The Awakening of Faith – Talk 13: Tathagatagarbha & Alayavijnana
May 24, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Transcript
This transcript is in rough draft stage.
0:00
Katagiri Roshi: The other day, I [talked about] the meaning of the first sentence, that the mind – phenomena, samsara – is grounded on the tathagatagarbha. In other words, I mentioned the meaning of the ground on which samsara is produced – from where samsara comes, how samsara is produced. […] Usually we [understand] samsara [is] coming from the truth, absolute truth itself. But according to […] the absolute itself, it is impossible for us to think samsara comes from the absolute itself. So finally, this Discourse on the Awakening of the Mahayana Faith gets the idea of tathagatagarbha.
This tathagatagarbha is the teaching after investigating again and again human life in reality, instead of human life in samsara [being] analyzed philosophically or metaphysically and trying to understand from where the samsara comes – I don’t think that is the attitude towards human being in this book. Buddhism always directly faces human life, samsara, in reality as it is. That is the most important attitude towards human life.
Buddhism always [says that] because the absolute itself is something which is very difficult to understand. Logically or emotionally, it’s impossible to know what the absolute is, as one, because it’s very vast. It’s very difficult. But we know that the absolute itself is omnipresent. Wherever you may be, whoever you are, all sentient beings are exactly grounded on the absolute – the truth, the same and one ground. And then it is possible for all sentient beings to be. Without the absolute or the truth, it is impossible for us, for all sentient beings to live. That is the truth or the absolute.
But in Buddhism we don’t use [the terms] the truth or absolute. Instead of those terms, we use suchness or thusness. Suchness or thusness is “what is just is”, something like that. Or as-it-is-ness. That is the truth. So suchness and thusness is a little more concrete explanation of the truth or absolute being close between human beings, human life. If you use the truth or absolute, it is kind of pretty far away from us. But thusness or as-it-is-ness is pretty close to us, you know?
So that is the Buddhist terms thusness and as-it-is-ness. In Japanese we say shi-myo. Shi means “the truth”, myo is “thus” – literally “looks like”. Myo has two meanings, one is “looks like”, the other one is “exactly something as it is”. Exactly as it is; total manifestation of something as it is. That is the meaning of myo; we say thusness in English.
So, absolute truth is pretty difficult to say. If you point out “this is absolute,” it is no longer absolute, so that’s why it’s very difficult. Absolute or truth means one – oneness – in which two beings […] live together in peace and harmony. That is one, oneness. That is called truth or absolute. But it’s very difficult to explain what absolute is.
So very naturally, the absolute or truth is something [that] looks like a truth, but it’s not truth. [It] looks like. But if we can experience the fish, birds and sky – Dōgen Zenji mentions in the Genjokoan the birds and the sky: birds manifest [themselves as] the oneness between the birds and the sky. That is oneness, [it] means the truth. But within the manifestation of the truth, there are two beings that exist, birds and sky. But if a bird flies, very naturally the bird creates oneness. The bird’s life is really going in the absolute, becoming one always between the birds and the sky. If you see it intellectually, there are two, birds and sky. But in terms of oneness, bird is not exactly bird: bird is sky. Sky is bird. That’s why a bird looks like a bird, but it’s not a bird – it is sky. Sky looks like the sky but it is not sky, because sky is exactly birds. So that’s interconnection, interpenetration there.
So that’s why myo means “looks like” and also “something manifested as it is, directly”. That is myo of shi-myo.
So, very naturally from the tathagatagarbha, samsara is produced – [that] means tathagatagarbha is another expression for the truth, or for the ultimate pure nature of the mind, veiled in delusion. This is tathagatagarbha.
It is always present in every being; tables, chairs, floors, flowers. In every being we can see the truth. But that truth is not exactly absolute truth, because it is in every being, so it is kind of a [limited] truth. So that’s why in the idea of tathagatagarbha truth is “veiled in delusion”. “In delusion” means already the truth is limited; the truth is manifested […] in certain beings: tables, human beings, and birds, et cetera. […] There is no other way to know the absolute itself, without realizing the truth in every being. So that’s why [in this book it is called by] the term tathagatagarbha.
