind, citta, and also vijnana, exist constantly? Because it is rooted very deeply in the human life. How we can know that there are two ways we can see, one is “I” as a subject, and also mind means object. When you see the object, there is very naturally to self-consciousness occur, so called “I” and also the mind, attaching to object. That functioning, that attachment, is deeply rooted in the human consciousness.

So, the I in Buddhism we call self-attachment. I, self-attachment. And the mind is called dharma attachment. You attach to the object, that is called dharma attachment. If we attach to ourselves, so-called the self or I, that is called self-attachment.

So, that is vijnana, and also when that I and minds occur, for instance when six sense organs separately functions, if eye organ sees this microphone, eye organ can see this microphone, but not ear, not mouth, not body, not mind. So only eye catches this microphone. So six sense organs function completely separately. That’s why vijnana is sometimes called separating consciousness.

And also this vijnana functions always seeing object, this vijnana always has its own object. Without object, this consciousness doesn’t function. So, always the vijnana, the function with its own object. That’s why vijnana is called object discriminating consciousness. But the object discriminating consciousness or separating consciousness, both are not separated, in this case one-mind. Not one mind… yes, one mind. They don’t have a separate substance. So,

As soon as objects are presented, this consciousness rests on them and discriminates the objects of the five senses and of the mind. This is called “vijñana”(i.e., the differentiating consciousness) or the “separating consciousness.” Or, again, it is called the “object-discriminating consciousness.”

It means it has constantly its own object, and then it works. How? Six sense organs separately work, and also consciousness anyway catches the object and thinks and judges. So, very naturally the vijnana is called sometimes object discriminating consciousness.

[The propensity for discrimination of] this consciousness will be intensified by both [the intellectual] defilement of holding fast to perverse views and [the affectional] defilement of indulgence in passion.

So, I think vijnana is intensified, anyway vijnana is carried on, constantly by two defilements. One is very intellectual, the other one is very affectional. Intellectual is when you see a microphone, very naturally, this is a microphone, you can analyze the object very intellectually, how it works and how it is produced, et cetera. Very intellectual. But on the other hand, affectional defilement means if you see microphones, very naturally you attach to the microphone, [that] emotionally. [He chuckles.] So, intellectually you understand pretty well this is a microphone, this is I. But emotionally, you cannot see the microphone and I, creating a little space. But immediately we attach to the microphone and grasp it, so-called mind. Like this. That is always emotionally and also intellectually.

So, in Buddhism generally we have to practice for a long time, for a long, long time, so-called from this life on throughout countless lives. Bodhisattvas and ancestors practice constantly. Because we have to take care of this intellectual defilement and also affectional defilement. It is very deeply rooted.

So, that’s why here it says, “intellectual defilement of holding”. What is intellectual defilement? It is so-called “holding fast to perverse views”. Perverse view means intellectually if you see the microphone we understand the microphone. We say, “I understand it.” If I talk with Bob, I say, “Yes, I understand what you say.” But actually, I don’t understand exactly. You see the microphone, I see the microphone, everybody looking at the microphone, so everyone says, “Yes, it is microphone.” But how do I know the microphone that Bob understands? No, I don’t, because Bob’s experience is different from me. Do you understand? Everyone looks at the microphone in a sense equally, but individually understands it differently. So very naturally, I don’t understand Bob’s understanding of microphone.

So, this is “holding”. But nevertheless, we say, “I understand microphone.” Okay? And then Bob says, “I understand microphone. Yes I [do].” So finally, we fight. This is “holding fast to perverse views”, this is intellectual understanding.

And next, “affectional defilement of indulgence in passion.” Passion is very strong emotions. In Buddhism sometimes we call it “thirsting desires”. Very naturally, deeply coming up. Very strong emotion, impulses of emotion. So, from this point consciousness is … functioning of our mind in everyday life on the ground of self-consciousness, and […] discriminating the separate world of subject and object. This is consciousness, our consciousness, so-called vijnana.

And also this vijnana is intensified by two defilements, intellectual and affectional.

[…] And also I mentioned the continuing mind in a previous chapter. Mind is functioning in five different ways. Last one is continuing mind. That continuing mind is called vijnana, rough consciousness, rough nature of consciousness. But on the other hand, this continuing mind has two types of mind, one is rough nature of consciousness and also smooth nature of consciousness, so-called citta. And this consciousness anyway intensified by two defilements.

