The Awakening of Faith – Talk 23
October 19, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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0:00
Katagiri Roshi: Page 43.
b. The Aspect of Nonenlightenment
Because of not truly realizing oneness with suchness, there emerges an unenlightened mind and, consequently, its thoughts. These thoughts do not have any validity to be substantiated; therefore, they are not independent of the original enlightenment. It is like the case of a man who has lost his way: he is confused because of [his wrong sense of] direction. If he is freed from [the notion of] direction altogether, then there will be no such thing as going astray. It is the same with human beings: because of [the notion of] enlightenment, they are confused. But if they are freed from [the fixed notion of] enlightenment, then there will be no such thing as nonenlightenment. Because [there are people] of unenlightened, deluded mind, for them we speak of true enlightenment, knowing well what this [relative] term stands for. Independent of the unenlightened mind, there are no independent marks of true enlightenment itself that can be discussed.
(From The Awakening of Faith, translated by Yoshito S. Hakeda, 1967.)
From here, non-enlightenment will be described. So far, we studied enlightenment during the training sessions, in the Hokyoji temple anyway.
[I think] this section can be divided into two [parts]. From the beginning to the middle of the paragraph, […] eight lines from the top: “… then there will be no such thing as going astray.” This is the first section. And the rest of the section is the other.
The first section describes about […] non-enlightenment based on enlightenment. [Let’s look at] page 38, at the top paragraph.
(2) The Process of Actualization of Enlightenment.
Grounded on the original enlightenment is nonenlightenment.
That first paragraph explains about this, “grounded on the original enlightenment is non-enlightenment.” Second section describes the rest of the sentence at page 38:
And because of nonenlightenment, the process of actualization of enlightenment can be spoken of.
Let’s see.
[…] “Because of not truly realizing oneness with suchness, there emerges an unenlightened mind and consequently its thoughts.”
So far, we studied enlightenment. Original enlightenment is that the true dharma can be realized as one, exactly as one. But non-enlightenment is that true dharma, the truth, cannot be realized in its oneness.
“There issues forth the unenlightened mind.”Another translation by D.T. Suzuki says,
By the so-called non-enlightenment, we mean that as the true Dharma [i. e. , suchness] is from all etern- ity not truthfully recognised in its oneness, there issues forth an unenlightened mind and then subjectivity (smrti). But this subjectivity has no self-existence independent of enlightenment a priori.
So in this case, “there issues forth the mind” means in un-enlightenment, non-enlightenment. Or on the other hand, “not truly realizing oneness” with the truth means the source from which deluded thoughts emerge.
The source is likened to the same character of non-enlightenment, but it cannot be considered as exactly non-enlightenment. Because non-enlightenment is the stage of consciousness which deluded thoughts occur after the mind operates, consciousness operates, and then that is called deluded, non-enlightenment. But the source of consciousness itself cannot be called non-enlightenment. The source of consciousness is something more than non-enlightenment. Because if you say… because the source is called non-enlightenment, the source, farther, must be considered as non-enlightenment and again farther discussion is going endlessly.
So the non-enlightenment is a state of consciousness after it’s operated. But the source of non-enlightenment which is called consciousness cannot realize the truth as oneness. That means source of consciousness. Is that clear? No. Heh.
So, enlightenment or non-enlightenment is a matter of awakening or a matter of cognition. And so, from this point, insofar as there is idea of enlightenment or non-enlightenment, that is something after the consciousness is operated.
So that’s why if you say non-enlightenment, it means that which consciousness operates. So operation of consciousness is nothing but non-enlightenment. But non-enlightenment can be grounded on enlightenment because… what would you say… there is a power which causes non-enlightenment to exist. So the power which causes non-enlightenment to exist can be unknowable. Because when you sleep, the function of the consciousness cannot be knowable during sleep. So no matter how often you wake up, the function of the consciousness cannot be known. And then the moment when the consciousness operates, that is called waking up. That is already delusion. Consciousness. Non-enlightenment. Un-enlightened mind. Okay?
So next it says, “Because of not truly realizing oneness with suchness…” The D.T. Suzuki translation says, “By the so-called non-enlightenment, we mean that as the true Dharma [i. e. , suchness] is from all etern- ity not truthfully recognised in its oneness, there issues forth an unenlightened mind…” This translation says, “[and] consequently, its thoughts.” Its thoughts is function of the consciousness.