So tathagatagarbha is the teaching that all sentient beings are already a buddha, regardless of whether you realize or not. In terms of Buddha’s eye, in terms of universal perspective… in the universal perspective, we are already Buddha. We are already Buddha. That is tathagatagarbha. Not absolute truth – “we are Buddha” means you are buddha, that existence of buddha. The bell is buddha, flower is buddha; all are buddha. [That is the meaning of] tathagatagarbha. Regardless of whether you are conscious of it or not, it is the truth, because in terms of Buddha’s eye, in the universal perspective, this is the truth. That’s why this book teaches us we are buddha [by] saying tathagatagarbha.
15:03
So still [it’s] a little bit abstract, philosophical term. Next, we have to understand how tathagatagarbha works in our human life. That’s why next this book has another term: alayavijnana.
So very naturally, vijnana means mind… not mind, consciousness. So this book has another term, a different term, alayavijnana, in order to explain how tathagatagarbha works in us.
Alayavijnana is almost the same meaning as tathagatagarbha, but alayavijnana is a closer idea of understanding tathagatagarbha – a more intimate expression or intimate term, in order to understand what tathagatagarbha is. Alayavijnana is the consciousness which has two aspects – one is the absolute, the other one is samsara. Samsara and [absolute truth]. And then this is mainly alayavijnana focuses on a human life in reality. In other words, you have to face human life in reality: how it is going, what is human life.
So very naturally, to tell the truth, if you look at your life, it’s very difficult for us to believe that our life is really Buddha, or the absolute. Very naturally, if you look at your life honestly, our life is really covered with delusion. That is called ignorance. So alayavijnana kind of has ignorance.
If so, why is it that this discourse [says] that samsara is produced by ignorance, instead of by tathagatagarbha? So, why don’t you say about samsara produced by ignorance? Because honestly if you look at human life, human life is exactly covered with ignorance. So this is also a question in the same as the absolute. But I said before, ignorance is not “original sin”. We usually consciously or unconsciously believe [that], but ignorance is not original sin. In Buddhism ignorance is no root.
If you read the Vimalakirti Sutra, Vimalakirti says that the good comes from no root. Ignorance, any kind of delusions, have no root. And then finally the Bodhisattva asked Vimalakirti, “From where [does] no root come?” So Vimalakirti says, “No root comes from no root.” We believe no root is somewhere, it is something which exists somewhere; but no root is exactly no root.
So ignorance is characterized by no root. In other words, you don’t know from where it comes. So we say beginningless.
If it is beginningless, I think it is endless also. So this is a very interesting point. Beginningless ignorance, and endless ignorance. We have to think about this.
First, if you think ignorance is kind of “original sin”, produced by somebody or something, at that time it’s easy to ask somebody to adjust or to correct or to eliminate it, to remove it. But if there is no beginning, there is no one or nothing you should ask to adjust. Nothing; because it’s beginningless. Simultaneously, if it is beginningless, simultaneously it is endless. So you don’t know how it is going.
So beginningless and endless is nothing to ask somebody, or nothing to do for it. This is an interesting point. But, when the time is ripe and conditions arranged, something happens.
For instance, ignorance is the kind of energy which puts you in [a] deluded world, constantly. While you are deluded, you don’t understand how much you are deluded. You don’t realize. [It’s] just like a dream, or just like sleep. If you sleep, you don’t know you are sleeping. And also, while you are sleeping, you cannot try to wake up; because when you try to wake up, at that time you are waking up already, because you get up from the sleep. So while you are sleeping, you don’t know you are sleeping. But right in the middle of sleeping, if you can think that “I try to wake up,” at that time you are not sleeping. Do you understand? You are conscious of it. So very naturally, you cannot try to wake up. But when something happens, when something is there, then you can wake up.
