The Awakening of Faith – Talk 10: Time and Ignorance
May 16, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
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Katagiri Roshi: […]
The other day, I explained a little bit about phenomena. Phenomena is the samsaric world. And the samsaric world is the world where we are related very closely with discriminating mind. That world is called time. The world is going by time. The samsaric world is time.
In [the] common sense, if you look at your life, where you are, it goes without saying that we are always in the present. Okay? So I say nowness. We are now.
So the other day I explained about nowness. Do you remember what I said?
Someone: [Unintelligible.]
Someone: There are two kinds of nowness.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm; two kinds of nowness.
One is what?
Someone: Being in the stream of time?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm; being in the stream of time. That [kind of] time is […] the moment, because that nowness is time in terms of the relationship between past and future. Very naturally, the present in relation with the past and future is nothing but the moment. Alright? This is the present you believe.
So the present you believe is not something you can really depend on, because it’s the moment. It has only the length of the moment: very short.
But we don’t believe that. Consciously or unconsciously, we believe the present has a long length of time; so-called today, so-called hours, et cetera. But I don’t think this is the present.
So the present you live in is nothing but the length of the time of the moment. That is the place you live. So very naturally that is [that this] time, nowness, is going in the samsaric world.
And the second nowness is what?
Someone: Operating time.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes.
Someone: Where you aren’t swept away. You have control.
Katagiri Roshi: So, what do you mean? “Nowness [in which] you operate time.” Do you understand that? “Not swept away [by] the time” – what do you mean?
Someone: You’re in the stream of time but you’re rowing the boat… [unintelligible]
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Concretely speaking, in your daily life, what do you do? What do you mean, “rowing the boat”?
Someone: You take care of things as they come up.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Well, everyone does that. But with what kind of attitude should you do it? What spiritual and physical attitude should you have when you deal with [things]?
Someone: Well, compassion, where you and the object…
Katagiri Roshi: Well, compassion, yes… but compassion is another aspect of attitude. But in a more concrete way?
Someone: Mindfulness?
Katagiri Roshi: Mindfulness; mm-hmm…
So… when you are mindful of doing something, at that time, how is time going? Which of the two has priority? Time, or you?
Someone: You.
Katagiri: Yes. Not time; you. But “you really act initiatively” means using the time. You must be always subjective. You cannot lose the subjectivity under [any] circumstances. If you lose sight of yourself, that is called you are in the stream of time.
That is the samsaric world. You are there, but simultaneously you can use the time. Do you understand? Initiatively; that means you must be always there, constantly present as subjectivity, as you are, always.
That practice is called mindfulness, [someone] says. When you practice mindfulness, where are you?
Someone: Completely right now.
Katagiri Roshi: Right. Completely right now. Is that for a moment, or… what? Can you be nowness for a moment, or what?
Someone: Eternally.
Katagiri Roshi: “Eternally”! Do you understand that? If you practice mindfulness of doing something, then you must be always right-now-right-here. [Does that mean] the moment? Is that nowness the length of a moment? If you believe that, that nowness you live in is nothing but the samsaric world. So if you are in the samsaric world, why do you have to practice mindfulness? Practice of mindfulness completely goes beyond the samsaric world, even though you are living there.
So, you are in the samsaric world, but you cannot be enslaved by the samsaric world. You must take the initiative.
That is, Unmon says, “I use the twelve hours.”
11:30
So you should understand this through the practice.
For instance, yesterday I [said], [if] your activity must be constantly on a schedule, at that time you believe your life is really tossed away by the schedule. So you believe you don’t have the subjectivity. But you must be subjective; even though you are always on the schedule, you must be yourself; you must be subjective, constantly. That point is not a matter of discussion; you have to do it, every day.
So you should learn what it is. I can tell you, I can explain it like this, but that is my experience. So you should taste it from your practice.
So what is the nowness which is called eternal? What is it? Why do you have to practice mindfulness? If you are always in the samsaric world, why do you have to do it?