The function of the consciousness is matter of cognitive consciousness, cognitive subjectivity, whatever you say. So, “consequently, its thoughts,” this is deluded. Because, function of the consciousness dichotomizes subject and object. This is [the] character of consciousness.
And before, I think, what would you say, example of… we learned, what would you say, the explanation of… relation with the truth, ignorance, and the mode of consciousness. In other words, we studied the relation between the truth, ignorance, and the function of consciousness.
So, consciousness is compared to a wave, truth is water, and ignorance is wind. So those three are interconnected, interpenetrated. Without water, the waves cannot exist. Without waves, the water cannot exist, and also, wind cannot exist. So, very naturally, those three are interconnected, interpenetrated. They are never separated.
From this point, each of them – water, waves, wind – have no substantiality of their own. Only when they are interconnected, each of them can exist. They never exist separately.
So, the total interdependent interpenetration is indication of the source of consciousness. So the source of consciousness cannot have its own definition, which is called non-enlightenment, or enlightenment itself, because it is going interdependently, interpenetrated. Like the relation between a school and the students and teachers.
So, because of not truly realizing oneness with suchness, there emerges an unenlightened mind. And then, consequently, it is called deluded thoughts.
These thoughts do not have any validity to be substantiated.
So these thoughts do not have any validity to be substantiated, because deluded thoughts are nothing but the waves, so they don’t have […] substantiality of their own.
Question: Hojo-san? Are these any thoughts? All thoughts?
Katagiri Roshi: Any thoughts, yes. Yes, all thoughts. All thoughts means not the function of the consciousness, okay?
So, what can I say, all thoughts means deluded thoughts. How consciousness operates. This is, in this book, the author. The function of the consciousness can be occurred by ignorance. But ignorance is not… yes, ignorance, but ignorance is a kind of… what to say, a kind of lust for life, and arrogance, attachment. And ignorance. But cognition itself operating in a simple way, constantly. For instance the sense organs, the sense object, and consciousness, senses. So, when the sense organs see the microphone, microphone is assimilated with the sense organs, and consciousness joins, and judge. But at that time, there is something extra, which is called three poisons, and also lust for life, arrogance, attachment, and ignorance. Those [things] always exist there.
So, when the subject understands the microphone, and then we say, “there is a subject.” Okay? For instance, “I think, therefore I exist.” That means, when I see the microphone, and then I understand the microphone, but at that time, I understand who I am. Without understanding I, you know, I cannot understand the microphone. So, very naturally, when the consciousness operates and […] knows something, at that time, the idea of the self, or idea of subject, comes into existence.
So, the idea of the self goes with the lust for life, and arrogance, and attachment, and the igornance. And then there is something coming up, something going, which is very complicated. That is called ignorance. It’s really ignorance.
Because ignorance doesn’t know the self, who it is, exactly. So, very naturally, the function of the consciousness is going, constantly. But, even though consciousness is operating, but consciousness itself doesn’t know what it is. So, very naturally, there is [going]. There is a going, creating something. That is lust for life, arrogance, attachment, ignorance. Lack of understanding the self, that is ignorance.
So, this is what is called ignorance, we say.
27:00
“These thoughts do not have any validity to be substantiated,” so next,
… therefore, they are not independent of the original enlightenment.
Because these thoughts, means, the deluded thoughts, do not have any validity to be substantiated. [That means], the mind going astray is not separate from the mind not going astray. Therefore, the awakening of deluded thought, what would you say, guides you to the undefiled mind. So, deluded mind is not separate from origin of the mind. Because the deluded mind can be awakened, but within deluded mind, there is a power which causes deluded mind to be awakened. Because, always there is a power which causes deluded mind to be awakened.
For instance, when you sleep. Within the sleep, there is a power which has been prepared for you to be awakened, to be awakened, constantly. And then, when the time is ripe, conditions arranged, you can wake up. But, the power which causes you to wake up cannot be seen, cannot be ignored. That is called enlightenment. But, enlightenment is always there.
So, these thoughts do not have, that is, that means these thoughts….that’s why these thoughts do not have any validity to be substantiated. “Therefore, they are not independent of the original enlightenment.”