That is in Buddhism: innen means time and occasion, and cause and secondary cause – first cause, secondary cause – cause and condition. So jisetsu innen: the ji means “time”, setsu means “occasion”, in means “cause”, nen means “condition”. When the jisetsu innen are ripe and arranged, you can wake up.
But how can you get jisetsu innen, time and occasion and cause and conditions?
This is our practice. When the time comes, you can wake up. When the time comes in the morning, at 4 o’clock or 4:30, you can wake up. Even though you don’t have a waking bell, well, when the time comes, you can wake up. But that waking up doesn’t come from your intention. Anyway, when something happens, you can wake up.
So, many conditions there. But human being are a little bit complicated. Time, occasion, and cause and conditions [prompt] change of mind, change of consciousness. And lots of heredity and memories and customs which you have accumulated in the past [are] connected with this. And then, you can have already time, occasion, and conditions, and cause, that you have accumulated already, and also you can create time, and occasion, and cause and conditions for the future. Day by day you create [these]. You live in a certain time and occasion, but on the other hand, you create new time and occasion.
So, when you sleep, you don’t know why you sleep. But on the other hand, you can wake up. When you have a little tension before you go to bed – “I have to get up tomorrow morning” – if you have some tension, these kind of circumstances, very naturally you can wake up when the time comes. Thirty minutes before, or ten minutes before, five minutes before, you can wake up. But when you go home and sleep, what’s the difference? Do you understand? Quite different. Even though the time comes, you still feel sleepy. But when [unintelligble], before the time comes you can wake up. And even though you wake up, you don’t feel so sleepy. Don’t you think so? So, a little bit complicated situation there.
But, mumyo, ignorance, means that it is something you cannot try to wake up, because you are already deluded, you are already going astray in this deluded world. But when the time comes, and when the time is ripe, the conditions arranged, you can wake up. So, all we have to do is, we try to create and produce a nice time, a nice condition, a nice occasion, et cetera. And then, those new time and occasion can help you to wake up.
So that is mumyo. So, mumyo means exactly beginningless, and endless.
So that is the alayavijnana.
So, from this point, it’s impossible for us to think samsara comes from mumyo. No. Because ignorance, mumyo, is beginningless. Because samsara exists on the same and one ground. “Same and one ground” means the basic state of existence which is going constantly; this is the same and one ground.
For instance, when you were born in this world, and then you have grown up to [your twenties], anyway, when you look back your past, you can see there are lots of changes of your life. Physically and mentally, lots of changes. But the idea of change doesn’t exist ignoring the existence of the same and one ground, basically. So, unconsciously or consciously, there is already the same and one ground, which makes a change possible to be. Do you understand? What makes it possible for change to work.
So, that is the same and one ground. So that’s why without this we cannot exist. Without this samsara cannot exist.
So that’s why it’s impossible for us to think samsara [is] coming from ignorance. Because ignorance is beginningless. No, it’s not the same and one ground.
So that’s why very naturally it comes from tathagatagarbha, and psychologically speaking it is called alayavijnana.
33:33
Alright. And also one more point is, “diffuses harmoniously with” [is] wa go in Japanese, literally “peaceful gathering”. We say wa go: wa means “peace”, go means “together”. So, “peaceful gathering”. In English we say “peace and harmony”. But in this book it says “to diffuse harmoniously with”.
This characteristic of wa go is [a] very interesting idea, because constantly it is like pure water. If you put the red ink [into it], whole water becomes red. And then, next moment it becomes water again. Next moment, when you put the blue ink [in], the whole situation becomes blue. So, whatever it is, [whether] it becomes blue or red, always it is the water. Same base, same foundation. So, when it’s blue ink shows, the whole world is blue. That’s it. That is all. Next moment, it shows red ink, and then the whole world is red. But both have the same base, so-called water.
So, ignorance is kind of a wind. Wind comes, and very naturally wave comes up.
