The Awakening of Faith – Talk 12: Tathagatagarbha

May 22, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi

Previous | Next | List | Series: Awakening of Faith

Transcript

This transcript is in draft stage.

0:00

Katagiri Roshi: Page 36. Yesterday, I mentioned in chosan that I would like to [explain] a little more about the statement, “The mind as phenomena (samsara) is grounded on the tathagatagarbha.”

I think most people have big doubt how the truth relates with the samsaric world. [It is] very difficult to figure out the relationship, how truth comes into the samsaric world. What is the subject which samsara is produced? How [the] samsaric world is produced? It’s very difficult to understand. But we want to know.

For me, for many, many years, I really wanted to fill up that gap between the truth and the samsaric world. Because that is a most interesting point for me. But practically speaking, I think even if you understand intellectually, it doesn’t work actually. Practically speaking, all you have to do is to take care of everyday life with wholeheartedness. That’s all we have to do.

So, [practicing simply]. But still the intellectual sense [isn’t satisfied], so actual practice becomes a little bit shaky. We don’t understand why we have to practice [in this] simple way; why we have to do gassho, why we have to do the daily routine [of everyday life]. Why is it that […] we have to take care of daily routine? Because it is important. [But] we don’t understand this.

But no matter how long we try to explain this… well, it’s very difficult for me to explain, because most people don’t experience what the truth is, and they don’t experience strongly from daily routine how important it is. So it’s pretty hard. So very naturally, teachers and ancestors a little bit force you to do [it]: [saying,] “Even though you don’t understand it, please follow the ancestors’ suggestions” – [like this].

For instance, if you want to be a barber in a barber shop, you have to follow the teacher’s way. Because you have never experienced [that]; so, you should just follow the teacher’s way. And then, you become a barber. But, if we do it in that way, it is fine in a sense, but it is not fine in a sense, because your practice doesn’t satisfy [you] with your life. Lots of questions come up.

That’s why, very naturally, this kind of book is established. So today […] I would like to [talk] about this.

05:18

Yesterday I mentioned the tathagatagarbha is not the same as the truth itself. The truth is exactly truth. I think we have learned [this] before… look at page 32, “The Mind in Terms of the Absolute”. […] This section explains the absolute. You should understand the truth like this.

The first line:

The mind in terms of the absolute is the one world of reality and the essence of all phases of existence in their totality.

What does it mean? This means… look at page 33, the fourth line from the bottom of the first paragraph. It says:

… nor is there anything which needs to be pointed out as real, for all things are equally in the state of suchness. It should be understood that all things are incapable of being verbally explained or thought of; hence, the name suchness.

So, the first point is that the truth is the one world of reality – exactly one world of reality – and the essence of all phases of existence in their totality. That means [there is] no need to point out what is the truth, or no need to explain what the truth is, because [it is] always there. So, no need [for it] to be pointed out as real or [as not] real. It’s not necessary, because it’s always there.

That means [the] absolute is omnipresent as one, one world. And that means you can see this one world. But it’s very difficult to see this one world, so-called truth.

If so, how can we see the one world as the truth? That is the truth manifested in everything. [That] means the truth dwelling in all sentient beings. That’s why here it says it’s not necessary for all things to be pointed out as real, because all things are equally in the state of suchness. Because one world as truth is omnipresent. Omnipresent means you can see the truth in everything; you are in contact with table, book, whatever it is. That is the meaning of omnipresent.

You should remember this, okay? That is the first point.

The second point is, the truth is… look at the page 32, the third line from the bottom:

That which is called “the essential nature of the Mind” is unborn and is imperishable.

And then later, this characteristic of the absolute will be explained in many ways, from different angles: it’s not one, it’s not different, et cetera… it’s not long, it’s not wide… anyway, they explain it here in page 33.

Anyway, the characteristic of the truth is something unborn. “The world was born and then the truth comes,” or “somebody was born in this world and then he brings that truth into the human world” – I don’t think this is the truth. Even [if there is] nothing in this world, truth is truth, always.

So, it’s not something coming from one place to another, two minutes ago or two minutes later. No. That is called not born. So [it’s] completely beyond born or unborn. It’s always there. Because that is [one], it’s not necessary to be pointed out as real.