It is like the case of a man who has lost his way: he is confused because of [his wrong sense of] direction. If he is freed from [the notion of] direction altogether, then there will be no such thing as going astray.
Okay? Do you understand? This is, you have already idea of directions. If you have idea of directions, you attach to it. Then, that’s why there is, very naturally, the idea of non-enlightenment or enlightenment comes into existence. When you are right on the right course, so-called west, you say, I am right on, right in the direction. You are going in the right way. That is called enlightenment. But if you take the wrong direction, immediately you know it’s wrong. Because you are caught by already idea of directions.
So the enlightenment and non-enlightenment are connected [with] each other already. So that’s why [it says here] “… they are not independent of the original enlightenment. It is like the case of a man who has lost his way: he is confused because of [his wrong sense of] direction. If he is freed from [the notion of] direction altogether, then there will be no such thing as going astray. ” So if you are free from the idea of directions, you can be free from idea of direction or not the idea of direction by what you are going astray. You can be completely free from the enlightenment or non-enlightenment. Free from the idea of enlightenment or non-enlightenment means enlightenment doesn’t have […] substantiality of its own. Because idea of enlightenment or non-enlightenment is that only when the function of the consciousness operates, so something happens. But the source of the function of the consciousness is nothing. That is called enlightenment, or truth.
So basically, you are free. You are free from any ideas. But actually, practically, there are ideas of enlightenment or non-enlightenment. That’s why we have to take care of idea of enlightenment or non-enlightenment. So if you have non-enlightenment, you have to be awakened, conscious of non-enlightenment. This is our practice.
But strictly speaking, with wisdom or with your intellect, you can see nothing in the bottom of the consciousness. It’s truth. But practically speaking, you can see idea of enlightenment or non-enlightenment. Good or bad, right or wrong. So we have to realize it, we have to deal with it.
35:47
So next,
It is the same with human beings: because of [the notion of] enlightenment, they are confused. But if they are freed from [the fixed notion of] enlightenment…
That’s why I mentioned already, because enlightenment is a state of existence [in] which you completely become one with the truth. At that time, it is called enlightenment. It means when you really go deeply into the consciousness, go to the depth of the consciousness, then that is one, so-called truth. You cannot say the the depth of consciousness is called non-enlightenment. You cannot say so. But it seems to be non-enlightenment, because it’s still consciousness. But the real bottom of the consciousness, real depth of consciousness, cannot be defined. So it’s real truth. There is no definition in the depth of consciousness. Okay?
But intellectually, we want to know the beginning of the non-enlightenment, from where it starts to operate. That is our intellect; we try to know. But if you do it, always you have to be discuss, finding the source, goes constantly. Endlessly it goes. That’s why Buddhism is not researching the beginning of the non-enlightenment, or enlightenment, because enlightenment, non-enlightenment, water and the waves and the wind go together, interdependently, interconnected. So basically, each of them has no substantiality of its own.
So, “It is the same with human beings: because of [the notion of] enlightenment, they are confused. But if they are freed from [the fixed notion of] enlightenment…”
… then there will be no such thing as nonenlightenment.
So if you go deeply at the bottom of the consciousness, there is non-enlightenment.
So if you are free from non-enlightenment, very naturally you can be free from idea of enlightenment.
Because [there are people] of unenlightened, deluded mind, for them we speak of true enlightenment…
But actually… actually there is idea of enlightenment or non-enlightenment. Idea of good and bad, right and wrong. So we have to deal with this idea. That’s why it says, “because there are [people] of unenlightened, deluded mind, for them we speak of true enlightenment…”
… knowing well what this [relative] term stands for. Independent of the unenlightened mind, there are no independent marks of true enlightenment itself that can be discussed.
So, enlightenment or non-enlightenment always connected each other. Without non-enlightenment, you cannot have idea of enlightenment. So, because both occurred from the function of the consciousness. Nothing but cognitive functions. So, each of them doesn’t have its own substantiality. So, they come into existence by only the function of cognitions. Function of the cognitions is activity of cognitions. Activity of the mind.
[Tape break.]
Do you have questions?
42:24
Question: Hojo-san, does that mean then that the first sentence, “because of not truly realizing oneness with suchness, there emerges an unenlightened mind,” that the realizing of oneness and suchness is done unconsciously?