The next moment if you wake up from the sleep, very naturally that is [escape from] sleep, so-called ignorance. Because, the waves come to be calm, and [we] return to normal situation of the water. So, very naturally, wa go “peaceful together” means always show one act in a moment. At that time, the whole world becomes red or blue. [The] same base, so next moment, basically always that is pure water. So if you make the red ink, simultaneously it becomes red, next moment you can be blue. Red ink doesn’t stay long. It melts into the water and disappears, is dissipated, melted away. So, red ink comes into, it doesn’t stay long, and melted away. Next moment, you can put the blue, and melted away. But, when you put the blue ink, immediately it’s influencing, so-called “watering”. Watering, influencing. But even the result, so-called “watering”, by which people are influenced, all that is melted away, into the water, and becomes pure water. So, next moment, you put the blue. Something like this.
So that is samsara and also absolute truth are interconnected, interacting, like this. That is called “diffuses harmoniously with birth and death”, samsara. That is characteristic of tathagatagarbha, and also storehouse consciousness, psychologically.
38:52
Okay. I want to say a little bit about the absolute and the tathagatagarbha… something like this…
Let’s imagine a guitar instrument. In terms of the absolute, guitar is not a particular being, it is just a being, the same as other beings. So, you can’t put a certain name on it; [it’s] just a being. In terms of the universal point of view, it’s just a being. So, that is the absolute, or truth, you can say. But on the other hand, this oneness, so-called “just a being”, is something difficult to understand, because it’s vague. So, very naturally, what we can see is individual beings, individual particular beings: tables, the guitars, and the altar, and the floors, like this. That is the world we can contact with, you know, with our consciousness. That’s all. So very naturally, with our consciousness, it’s impossible to know “just a being”, as one. So, very naturally, we can see […] the limits of the truth, limits of being as one, manifested in each individual being. Trees, birds, guitars. That’s why we put the name on it, so-called “guitar”, and through the guitar we can find being as a one.
So, very naturally, guitar is tathagatagarbha. Guitar as a whole is tathagatagarbha. But a guitar as a tathagatagarbha is different [from] being as one. Do you understand that one? And then, next moment, tathagatagarbha, the so-called guitar, starts to work. At that time, it makes sound. That is samsara. If you touch, that is a string, and if you touch the string then the guitar starts to move. The guitar as a whole starts to move, and that makes a sound. This is called samsara.
But, simultaneously, the strings are getting calm and [becoming] quiet. But even though it becomes quiet, I don’t think sound disappears. Still, guitar as a tathagatagarbha still has great capability to work, to move, making a sound. Even though [there is] no sound, it doesn’t mean sound disappears. No. Still sound is there. The voice or sound of the guitar is constantly there. So next moment, if you touch it, sound comes up.
So there are life and death, affirmative and negative. Affirmative means when you touch the guitar, tathagatagarbha starts to work: move, and then make a sound. That is affirmative. You can see, you can hear. But next moment, you have to understand tathagatagarbha which doesn’t work. [That] means it’s quiet. But even though tathagatagarbha becomes quiet, making no sound, it doesn’t mean no sound. Still, there is the possibility of sound there. So, very naturally, that is the possibility of the sound which doesn’t appear, [which] means [the] negative. So always negative, affirmative there. Life and death. Happy or not happy.
So when you feel happy, that is samsara world.
[Tape break.]
… Still happiness [is] there. So we should understand the samsara with two aspects, happiness and not happiness. Self-confidence or not self-confidence. Always.
So that is the samsaric world.
So when the tathagatagarbha moves and vibrates, always it shows two aspects. Self-confidence and not self-confidence. Then through learning both the two aspects, then you can understand the being as one, through the guitar. That is the relationship among the truth [and] tathagatagarbha.
And then, alayavijnana tries to explain how guitar works, how guitar creates sound. That is the structure of the guitar, structure of the tathagatagarbha. That is called alayavijnana. Alayavijnana tries to know the structure of the tathagatagarbha, how tathagatagarbha works, how guitar works. That is, psychologically, this book uses [the term] alayavijnana.