And imperishable means completely regardless of whether you believe in or not, or if you try to take it away or you try to hold on. Nothing to do; [whether] you believe or not, it’s there, constantly. Or it is not something you can throw away. Or it is not something you can participate in from now. Or it is not something from which you can escape, or which you can get into now. No.

So, this is the truth. This is called unborn and imperishable; this is the characteristic of the truth.

That’s why it’s pretty hard to know. But this is called one mind sometimes, because it’s very simple. Because everyone, all sentient beings, exist just like this, on the basis of this absolute truth. That’s why we say one mind. One mind means completely beyond your speculations, before you think it, there is one world.

So, that is the truth. But if it is very difficult to know that one world, is there no way to know? Yes, there is. That is the truth manifested in everyday life: human beings, birds, nature… gassho, and having a meal, getting up in the morning, daily routine… whatever you do, always there is the truth.

And that’s why here it [says it] like this. So you should remember this.

So, from this point – do you believe that this kind of truth can create the samsaric world?

In other words, by the activity of this truth, absolute truth, do you believe the samsaric world is produced, or created?

No. Because absolute truth has nothing to do. It doesn’t do anything. Just be there. Because it is unborn, imperishable. Nothing.

That’s why… I forget the Western philosopher’s name… Kierkegaard? [The students pronounce ‘Kierkegaard’, and he laughs.] Yes. He says, “No God.” “No God” doesn’t mean to destroy or ignore God. He knows [what] real God is. That’s nothing. Buddha doesn’t do anything. But Buddha is constantly there.

So, that’s why if we say “no God,” we are really [mad] at this philosopher, but I don’t think it’s negative. And [that the] absolute is nothing to do for you, that doesn’t mean ignoring your existence. That means, completely beyond your speculation, the absolute is always with you. [It is with you] before you think, “the absolute creates samsara” – that is already speculation! Or, “the absolute is with me now” – that is also speculation. But before you say any words like this, “absolute with me now,” it is already words. The absolute is already with you, constantly. So that’s why unborn, imperishable.

So from this point, it’s impossible for us to understand, even philosophically, that the absolute creates samsara. No. The absolute is very quiet, dynamical, omnipresent – but it doesn’t do anything, just be there. Maintaining it’s own life. Just maintaining.

That is the truth. If so, you cannot say “truth creates samsara”. Some Buddhist scholars understood that the samsaric world is created by the activity of the absolute truth. But that is a little bit of a misunderstanding.

If so, that’s why this discourse finds out another category so-called tathagatagarbha.

19:26

The tathagatagarbha is a very interesting teaching. In terms of general Buddhism, this idea is very important. If you understand the idea of tathagatagarbha, I think you can taste a little bit the meaning of Shōbōgenzō, the meaning of time-being mentioned by Dōgen, et cetera. You can see a little bit. That’s why this discourse brings up another term, so-called tathagatagarbha.

Tathagatagarbha is the truth dwelling in… us, and all beings. [It is not the] abstracted idea of the principle or action – no. Tathagatagarbha is the real, very important ground of life. It is not an abstract idea.

You should remember this: Buddhism doesn’t investigate process – the process of how truth comes to [or] joins the samsara, or samsara joins to the truth. Not process of. That is philosophy. Intellectually we say, if you move from A to B, what is the A, what is the B? And then how can you move to B? Et cetera. This is our understanding, intellectual [unintelligible]. But Buddhism doesn’t explain anything in that way. Buddhism accepts […] real reality as it is, right now, right here. In other words, we have to see the interacting relations among the many conditions in terms of the reality as it is, which is constantly arising. Not the process of how to arise, how to move.

So, Buddhism, anyway, jumps into the reality as it is, and then, learns how it is structured.

That’s why daily routine is very important. In terms of our sense of human body, daily routine is a small detail for us, but daily routine is not so different from a professional job you have. [Unintelligible] is not different from Himalayan mountains. So I think that you have to understand the practice in reality as it is, instead of a certain investigative process of how to create [these practices]. Why? The reason why it is so small, in comparison with the Himalayan mountain, et cetera – this is our intellectual system. But that is a philosophy: you can build up big mansions, so-called philosophy, psychology, etc. But Buddhism always participates directly first, reality as it is. And then research, investigate, understand the structure of that reality, among the many conditions. Because there are many conditions there. Cause, secondary cause, first cause – many, many conditions. So that is always the Buddhistic attitude.