Katagiri Roshi: What is it?
Same person: The very first line.
Katagiri Roshi: The first line. What is the question?
Same person: The first line says, “Because of not realizing oneness and suchness, there emerges an unenlightened mind.” And if, it seems to me you’re saying that consciousness itself, except perhaps at the base, is unenlightened or unenlightenment. So that if we were to realize oneness with suchness, we could only do it unconsciously. That’s correct?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: Oh.
Katagiri Roshi: So at that time, no subject and no object.
Same person: But consciousness could be without subject and object, couldn’t it?
Katagiri Roshi: Consciousness, yes. Consciousness immediately dichotomizes subject and object.
Same person: Oh, I see. So there’s no such thing as conscious unity.
Katagiri Roshi: No, in the conscious level there is no unities, no idea of unities. That is immediately you can do it. That is the character of consciousness.
Same person: Well, then is consciousness different from awareness?
Katagiri Roshi: Uh… your question is consciousness is it different from awareness?
Same person: Right.
Katagiri Roshi: Uh-huh. Awareness of consciousness is also nothing but the activity of cognition. So awareness of the mind, awareness of the mind. Awareness of consciousness.
Same person: Well, no. I’m just thinking of awareness of the non-duality of the world.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: There is an awareness of that, right? It is all in the dark.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, yes. That is called enlightenment, the idea of enlightenment. Okay?
Same person: But that’s not conscious?
Katagiri Roshi: It’s consciousness, still it’s consciousness, because awareness comes up, comes into existence through the function of the cognitions, activity of cognitions.
Same person: Ohh.
Someone: So did you say that awareness is the idea of enlightenment?
Katagiri Roshi: Still awareness [is] the idea of enlightenment. So consciousness, that’s why idea of enlightenment or non-enlightenment.
Someone: It’s just an idea.
Katagiri Roshi: It’s an idea. It’s intellectual understanding.
So, the true dharma can be realized in its oneness, means exactly one. No idea. That is so-called silence, and truth, we say so. Truth which is one.
For instance, when you become one with exactly death, you cannot say death. When you become exactly one with sleeping, you cannot say sleep. No idea of sleep. No idea of the function of the consciousness. Nothing. So that is exactly oneness with the truth.
But from this, from that situation, the idea of enlightenment or awareness or not-awareness comes up.
Do you understand? Is that alright?
Someone: If you’re one with death or one with sleep, that’s different from being completely awake.
Katagiri Roshi: Different. Oneness, exactly different. Oneness with the death is exactly different from awareness of death.
Someone: Right. But enlightenment is being completely awake.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, awake.
Someone: But you can’t know about it.
Katagiri Roshi: So still it’s not real enlightenment. [Sigh.] Real enlightenment is exactly non-enlightenment.
Someone: ohhh…
Katagiri Roshi: No idea of enlightenment. That is very silence.
For instance, when you do gassho, and then you are awake, […] for enlightenment … of gassho. So you say, and also you experience feeling peace, feeling peaceful and harmonious, exactly. And then we say, “I attain enlightenment!” But it’s not. It’s an idea of enlightenment. [He laughs.] Do you understand?
But real enlightenment is just quiet. Very quiet. Just do it. It’s moving, constantly. Do you understand?
Someone: It seems to me there’s awareness without idea. But it seems to me you’re saying there’s no awareness without idea.
Katagiri Roshi: No idea of awareness. But no idea of awareness is grounded on the idea of awareness. That’s why it’s connected.
Because the silence of the gassho, and then you can feel, you can awaken. You can awaken gassho. That’s why there is the idea of enlightenment coming up, the idea of awakening coming up. But simultaneously, when you feel peaceful through the gassho, you mean it’s idea. But real gassho as a silence is there, with the idea of gassho. So, […].
In other words, when you sleep. You don’t know who you are. You cannot know who you are. You cannot know the idea of sleep. But, it is silence. But, it’s there. Because you sleep.
Someone: It sounds like you’re saying that enlightenment is really like sleep.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. Exactly.
Someone: But you’re always telling us to wake up!
Katagiri Roshi: Hmm?
Someone: You’re always telling us to wake up.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah. Wake up, because confused. [They laugh.] If you live always that silent world, you don’t know what you should do. Because everything [is] nothing. So you…
Someone: If we wake up, we’re in ignorance.