Do you have a question? Is that alright? Do you understand the little difference?
46:28
Question: I have a question about ignorance. Is ignorance also grounded on the absolute?
Katagiri Roshi: Uh, no. It is connected with the tathagatagarbha – alayavijnana, psychologically speaking. Not grounded, because there’s no ground. But it’s always involved in the tathagatagarbha.
Same person: Mm-hmm. Because you said it [wasn’t produced] with the samsara, so I saw it as being a part of samsara… [unintelligible]
Katagiri Roshi: Not part of the samsara; it’s already [that] you are right in the middle of ignorance. Samsara is not a part of ignorance.
Is that what you’re saying? Part of ignorance?
Same person: Well, ignorance is being not samsara or somehow not the creator of samsara but … well, I don’t quite know how to say it, but apart from samsara in some way.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, if you say “cause of samsara”, that is ignorance. But if I say “cause of samsara”, very naturally we set up a dualistic structure of the word; you, “the world comes from ignorance,” like this. But practically speaking, the relationship between samsara and ignorance is not like that. [It’s] always [the] same. Ignorance is samsara itself. But if you see samsara itself, always looking at it very seriously and very honestly, if you look at the samsara world in reality with, what you would say… [There is some discussion about the right word.] … with the gaze of insight, very seriously, very naturally you can see something by which samsara is produced. But that is, in a sense, still a bit intellectual, a very intellectual understanding. Do you understand? Through the actual daily life, if you really see the human life with a very clear eye, clear mind, very naturally you can see the cause of the samsara. Even intellectually. And then that is [when] we put a name on it, so-called ignorance. But ignorance is, we don’t know from where it comes.
And then practically, that ignorance appears as… what would you say? In Japanese, ai means “attachment”, very strong attachment and grasping. This is the contents of ignorance, practically speaking. And then if you look at the aspects of human life based on attachment and grasping, you can see a certain [cause]. That is called ignorance.
And then why is ignorance created? […] According to Twelve Chain Causation: before ignorance, nothing. First of all Buddha brings up ignorance. Because when you are asleep, you don’t know the world before you sleep. Do you understand? You don’t know. After awakening, then you can know.
Is that alright?
[Laughter.]
Question: I was thinking, the samsaric world… Is this an awakening? You would be able to see the samsaric world… well I would like to say without ignorance, because you’ve awakened from sleeping or the dream. So in that sense, they can’t be the same, ignorance [and the samsaric world]. Because the samsaric world always will be there because of the tathagatagarbha. Is that true?
Katagiri Roshi: When you wake up, and there is no ignorance? [Is that] what you mean?
Same person: I think that even with the clarity of an awakening, the samsaric world doesn’t change, you just see it differently. Whereas with ignorance, it’s more like your own perception, that can… can that go away?
Katagiri Roshi: It cannot go away. Because [the ignorance is a thing which is there]. Because you are already sleeping. So, you don’t know.
Same person: Well I guess I don’t understand then, about the difference between ignorance and samsara.
Katagiri Roshi: Ignorance means when you are asleep you don’t know the sleep. That is ignorance.
So you don’t know the world of sleep, and also you don’t know the world before you sleep. In other words, here is a petition, okay? You wake up here, you are normal, and then you get into the sleep, but you don’t know this one, before. How you can get into the sleep, you don’t know. It’s just like a wonderful feeling. [He chuckles.] Particularly you do zazen… [laughter.] And you concentrate, wonderful, and then sometimes you feel good, you know? But that feeling good, you don’t know from where it comes. Does it comes from perfect concentration, or getting into the sleep? You don’t know.
Have you ever experienced this? I experience it pretty often. [He chuckles.] Concentration, pretty good, you know? Sometimes you feel good, wonderful. But it’s not perfect concentration, it is exactly sleep. But I didn’t know that. Sleep or perfect concentration – we don’t know. [He laughs.]