Okay, that’s why the other day I mentioned [that] nowness is that which is always in the present. That present is not the present in relation with the past and the future, which is called the samsaric world. Because you are practicing mindfulness – in other words, samadhi. You are constantly dwelling in samadhi there. At that time, it is eternal.
So this eternal world, so-called nowness, which is always eternal […] If you are always nowness, [always] in the nowness – can you explain that nowness? Maybe so. But no matter how long I explain, that is nothing but the explanation of nowness. Even though [it is an] explanation of nowness, it doesn’t hit the mark. Very naturally you can explain the nowness if you experience it, but the explanation of nowness is doesn’t hit the mark. So very naturally, no matter how long you speak of nowness which is eternal – it’s nothing. So it’s really [sneaky].
So real nowness is speechless speech. That means there is no nowness, no conception [or] perception of nowness, but you can be always in nowness. So, in words: “no nowness”. But practically, you are there.
Ignorance: you don’t know what ignorance is. Later today I will explain. It’s very vast… vague, but [it’s] always there, in your life. The same applies to eternal nowness. We don’t know what eternal nowness is, but you are here. You can do it.
So that’s why real nowness is really speechless speech. [It is] always talking about nowness, real nowness, through your body and mind, if you practice this. People can feel that; people can appreciate this practice you do. That is really nowness.
And the Buddha himself: if you say Buddha, Buddha has that nowness constantly. Nowness constantly, which is silent, which is quiet – because it’s speechless. But it’s there; speechless speech. The real nowness as speechless speech is always stored in the Buddha’s heart.
And then this Buddha, physically, [is] connected with all sentient beings. When he is connected with all sentient beings, he is not in the samsaric world, he is always in the nowness. If you are always in the nowness, your effort is not effort. Your energy is coming up naturally as it is. Just like a stream of water; gushing out of the stream, just like that.
But in the samsaric world, unenlightened human beings always try to make an effort. So it makes you exhausted. But Buddha himself is always standing in nowness, and then [is] connected with all sentient beings. So [he is] physically connected with all sentient beings, but he is always in nowness, not in the samsaric world.
But according to our [point of view], we say, “Oh, Buddha is in our life, in our world” – because Buddha is always connected with all sentient beings, helping. But the spiritual attitude, spiritual security, is just going naturally as [it is]. So, no problem. No samsaric world. But in terms of our [point of view], we believe, “Oh, Buddha is just like us, living in the human world.” And then we become familiar with the Buddha, and then we want to approach to this kind of Buddha. That is called Buddha’s skillful method to save all sentient beings. But Buddha himself is very straight, very straight. Whatever you say, [however] you express your being – “Oh, you are Buddha. You are just like me, just like a human being. Thanks” – whatever you say, Buddha is always in the nowness. Otherwise Buddha cannot help.
For instance, if you are a psychologist, or if you are a teacher, [trying] to help somebody. If you are tossed away by or if you really jump into the other’s suffering, then you cannot help. You have to jump into connection with the person, but you must be always standing up in nowness. Do you understand that? You must be you, but it’s not always creating a gap. You connect, you jump into, but you are always quiet. And then you can help.
But as a third [party], if you see that situation, [you think] that [this person] as a psychologist is always jumping into human suffering and helping; jumping into the samsaric world, [someone’s] suffering, and helping. But I don’t think so. He is always […] in nowness. And then at that time he can see the overall picture, the panoramic picture of human life, human suffering.
This is Buddha. That is called skillful method; Buddha showed that.
You can show that. If you really want to help or educate somebody, you must be Buddha, like this.
But more or less, you can experience [this] “this is Buddha”. [Because] Buddha is not something extra or apart from you; you are Buddha. Anyway, […] the Buddha is always operative, constantly, in each one of us. Because you have to connect with all sentient beings and help. How can you help? That is Buddha’s skillful method, to save all sentient beings.