For instance, the rough nature of consciousness is kind of discussing about the ideology or discipline of certain religions, and philosophy and ideology. And then we are really strongly attached to different teaching of religions, very strongly. But actually, according to this teaching, The Awakening of Faith, I think we understand each single teaching of religion is fine, but it is already perverted, perverse view. We have a perverse view, because we never know, we never know object as it is exactly. We never know the teaching of religion exactly clearly. No. This is not opportunity […] different to the human being. Human being just receive this object, and the teaching, whatever it is, openly. Anyway openly, that is what we can do. Just openly, and try to understand as best as we can, deeply. Try to approach, try to gain access to the object as it is, constantly. But we never know, we never know. We never know, that is why we have to understand it. If you know, it is not necessary to try to understand. So constantly we try to gain access toward object, and any kind of teaching, ideology, whatever it is. Because always we receive object reflected in our mind first, and then we understand… what? Not object; image of the object reflected in your consciousness. That’s it. So this is very individual. So you don’t understand the microphone, no. That’s your understanding. That’s why if you see religions, and believe it, and understand it, very naturally, intellectually, we try to hold fast to this individual religious teaching, so-called Buddhism and Christianity and Islam, etc. And then try to hold fast to it. This is so-called attachment, very strong intellectual attachment. The more you understand it, the more attachment. The more you work hard, the more you attach to your own life which you have experienced. So very naturally, there is intellectual defilement, very strong delusion there. And then next, [he laughs slightly,] we say, “This is my religion.” Then you have, “your religion is wrong, my religion is right,” always there. This is called dharma attachment. Very emotionally. You cannot stop it. That is why always fighting.

I think you should understand, I don’t mean… in Buddhism, the main practice of Buddhism is to practice egolessness. But egolessness is not to destroy reasoning, or one’s reasoning or subjectivity of cognition, self. Because wherever you are, enlightened or unenlightened, you have to see, you have to have your object. So very naturally, there is a subject and object, then we say “my existence”. If you exist in this world, then naturally subject and object there. So even though you attain enlightenment, still there is an object. So if you see the object very naturally: “Oh, microphone,” you say. Then if you say microphone, immediately there is a subject, because object [is] there. If there is no object, subject is gone, automatically. But always we see the object, so very naturally there is subject.

But in Buddha, Buddha says “I”. If I see the object, Buddha says, “I see microphone.” But in his subjectivity of his cognition has nothing to do with attachment, self-attachment. No. Just simply work. “I see,” when he sees the microphone, immediately “I see the microphone.” That’s it. So there is only simple function of the subjectivity of cognition. But ordinary people see the microphone, say “I see microphone,” then attach to the subjectivity of the ordinary people’s cognition, they relate very closely, strongly with attachment. So we cannot see the microphone simply, because there are two attachments, defilements, one is intellectual and emotional defilements. Very naturally. So this is subjectivity of ordinary people’s cognition has very close, strong relation with self-attachment. Very self-attachment. That’s why a little bit complicated. Very complicated.

So egolessness is not to destroy subjectivity of cognition. Without subjectivity of cognition you cannot exist. So the question is, how can you present subjectivity of cognition as simply as it is. Just, there. That’s pretty hard practice. But this is important for us. How can you present yourself right in front of the different teachings of religion, so-called Buddhism. How can you present yourself, how can you manifest yourself in the realm of different religions, so-called Buddhism, and Christianity, et cetera. So all you have to do is, you should present subjectivity of cognition as simple as it is.

So even Buddhism, you cannot say, “This is mine.” No. Yes, it’s yours; it’s your belief. But you cannot say, “This is my belief.” If you say “this is my belief,” very naturally it has its own partner. Partner means something different opinions, different religions. That’s why you say “mine” – very naturally, different person’s religion there. So if you say my religion, that attachment invites different others’ religions. So very naturally, there is other religion and your religion. And next, all you have to do is face each other as simply as you can. You should present yourself as simple as you can. But we don’t. So we say, “This is my religion. My religion.” So hold it, and then fight it. Even the religions, we do always.