Question: When you wake up about ignorance, you don’t wake up from ignorance, you wake up about ignorance.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, when you wake up, you can be free from sleep, anyway. But it doesn’t mean that ignorance disappears. Still, ignorance is endlessly there.
That’s why we have to awaken to it.
Question: It says that in the Genjokoan, doesn’t it? About an enlightened person is enlightened about ignorance, not about enlightenment.
Someone else: [Inaudible.]
Question: I can’t remember the exact line, but it had to do with completely awakening to ignorance, and not enlightenment.
Question: Roshi, I have a question. You said the other day that the first thing we have to do is totally accept our object, before we do anything else. That’s what you said. Do you remember that?
Katagiri Roshi: [Mm-hmm.]
Same person: In order for me to do that, it requires great faith or great trust, to totally accept every object I encounter. And… from where do you get this great faith and this great trust, to totally accept all these objects?
Katagiri Roshi: I think you should have your own eyes, enough to see the total panoramic picture of the human world, and then you can accept totally. So “you can totally accept” doesn’t mean to accept objectively [or blindly]. So constantly there is some question that comes up – how much we should trust the object, et cetera. Always between the subject and the object, some problem comes up. That’s very common, very common. You cannot escape [that].
But on the other hand, if there is a question, within the question you have to trust and accept and deal with your object with a clear mind. And sometimes you devote yourself, sometimes you have a question that comes up right in the middle of full devotion, a question comes up. That is always. But on the other hand, you cannot be […] ecstatic, or intoxicated, you know, so-called total devotion. No. That is the ignorance, okay? [He laughs.] That’s why very naturally you can see some problems. […] That’s why we have to nurture ourselves constantly: stand up straight and make your mind clear, always. That is our individual practice.
So, in the process of reaching to the spiritual [stage], always some questions come up. How much should I devote? How much should I accept? But within that question, on the other hand, you have to completely accept and do it; do something. Those two aspects come up.
Same person: So, you’re saying full devotion.
Katagiri Roshi: “Full devotion” is not the full devotion you believe, because within the full devotion there is a question. “How much?” You make a question: how much should I trust the object, et cetera. Because that is the samsaric world. So, you live already in the samsaric world.
Same person: That’s not my idea of full devotion. My idea of full devotion is you don’t have any room for a question to come up.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, that is in terms of the Buddha’s eyes, there is no space to think of it. So, just full devotion. But that doesn’t mean ignoring the samsaric world. So always there is a flashing light: “Is that correct?” Or, “Is that right?” Or, “Is that wrong?” Always a flashing light comes up.
So, we have to check. Even though it is a flashing light. Sooner or later it disappears, but it’s a flashing light. As long as it appears as a flashing light, it is something being, so we cannot ignore it.
So, still there is “how much should I”; some question comes up. But, strictly speaking, well, if you see your object, you totally accept, in a sense.
Same person: What do you do with those flashing lights? Just let them go, don’t you?
Katagiri Roshi: Huh?
Same person: What do you do with the flashing lights that come up? You kind of just let it come and go.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, a flashing light always appears and disappears, you know? But, it is not something we should ignore, because it appears in front of you, so you have to pay attention to it.
So in other words, within the total devotion where there is no space to think, there are always signals [or] flashing lights there. That is, well, the samsaric world. But in the Buddha’s eyes, completely there is total devotion. Because whatever kind of flashing lights [there are], when you come to the intersection you should stop. Anyway, stop. Stop means accept; whole devotion. Whole flashing lights: red, blue, and yellow, anyway, accept totally. And that’s “stop it”: total acceptance. And then you can see the flashing lights, blue, red, green, yellow, et cetera.
1:02:45
And, one more point is, samadhi and also spiritual intoxication… [is that what you would you say]?
Audience: That’s it! [Laughter.]
Katagiri Roshi: Samadhi and spiritual intoxication are quite different, alright? Do you understand that?
Someone: I don’t understand either of them.