Katagiri Roshi: You’re in ignorance. That’s why you have to deal with ignorance.
Someone: How?
Katagiri Roshi: That’s why we have to do zazen. Okay? [He laughs.] Day by day.
But when you do zazen, simultaneously, that is nothing but the delusions, so called, you’re confused by idea of enlightenment or non-enlightenment. Lots of things come up. Okay? But when you do zazen exactly there, there is a silence of zazen. Which makes you exactly stable. Peaceful. Harmonious.
Someone: And unconscious.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, unconscious. But immediately you can feel good. And then, this is delusions. Because it is nothing but function of your cognitions. Pretty sticky stuff.
[Laughter.]
Someone: Yeah.
Katagiri Roshi: Very tricky. If you go this way, you can go this way, but immediately you are bounced.
Someone: Yeah.
Katagiri Roshi: You are bounced to the other side. And then you can go. And then immediately you can see it, but immediately you are bounced. So you cannot stay either one of them. This is the interdependent co-origination. This is the basic nature of existence.
That is explained as [the] example of the relation between the wind and the water and waves, in this book.
Someone: Could you say then that the waves…
Katagiri Roshi: Waves of consciousness.
Someone: … waves recognize that the water was there after the fact? I mean, it’s when you have a wave that you knew that you are in the water, that you are the water.
Katagiri Roshi: Uh-huh.
Someone: Okay. But before you have the waves, there is nothing.
Katagiri Roshi: Nothing.
So before the waves come out, waves, you know, water is very still. It means the truth.
Someone: But nobody knows that.
Katagiri Roshi: Nobody knows. But there is a possibility of the waves. Waves come from, waves are within that truth. When the time is ripe, conditions arrange, it comes up.
So, samsara, delusions, deluded world comes up. Where does waves, deluded world exist? In the truth.
Someone: Is that why you say real enlightenment is non-enlightenment?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah. Idea comes up.
Someone: You said real enlightenment is non-enlightenment.
Katagiri Roshi: Real enlightenment is silence, completely free from, no idea, free from idea of anything.
Someone: It really doesn’t help to go deeper and deeper, you know, towards the bottom of consciousness. No matter how deep we go, we’re still in that situation where there is ignorance and enlightenment tied together. I’ve had the idea that as you go deeper, you become more free…
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, free.
Someone: But it doesn’t work that way.
Katagiri Roshi: But free doesn’t mean a kind of avocado seed, you know? Free always something comes up. When you work, when your life operates, it comes up. That is a freedom. But when you don’t, when your life doesn’t work, it doesn’t work.
Someone: No, but I mean… I thought that if you go deeper towards the bottom of consciousness, that then you become freer of unconsciousness.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes.
Someone: But it doesn’t sound as though that’s true. It sounds as though at every point, they’re tied together.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, tied together.
Someone: So there’s no way, it doesn’t matter how deep you go, they’re still tied together.
Katagiri Roshi: It’s tied together, but if you go to the depth of the consciousness, exactly, you are just free from, without any concept, without any definitions.
Someone: Yeah but, then you’re either asleep or you’re not conscious of it. You can’t be conscious of…
Someone: What you’re asking for is to hold to consciousness.
Someone: Yes.
Katagiri Roshi: But you can’t do that.
Someone: You can’t do that. You can be peaceful, but you can’t hold on to it.
Someone: You can’t be aware of being peaceful?
Someone: No.
Katagiri Roshi: No, freedom or the peace, real peace, freedom is something which occurs when you work. When you work. That is nothing but the function.
For instance, if you say, “I am a burglar,” as a subject. But the burglar as a subject cannot exist without his functioning. So you have to steal something, and then it’s called burglar. So subject and functioning always working together. And then, simultaneously, its own object comes up, comes into existence, naturally. So object and subject, function, anyway, comes together, working together.
56:55
Question: I really like Gateway.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: You know, like, always wanted to know.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes.
Same person: But finally he says, “Nothing to be understood, just do it.” What you’re saying is doing.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. Mm-hmm.
So all you have to do is,when you do gassho, gassho must be functions. That’s it. Every day. From moment to moment you do gassho with your whole body and mind, bringing the peace and harmony to your body and mind. Do gassho. That’s it.