And then that’s why, in a Buddha statue, the Buddha statue is always Buddha, but the Buddha statue always has a human shape. A Buddha statue is something more than a human shape. But if you don’t make the Buddha following the human shape, you don’t feel familiar with it, because the Buddha becomes something different from human beings – that’s why you don’t feel [comfortable], you don’t want to approach it. So that’s why the Buddha appears as a human being. But on the other hand, if you look at the Buddha statue, there is something more than a human shape. That’s why that Buddha statue becomes an object of worship.
If you want to make a Buddha statue out of wood or metal, whatever, you have to carve the human shape, [and] simultaneously you should put the spirit there. Not the Buddha’s spirit that some other people have; your spirit, as a Buddha, should be put into it. At that time, you can create the human shape, [and] simultaneously there is something more than the human shape.
Even gassho: this is [something] you do. So very naturally [my gassho is] Katagiri’s gassho, but there is something more than Katagiri’s gassho. That gassho, [which is] more than Katagiri’s gassho, cannot be explained. But it’s there, if you do it.
Whatever you do, that is always important. You must be Buddha, but you cannot always stay with the Buddha without connecting with all sentient beings; you must be always Buddha but you have to connect with all sentient beings. At that time, how do you connect with all sentient beings? You [are] constantly Buddha.
[…] That is nowness. That’s why the practice of mindfulness, and also being present right-now-right-here, is important. It’s not a kind of religious teaching which is [brainwashing you], okay? Or which is making your consciousness blind. If you practice like this, your mind becomes more clear; finally your consciousness starts to work. People don’t believe [this]; if I suggest to do this, [they think it] is kind of [like] army training. But I don’t think so.
So, this is nowness. In the common sense, you are always in two kinds of nowness. And then: which would you like to choose? Nowness [while] being in the stream of time? Or nowness [in which] you operate time? It really depends on you – whatever you may be. And then, that practice creates a quite different human life which is blooming in the future, from moment to moment.
But look at human beings, the human world. Usually people are just struggling in the realm of nowness, in being in the stream of time; that’s it. That is the common sense; if you look at yourself, where you are, this is nowness. Always in nowness – but you have to know what the nowness is. That’s why I explain a little bit.
And then today, I want to say a little bit [more about] time, because nowness is time. So how does Buddhism look at time?
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In the Abhidharmakosha, it says that time doesn’t have its own nature, its own substance, but time is produced by all beings. All beings means all things, so-called dharmas – with the ‘s’, dharmas. Time is produced by the dharmas; that is all beings, all things.
So, what the dharmas, “all things” means… Do you understand all things? Time doesn’t have its own nature. Well, what is time? Do you understand this “time”? If time doesn’t have its own substance, can you explain what is the source of time? Is it possible for us to say something about the source of time?
Yes? Can you? […]
Someone: Could you say whatever exists is time?
Katagiri Roshi: Well no, I am talking about the statement of time according to Abhidharmakosha, saying time doesn’t have its own substance. If so, can you explain about the source of time? Can you see the source of time? Or can you believe that there must be a kind of a source of time?
Someone: If there isn’t any time, how can it have a [beginning]?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Pretty good.
Someone: It seems like it is something that we sort of come up with in our minds […]
Katagiri Roshi: Any other?
Someone: It arises from beginningless [past].
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Or does it? [He laughs, and others laugh.]
That means that it doesn’t have its own substance.
Someone: Right, [unintelligible]…
Someone: That means it doesn’t have a source?
Katagiri Roshi: It doesn’t have a source! Don’t you think so?
Someone: What kind of time are you talking about, Roshi?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, according to the Abhidharmakosha. […] Time doesn’t have its own substance. That’s why time is produced by the change of all things. Alright?
Do you understand? Is that alright? If so, “time is produced by all things” means – well, what do you mean by “all beings”, “all things”, for example?
Someone: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. How about this: “time is produced by the change of all things.” What do I mean, for example?