So that’s why there is the rough nature, and through the rough nature of consciousness, so-called vijnana, there is a very strong attachment. That attachment is called intellectual defilements and affectional defilements. And then in many ways you can experience this one. Also that is really troublemakers in your human life.

But on the other hand, the smooth nature of consciousness is a little different. So-called … for instance, smooth nature of consciousness doesn’t have particular attachment, self attachment and dharma attachment. It doesn’t have particular attachment, strong attachment. No. Just work. Just, the mind works. Simply.

For instance, if you want to be a dancer, you go to the school and under the guidance of the teacher, you always move your hands and legs and the body. Anyway, completely beyond like or dislike, you always move your hands and legs and the whole body. Beyond good or bad, right or wrong. Beyond intellectual defilements or emotional defilements. You just move. This kind of movement is pretty simple function. Very simple. Beyond intellectual and emotional defilements. This is kind of a smooth nature of consciousness. Very smooth. So it’s always happening.

Or, sometimes if I snap my fingers right in front of your eyes, your eyes immediately close. This kind of movement is completely beyond. It’s smooth nature of consciousness. Beyond your control.

Or, memories. You carry the memories. How do you carry the memories? We don’t know. And also, when you do zazen, one of the memories pops up, comes up immediately, which you have forgotten already. But when you do zazen, the memories come up. This is completely beyond your control. That is kind of … the smooth nature of consciousness.

And also, for instance, discovery of something, new ideas. Or when you do zazen, new ideas coming up. Have you ever experienced? Pretty nice ideas come up, when you do zazen. So you really appreciate zazen. [He laughs.] It’s pop, come immediately just like a computer. So you don’t want to forget it, that’s why you want to take a note. [He laughs.] I always say, that kind of meditation is “part-time zazen.” [Laughter.]

And also inspiration. Inspiration is also nothing but the smooth nature of consciousness. Inspiration is coming up. When you see somebody, something you can see, you can touch, you don’t know what it is. If you see somebody immediately you are moved. I don’t know by what. But this is inspiration. Or you say intuition.

Or sometimes… I am presenting [examples], okay? Mysterious experience. This is also beyond your control. Mysterious. When one of your very close relatives is about to die, the moment he or she dies, immediately you can get, whatever you get… some information, experience. Seeing him or her, or something happens. This kind of mysterious experience is completely beyond your control.

Or, I mentioned before, you can get very new, nice ideas, what you will want to do in the future. You know? This kind of idea coming up. This is also one of the examples.

And also, lifestyle based on … hard life, easy life, or neutral life – or pleasant life or unpleasant life – retributed from your past life.

For instance, wherever you may go, suffering is suffering, but for instance, if I live in Japan, I can live in Japan, a little easier than living in the United States, et cetera. Okay? But strictly speaking, I don’t know which is better, anyway. [He laughs.] But, very briefly, understand my life: why don’t you live in Japan? Because I am Japanese. Why do you come here to the United States? I don’t understand, anyway. But I am already here, so I have to live in the United States. So very naturally, different bitterness, and different happiness and unhappiness, I have to experience. I don’t know why I have to experience this bitterness, or unhappiness. I don’t know. Probably, this is my lifestyle retributed from my past life. So probably, in my past life, probably I was American. [He laughs.] Probably… [Laughter.] So, very naturally, I have to live in the United States. Something like that. So this is also, we say, karmic life, in Buddhism, or retribution of karmic life, from which we can experience particular happiness, or unhappiness, or neutral.

So this is called … the very smooth nature of mind. This is so-called attachment, dharma attachment. Dharma attachment is very smooth nature, very subtle. Because you have memories. So, memories coming up, because you have experienced before. So very naturally, lots of memories in your mind, so memories coming up constantly. So this is, memories come from what? Dharma attachment. It’s from dharma attachment. In other words, attachment to object. Simply or complicatedly, it doesn’t matter, anyway attachment to the object. So very naturally, we have lots of memories, and inspirations, and ideas. We have lots of stories – big stories, huge stories.

And also, this dharma nature, dharma attachment, is going in the deep level of human existence. Who takes care of, who deals with this consciousness? Who controls this one? Well, this is called, probably, ālayavijñāna. It’s very basic [consciousness], ālayavijñāna, which is going constantly. In this book, temporarily it is named as continuing mind, continuing citta.