Then moment, from moment simultaneously you feel peace, you feel harmony. And then you are stumbling. You are caught by idea. Because that function of the consciousness goes away, you know? Attachment, lust for life, attachment, ignorance, etc. So there is, in the world of cognition, there is something missing, which lets you know not clear idea of the self. So, very naturally, mind itself doesn’t know what it is. But mind is constantly working. So, very naturally, there are the three poisons that come up.
Question: It seems like as human beings, this is the point where we really slip off.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes.
Same person: Because we’re always wanting to know. You know, Western mind, and understand.
Katagiri Roshi: Did you see the diagram drawn by Uchiyama Roshi? And the picture of the pumpkins? And also he says, “One line is always going up or going down.” Do you remember that diagram?
So real peace, real freedom is just like one line, okay? But more or less, we are going up or going down, slipping off this peace, real peace. By experience, by understanding, by awareness, idea of enlightenment, you can go up. “I feel good,” and then you’re going up. But real peace is always silence, that’s why you have to come back to the silence. That is Buddhism says, let’s give away the merit of your practice to emptiness and to others, all sentient beings. This come up, and then giving away the merit of experience to emptiness, silence. That is called eko, we say. Not E-C-H-O, but in Japanese, eko.
So, more or less, we are always going up, going down.
1:00:38
Someone: Practically speaking, does it require more work to be deluded?
Katagiri Roshi: [Laughs.]
In the cognitive world, you know?
Someone: You’re saying yes?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, in the cognitive world.
Someone: Hmm. That would make sense.
Katagiri Roshi: [Laughs.]
So that’s why you are already in the function of the cognition, but right in the middle of the function of the cognition, you can be free from that cognition. In other words, you just stop functioning the consciousness. There is nothing but the function, just the practice activities.
Someone: How can you stop functioning the consciousness?
Katagiri Roshi: That’s why that is samadhi, and wholeheartedness.
Someone: What directs you to stopping the functioning of the consciousness?
Katagiri Roshi: When you say stop, stop means already the idea of stop or not stop. So, the real stop means you just jump into activity of form, activity of you. Just jump into. And then you can be free.
Someone: So if you consciously direct yourself to jump into it… how can you stop the functioning of consciousness if you’re consciously directing yourself to jump into it?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, that is already you really jump into the consciousness, you know, the functioning of the consciousness. That means you can go deeply, depth, you can go deeply, the bottom into the consciousness. So that is a function, or that is activity or process of the practice.
But we are always going up, you know. [Balancing], you go deeply, but simultaneously you can stay with it. That’s why you can balance it. And going back to the conscious world. So always go deeply and balance it and see the consciousness. So always you don’t know, you don’t know the depth of the consciousness. So you’re always thinking in the conscious level. So you don’t know real stop, the real meaning of the stop. You don’t know. But all you have to do is just go deeply, at the bottom of the consciousness. That’s it. That’s why with whole-heartedness, you have to do it. And then you can experience samadhi. That is called samadhi. Okay?
So the idea of stop or not stop is still consciousness. So that’s why the dialogue, and contemplating, extinguish the contemplation. It says it’s not necessary to think of it. Why do you think so? That is when you think so, that is already you are caught by the consciousness.
1:05:02
Question: Roshi, when you first started talking, you divided this [very fast] into two sections. And the first section was that non-enlightenment was based on enlightenment. Will the second section be freedom from the notion of enlightenment?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, the second notion is the process of actualization of enlightenment can be spoken of, because of non-enlightenment.
Same person: Okay.
Katagiri Roshi: That means, do you understand, because of non-enlightenment the process of actualization of enlightenment can be spoken of. Means, within the sleeping there is a power which calls you [to] awaken. So within the sleeping there is a power of awakening. Otherwise you cannot wake up.
Even though you cannot know the function of the consciousness during the sleeping. But there is, anyway, the function of the consciousness exists. Which you cannot know.
Someone: If non-enlightenment makes it possible to speak of enlightenment, then that’s one way you can see that it’s not bad. I mean…
Katagiri Roshi: No, it’s not.
Someone: … the positive aspect is significant.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. Mm-hmm. Pretty positive.
But actually there is non-enlightenment in our everyday life in the samsaric world. So if you don’t take care of non-enlightenment as it is, non-enlightenment goes on constantly.