Katagiri Roshi: Spiritual intoxication is… still pretty good; it’s not so bad, but, uh… [laughter] Still a little bit you show the ignorance aspect of tathagatagarbha. [He laughs.] But, samadhi is exactly samadhi. Spiritual [explication], but each samadhi knows what it is. “Aha, this is spiritual [explication]” – that is samadhi. Samadhi is you just be there; you are sleeping, but you are not sleeping. You’re awake. It’s impossible intellectually, but it is possible with wisdom. You can do it. That is samadhi. So, you just jump into it, but, you are clear.
So, if you read the Diamond Sutra, the Bodhisattva is always right in the middle of darkness, but he is not blinded by the darkness, et cetera. The Diamond Sutra [says it that way].
So that’s why samadhi is very important for us.
Question: Can I ask a question? I want to ask a question about intoxication in general, not necessarily spiritual intoxication. It seems to me like, one thing that happens to me is that I can see that I am intoxicated by something, and that there is attachment and grasping, but that, for some reason, I still have to act it out. Do you know what I mean?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: Like that attachment and grasping still affects me, even though I can see that it’s affecting me. There’s a question in my mind about how to deal with it. It always seems to me like I have to just, like I say, act it out. Even though I know that I’m being stupid, that I have to do it just to find out, to get to the next place. Do you know what I mean? Is there another way to deal with that?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, no. All you have to do is just realize, awaken to it, and then again and again we have to awaken, because ignorance is always working, beginninglessly, endlessly.
So, if you believe “ignorance is always going so let’s forget it,” you know, “[forget] spiritual life and becoming Buddhas” – at that time, ignorance runs wildly. Very naturally you have to deal with ignorance every day, from moment to moment. And then when you awaken to ignorance, at that time, well, [you] can be free from ignorance. In other words, as so far as awakening to ignorance, you can get the merit.
Same person: So it’s not really awakening when we just intellectually realize it. Awakening is something other than that?
Katagiri Roshi: Intellectually what?
Same person: Realize…
Katagiri Roshi: […] If you realize it even intellectually, it’s fine. [That] is also pretty good. In other words, plant the seed in the ground. That’s good. It’s better than nothing, anyway. So, very naturally, it will shoot.
Later, this book [talks] about that stuff […] From now [on], a more complicated explanation comes up about ignorance. [Laughter.] It’s very interesting if you study it step by step. But this is just the introduction, so you have to make each term clear, otherwise later you won’t understand the explanation. That’s why I take lots of time to explain this.
Anyway, the Buddhist practice is emphasizing to awaken. You don’t believe how important awakening is. But for instance, if you eat food, one ball of rice – even though you eat one grain of rice, it makes your stomach full. Don’t you think so? So you have to eat the one grain of rice. Even though one by one, you should eat it. It seems to be so slow, but I don’t think it is slow. It’s very stable, step by step practice.
But a human being doesn’t believe that, because human beings are always grasping [oneness] with attachment, and [grabbing] the whole thing. That is ignorance. Attachment, craving, grabbing one bunch of rice, you know? Well, this is also pretty good, but on the other hand, human life can’t be dealt with in that way always. So, one by one, even though you eat [only] a grain of rice, you should believe that it is making your stomach full.
And also, at that time, a grain of rice which has been on your plate disappears. That means [explication] disappears. “If you eat a grain of rice” means awareness. Anyway, aware; that means “eat a grain of rice”. At that time, a grain of rice which was on the plate disappears. Do you understand? And then, you can feel fullness of the stomach.
But the human being believes that, because we are very crazy, very rushy. We have to practice step by step like this, because we should realize from the bottom of your heart [that] samsara is grounded on ignorance. So within the ignorant world, you cannot be grasping one bunch of rice and gulping [it down]. It’s alright, but it makes you sick sometimes. Craving sometimes makes you sick.
So one by one, anyway. That seems to be very slow practice, but it’s very stable, very clear awakening.
That is Bodhisattva practice. If you read the Diamond Sutra, et cetera, [it says,] “Sooner or later, you can awaken.” Yes, [this is true]. You can awaken, you can be free from.