So, it’s not your business. That is inspiration, and memories are carried by you, but this is not your business, this is ālayavijñāna business. But, when it is manifested, it’s your business, because you have to deal with it. So you cannot ignore. So it’s not your business in the deep sense, but it’s your business. So you have to take care.

And also, in Buddhism, sometimes… I like cigar, something like that. I like … sushi, you know, something like that. Like or dislike, is sometimes pretty beyond human control. Even though you say, “I like a cigar,” at that time I tell myself, “Don’t think in that way.” “You should think intellectually, I don’t like a cigar.” But I can’t control. Do you? So, it’s impossible to think, “I don’t like a cigar,” because I like a cigar. Just like […] George Burns, he’s always smoking cigar, even though he’s ninety years old …

[Tape change.]

… Very naturally, you know, like or dislike is there, beyond your control. So it’s very deep. So from where the like or dislike or affective preference comes, it’s very deep. But on the other hand, when it appears on the surface of human life, it is your business, so you have to take care of it. That’s why very naturally there is a smooth nature of citta and also rough nature of consciousness. Very naturally there are two kinds of consciousness that can be considered. And both are not separated. Both are working together. That’s why in this book, this book doesn’t analyze separately, but they deal with two different types of consciousness as one.

38:48

Next paragraph, page 49, the second line from the bottom:

That the [deluded mind and] consciousness arise from the permeation of ignorance is something that ordinary people cannot understand. The followers of the Hinayana, with their wisdom, likewise fail to realize this. Those bodhisattvas who, having advanced from their first stage of correct faith by setting the mind [upon enlightenment] through practicing contemplation, have come to realize the dharmakaya….

[Dharmakaya means] dharma body. Dharmakaya means the truth itself.

… can partially comprehend this. Yet even those who have reached the final stage of bodhisattvahood cannot fully comprehend this; only the Enlightened Ones (Buddhas) have thorough comprehension of it. Why? The Mind, though pure in its self-nature from the beginning, is accompanied by ignorance. Being defiled by ignorance, a defiled [state of] mind comes into being. But, though defiled, the Mind itself is eternal and immutable. Only the Enlightened Ones are able to understand what this means.

In this paragraph, the main point that I want to say is ignorance. We create the human life interdependent interconnections with phenomenal world and noumenon world. Phenomenon, noumenon. According to this book, so-called tathāgatagarbha and also ālayavijñāna. How do we create ālayavijñāna which means samsara, phenomenal world. It is produced by means of ignorance. So there is only one mind, but there are two aspects, two aspects of human life. But it’s very close relation, they are very closely working together. So we don’t know how. So, the main point this paragraph says is that you never know from where ignorance comes, how it works. No. So what is ignorance? We don’t know. Only the Buddha can know. By virtue of the study and the practice, and then you say, “I understand the ignorance.” It is deluded. Or you say, “I understand the Buddha’s teaching.” Yes you do – but you cannot attach to it. Because you never know. You have no chance to understand what it is clearly. If you know, it is perverted. So that is what this paragraph mentions.

So from this point you should be very clearly concerned that where you are standing. That place is very important for us, where you are standing. The place where you stand is the great opportunity to understand you and object clearly? No. So your place, the place where you stand is nothing to know. This is your location. You stand up. That’s why very naturally in this book, what is important for us, for human life? So you have to jump. Anyway, faith. Believe it. [He chuckles.] Belief [coming] up very strongly. So this book, toward the end, you can study faith, the practice of faith, and the explaining of faith, very naturally, strongly.

44:12

So let’s read.

That the [deluded mind and] consciousness arise from the permeation of ignorance is something that ordinary people cannot understand.

Means that there is one mind, and one mind with two aspects. One is tathāgatagarbha, which its nature never changes. Water is water. But on the other hand, when that water moves, immediately water creates something else, something different. That is called waves, regarded as ālayavijñāna. That is samsara. How we can create this samsara – it says permeation of ignorance.

So ignorance is always there, before you think from where it comes. So it’s very clear. We say beginningless. This book, later you can know. Beginningless is – look at the page 50, and the last paragraph. He says suddenly, sudden occurrence:

Suddenly, [a deluded] thought arises; [this state] is called ignorance.