So non-enlightenment adds a pretty positive, you know, energies, to help your life. But you have to take care of non-enlightenment as it is.
1:07:56
Question: I’m still confused about the analogy between enlightenment and sleep? […] You’re saying that enlightenment is like sleep, in that there’s no separation of consciousness?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: But it seems that in sleep there are big vibrations of consciousness, and we’re just numb to it. But sometimes in sleep you can be aware of it. You can see what you’re dreaming.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. I’m not talking about that one, but what you see if you completely sleep, like a rock. [Laughter.] I’m talking about perfect sleep. [He laughs.]
Someone: Well why isn’t Buddhist practice then sleep?
[Laughter.]
[Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: When you sleep, when Buddhists practice the sleep, so always it doesn’t make sense in your everyday life. Don’t you think so?
Someone: You die.
Katagiri Roshi: You die, suffocated to death, [he laughs,] right in the middle of sleeping. Don’t you think so?
Someone: I don’t know.
Katagiri Roshi: You can know. [He laughs.]
You know, practice, and within the heart of practice, you are really suffocated to death. And on the other hand, if you don’t practice, you’re suffocated to death. [He laughs.] So which is better? Nothing. But where are you? You are either one of them. Don’t you think so?
So you have to deal with both of them. And then right in the middle of hard practice, you can be free from. So that is our practice, anyway. Where is the freedom? Well, what is freedom? Where is it? How can you manifest freedom?
Pretty tricky, huh? [He laughs.]
1:10:27
Question: Hojo-san?
Katagiri Roshi: Hai.
Question: Um… Enlightenment working through unenlightenment, say in discussion, that can be a tool, or that can point to enlightenment beyond unenlightenment, meaning communicating with other people.
Katagiri Roshi: Would you say again?
Question: Okay. Enlightenment through consciousness can be a tool, say in discussion, or through language, in pointing to enlightenment beyond consciousness.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, you can point out. It is nothing but pointing out. Just a finger.
So you can talk about enlightenment through the consciousness, but it is nothing but the finger pointing out. In other words, you’re always hanging around [he laughs] real enlightenment. You never go to the center.
So that’s why discussion is very important, but discussion is going endlessly. It’s pretty hard to know.
That’s why even the Buddhism, studying the Buddhism, still you don’t know how to manifest freedom. You know, where is the freedom? It’s pretty hard to know, through the study of general Buddhism. It’s pretty hard.
Question: Is that study of general Buddhism, like what people did over the years, all those categories, and all those things? Is that in a way no difference really than what we do in the 20th century?
Katagiri Roshi: No. Not difference.
Same person: Not really. We’re doing it in Western psychology, you know, we have all these categories of sleep.
Katagiri Roshi: [Laughs.]
So, but studying the Buddhism is pretty helpful to arrange the function of the consciousness. You know?
Same person: Yeah.
Katagiri Roshi: To know what the consciousness is. And also the philosophy or psychology of Buddhism is not only the explaining the consciousness, explaining the structure of the consciousness, but… talking always [about] how to be free from consciousness, or free from the structure of consciousness.
Same person: It seems like it’s really easy to get hung up there, though.
Katagiri Roshi: Right.
Same person: You know, because even a lot of talks I hear about Buddhism, you know, are real hung up in all of that, and it doesn’t get down to… living…
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, that’s why the more you intellect, the more you don’t know. And then finally you are caught by mysticism, very naturally. In the history of Buddhism, such things always happen.
Someone: What is being caught by mysticism?
Katagiri Roshi: Because you don’t know the intellect, it makes you confused. You cannot stay, your life cannot be grounded on earth. Because earth, the reality of being on the earth is very complicated structures. So very naturally you don’t know what you should do. So very naturally you become mystical because you really want to have a strong power to jump over, you know, be free from this reality, and jumping over to the other shores. So for this, you need a very strong energies and practice, and using lots of means. Very naturally it happens. So mantras, and chanting, and practice hard. You can’t come back to your usual everyday life with relief. You know? It’s pretty hard.
So that’s why you need intellect, but on the other hand you have to let it go. This flexibility is necessary for us.
But you cannot ignore intellect and understand. So you have to know.
But if you do it, you are caught by the intellect. [He laughs.] So that’s where you have to be careful.