So from this attitude this term comes up, so-called tathagatagarbha. Because if you look at yourself, you cannot analyze your reality, from where it comes, what kind of characteristics you have. You cannot judge yourself on the basis of one-sided ideas, so-called “good boy” or “bad boy”. You cannot do it. So if you look at yourself in reality as it is, I think you have always two things: the samsaric world, and also something more than the samsaric world.

The samsaric world is suffering, but more than suffering. There is some important thing, more than the samsaric world you really hate. Because no matter how long you hate it or you try to escape, still your existence goes on and on, wherever you may go. So, what do you mean? In terms of the samsaric world, are you judged as a bad boy? If so, is that it? That is your life? No. Even though in terms of the samsaric world someone judges your life as bad, still you can survive, you can go any place. Your life goes on and on. If so, there is something in your life more than a sense of judgment, evaluation; more than the samsaric world. That is called truth itself – truth which is found in life.

But this truth, if found in your life, is not actual truth. This is your truth. This is the truth you can find in your life.

The problem is that people believe that truth dwelling in individual life is real truth, as one-world. That’s why we fight, you know? [If] you find the truth in your life, that [is a] limited understanding of truth, through your life.

So you should still take lots of time to refine this understanding of the truth found in your life. Philosophically, psychologically, religiously – whatever it is – you have to find it and polish and refine it, until it becomes one world. Until you become living in peace and harmony with all sentient beings, you should continually refine the understanding of the truth, understanding of the universe.

But usually people always believe that understanding of the universe or the truth, which seems to be the truth. But it’s not! If you [believe that], it becomes a cause of problems. That’s why in the human world [we are] always fighting.

And also you can find the truth in others’ life, too. You can find the truth in the tables, you can find the truth in nature. […]

So, that truth is called tathagatagarbha because that truth is found in everything, and simultaneously it is limited by individual life. That’s why the truth [is] veiled in delusion – we say so. That is called tathagatagarbha.

That tathagatagarbha is your life in reality as it is. If you look at your life directly.

30:22

So far we have questions about the tathagatagarbha. [Do] you know the difference between truth itself and tathagatagarbha? Do you have a question?

Question: [Unintelligible] not tathagatagarbha but the truth as phenomenal world, it sounds so dualistic: the absolute is not samsara, …

Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, it’s not dualistic, so I have to explain the next [part], the so-called harmony – the harmony and peace. In this book, […] on page 36 it says, “diffuses harmoniously with birth and death.” So I asked you the other day the meaning of “diffusing harmoniously with”? In the original text it used the word peace, or harmony, but this translation says it like this. So I have to explain that peace and harmony, okay?

Are there any questions?

Question: I still don’t understand how the samsaric world comes from the absolute truth, which doesn’t do anything but maintain itself.

Katagiri Roshi: Maintain itself, and also [is] omnipresent. Omnipresent is everywhere. That is “maintain constantly”. Okay?

Question: Can you say the samsaric world does not [unintelligible]…

Katagiri Roshi: No. Does not.

Same person: Then where does it come from?

Katagiri Roshi: That’s why, if we want to know what is the subject which samsara is produced, that is “what is the subject?” That subject is so-called tathagatagarbha.

Same person: [Unintelligible.]

Katagiri Roshi: Not “comes from”. [He laughs.] But if you say so, yes, it comes from tathagatagarbha.

I explained [why we] use tathagatagarbha. What is the Buddhist attitude? Do you understand this one? You always question, “somebody created this one,” or “this one comes from this somebody.” This is [very delusive], alright? This is very philosophical. If you research something, you never understand religious life – because that is your discriminating mind, [et cetera]. No, you don’t understand. But you should pay careful attention to something more than that. What is it? What do you have to pay attention to?

Question: The samsara and […] are ignorance…

Katagiri Roshi: No, that is another subject. I am talking about in order to understand the human world in the relation between the samsara and truth, what kind of attitude you should take toward human life. How should you investigate? I told you.

Same person: … through the manifestation of tathagatagarbha in your…

Katagiri Roshi: It’s [not] where tathagatagarbha comes up [or] how, why, the tathagatagarbha comes up. The tathagatagarbha is created through the Buddhistic attitude towards human life, which is quite different from the usual philosophy. Do you understand? I told you, anyway, a few minutes ago… [Some laughter.]