So ignorance is suddenly occurred. But this suddenly is not exactly hitting the mark of the nature of ignorance. Another expression is beginningless. Beginningless means you cannot chase after, you cannot trace back, or you cannot trace to the source of ignorance, from where it comes. No. Beginningless means regardless of whether you are conscious of it or not, it’s already here, now. Here, already, now. But when you see that ignorance, we want to know from where it comes! If you don’t know, you don’t want to accept it. But Buddhism, this book says it is beginningless means no way to discuss. It’s here, with us. In the present, in the moment, it’s already. So that is very important for so-called suddenly, sudden occurrence, or beginningless. Different expressions we use.

So that’s why ordinary people cannot understand. Ut’s very difficult to understand what is the unity, merging of ālayavijñāna and the tathāgatagarbha. We don’t know how they exist in peace, in harmony together. No.

48:00

So,

The followers of the Hinayana, with their wisdom, likewise fail to realize this. Those bodhisattvas who, having advanced from their first stage of correct faith by setting the mind [upon enlightenment] through practicing contemplation, have come to realize the dharmakaya can partially comprehend this.

So still there is a possibility to know. But you have to, anyway, climb lots of ladders, according to the system of Buddhism, so-called 52 steps. [He chuckles.] I think some of you have a list of the practice in Buddhism generally. Some of you have, do you? Yeah. Ten stages of … faith, ten stages of security, ten stages of necessary activity, ten stages of transference of merits to others, and ten stages of developing buddha wisdom, and the stage of buddha. This is final. So ten, fifty, fifty-two stages. That is a bodhisattva practice.

So first is the ten stages of faith. This is the first. So when you want to practice, understand that picture of ignorance, how it works. In other words, as clear as you can, you have to see structure, how human being is produced, human life, different aspect of human life is produced. We have to see clearly. It’s not necessary to understand completely, but you have to taste it, how it works. As clear as you can. This is our practice. So for this, you need the ten stages, you need the practice to walk ten steps of faith. Like this. There are lots of names here, but I don’t want to say.

And next you can walk in ten steps of security. And then next, you can go through ten steps of necessary activity. Then next, ten steps of transference of merits to others.

Ten steps of necessary activity is, if your personality is very deepened, very naturally, this ten steps of necessary activity must be required. Naturally you can do it. Naturally. Even though you don’t. If you become mature, very naturally this kind of practice is going.

And also, if you go further, in other words, if you have a more, if you go deeper, more deeply, if you go further to maturity in life, then next is ten steps of transference of merits to others. It means, egolessness. Okay? Pretty egoless. If you do something, just do. And, put it aside. Without expecting reward, et cetera, you just do it. You just give kindness to others. Without attachment, without respecting, without reward. Anyway, just do it. This is giving merits to others. This kind of practice coming up naturally. This is very kind. It’s really kind, compassionate.

And then, if you go through this practice, then you can reach first stage of developing buddha wisdom, buddha seeds. And then you can get into the first stage, first step to Buddha’s world. That is called ten steps of developing Buddha’s wisdom.

But they mentioned by Avatamsaka Sutra. Avatamsaka Sutra explains this ten stage steps of developing Buddha’s wisdom in detail. Particular sutra there. Already you have it in the English version. It’s very interesting. Bodhisattva practice. When you reach the first stage, then you can have an opportunity to see the overall picture of ignorance. How it connects with the phenomenal world and the noumenon world. We can see.

But still it’s not perfect. Only Buddha knows. So you have to reach final stage. So called buddha, stage of the buddha. Who knows? Buddha is who? So only Buddha knows. It’s very interesting. You know? [He laughs.] For me, it’s very interesting. So you never know. But only Buddha knows. The Saddharma Pundarika (the Lotus Sutra) says, only Buddha knows. Yes it is. It’s not mysterious, it’s really true. Only Buddha knows.

In other words, for example, “I knows I”. “I’s knows I’s as they are”. Means “I”s doesn’t know what they are. But real “I’s” knows the “I’s”, what they are. But in terms of our knowledge, the system of knowledge, is going, first, we separate subject and object. And then we see the object, then we say “Oh yes, I understand”. So if I see my “I’s” immediately “I’s” two “I’s” there. The one “I’s” and the other “I’s” separately. [He laughs.] And then, I can see my “I’s”. But this is not real understanding. So only the “I” itself, how the “I” itself can know? It doesn’t. The “I” cannot. The “I” “I’s” decide. The “I’s” don’t know. Means, Buddha knows. Only Buddha knows.

Well, later, it says, that’s why it says, let me say, “Followers of Hinayana with their wisdom likewise fail to realize this.” So it’s still a little difficult to understand. But they seems to understand, but it’s not exactly. Hinayana means a person who attains enlightenment through the rhythm of nature, functioning of nature, different change of seasons, something like that. And also a person who attains enlightenment of listening to a voice of nature, so-called Buddha’s teaching. Principle of nature. Those people can be kind of a saint. But even though they become saint or enlightened person, but still it’s pretty difficult to know.

So next we have to go to Bodhisattva’s practice. Bodhisattva has a chance to know what it is, but still it’s not perfect. So we have to go practice constantly until you can reach the first stage of the ten steps of developing of the Buddha’s seed, Buddha’s world. Anyway, then you can get into the Buddha’s world. That is at that time first opportunity to know “I’s” as they really are. You can touch it. You can just a little touch. For instance, what is the truth? You can really taste what the truth is. But it’s not perfect. So, you can taste it. That’s why still we have an opportunity to taste it.

But the final stage, so-called Buddha, we can really understand. But that is later. It says,

The Mind, though pure in its self-nature from the beginning, is accompanied by ignorance. Being defiled by ignorance, a defiled [state of] mind comes into being. But, though defiled, the Mind itself is eternal and immutable. Only the Enlightened Ones are able to understand what this means.

In other words, real pure nature, so called absolute. Absolute is Is [as] they are. The absolute means table, real absolute nature of table as it is. Before and after you are conscious of it, it’s there, exactly. That is called as-it-is-ness, we say. But when consciousness tries to gain access toward this, this real absolute is just kind of … magnetic, or … very [elastic]. If you really [unintelligible], immediately you bounce. But you seems to the touch, but you don’t touch exactly. You [seem] to touch it, but you are bounced [off]. This is the truth itself.

So very naturally, mind tries to gain access to this absolute and truth, and then [unintelligible] to very close, come closely to it. And then, if actually, if a mind touch it, mind becomes calm. But, it is bounced. That’s why mind starts to move. When the mind starts to move, it goes farther and farther from this absolute. This is always happens.

So you [seem] to the reach to the end of the way, travel, so-called terminal station. But if you are there, you cannot stay there, you have to go somewhere! So very naturally, you start to move. Your life starts again.

So this is called ālayavijñāna. And then, you can come very closely to tathāgatagarbha, so-called absolute… but we cannot stay with it. If you want to stay, [really a] scare coming up, fear. You are not comfortable. So very naturally, bounced. So that’s pretty good for us.

So very naturally, that is called movement of consciousness. [It] starts to move. Why that mind bounced, we don’t know. This is called ignorance. By means of ignorance it’s bounced. So-called creating waves. How wind and the original nature of the ocean, so-called water, touches the original nature of the water and creates waves – we don’t know. We don’t know this movement. It touches, but it doesn’t touch it. But very closely work together.

So that’s why here it says, “Only the enlightened ones are able to understand what this means.” That’s why if you become Buddha [or] bodhisattva, very deeply, very naturally, you become humble. You become very humble. Because the more you know the overall picture of the tathāgatagarbha and ālayavijñāna, working together in peace and harmony smoothly, at that time you never know what it is. So you are, anyway, released in the completely nothing to know. Then you can release yourself in so-called emptiness. So very naturally, nothing to hang on [to]. So very naturally it becomes humble, very humble, and compassionate or kind.

So that’s why constantly we have to say, “Only Buddha knows.” You never know. Only Buddha knows.

Next paragraph:

What is called the essential nature of Mind is always beyond thoughts.

Beyond the thoughts. Essential nature of the mind is always beyond the thoughts. That means constantly memories, and new ideas, and inspirations, mysterious experiences, they are related with something else. You have to…

1:05:19 recording ends unexpectedly


This talk was transcribed by Kikan Michael Howard. Audio recordings of Katagiri Roshi are being used with permission of Minnesota Zen Meditation Center.

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