Someone: Well, everything that has substance has a beginning and an end, or appears and disappears. So the duration of its manifestation would be time.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Well, what changes?
Someone: Well, anything that has…
Katagiri Roshi: Subject or object?
Someone: Object.
Katagiri Roshi: Object. All things. Okay?
All things you can see… [By] the change of all things, time is produced. That is what Abhidharmakosha says. Alright?
If so, for example… This kind of thing, according to Buddha’s teaching, that is called “all things are impermanent”. Like this. So your objects are impermanent. All right?
Or… This is kind of… the change of the objects you can see through the six senses, and also the change of the four seasons, the change of nature, and also the evolution of creatures. In other words, by the evolution of creatures, or by the change of nature, the change of the four seasons, time is produced.
If so, this time is kind of the time in physics. According to Buddha, “All things are impermanent.”
So […] the other, the Vijñānavāda, which means the Discourse on Mere Consciousness – Vijñānavāda shastra, that is the Discourse on Mere Consciousness – or this, the Daijōkishinron, The Awakening of Mahayana Faith. According to the Discourse on Mere Consciousness and also this book, The Awakening of Mahayana Faith, they understand that time is produced by the change of consciousness. Alright? The change of consciousness, the change of discriminating mind. That is most important in this book.
So, from this point, by change of the mind, time is produced. This is very natural. According to the twenty-four hours, through your clock or watch, you can see the time. The clock is your object. But if you don’t have a clock, you cannot know the time. But even though you don’t have a clock, you can notice the time. How can you notice the time? Even though you don’t have a watch, how can you know it?
Someone: [The sun moves.]
Katagiri Roshi: This is also a pretty good idea of time in physics. Don’t you think so? Yes, this is pretty nice.
[What if] there were no sun? If you are confined in a jail which is completely dark, nothing; how can you know time?
Someone: It still changes.
Katagiri Roshi: What changes?
Someone: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Sure, that’s true. Change of your what? Your body.
[…]
You feel hungry, even though you are in a dark room where you cannot see the sun, where you cannot see anything, you cannot think anything, but you still feel time because when you feel hungry, it’s time to have a meal, so-called lunch, dinner, et cetera.
But that is the physical body. The physical body is just the physical body, you know, just working. But who knows you are hungry?
Someone: You do.
Katagiri Roshi: You do. Yes.
Someone: Mind.
Katagiri Roshi: Mind! Yes, consciousness, discriminating mind, knows that you are hungry. So, even though you are always in a dark room, still you can know time, because [of the] change of mind.
Someone: Is that a source of time?
Katagiri Roshi: No, no, not source. I am talking about what is time like. Does it have its own source, or substance, or doesn’t it have a source? If it doesn’t have a source, how is the time produced? That’s why I am talking about this.
But if you faint – what’s happening?
Someone: Time disappears.
Katagiri Roshi: Disappears. Right. Don’t you think so? If you faint, your time disappears. What do we mean, time disappears?
Someone: You have no recollection of time?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Someone: Consciousness.
Katagiri Roshi: Consciousness! Yes. “Time disappears” means your stream of consciousness stops. Do you understand? [Blocked]. And then, time goes.
So, that’s why time is produced by change of the mind, consciousness. Alright? That’s really true, don’t you think so?
So this book is very interesting, because human beings can be seen, can be understood in terms of change of consciousness. That is the point this book always concentrates on.
But unfortunately this book doesn’t [talk about] how the human mind works in human society. It doesn’t [talk about that] – just analyzing and understanding human beings in terms of consciousness. So, it’s a wonderful understanding, but not a concrete way of living. When you join human society, it doesn’t explain [about that]. So just understanding human beings in terms of consciousness; that is a very nice book.
So, that’s why time is produced by the change of consciousness.
43:37
And then, look at our consciousness.
Consciousness is always going, moving, constantly. Whatever you feel, under all circumstances, consciousness is always working, operating. This is wonderful in a sense, because the continuous working of human consciousness creates human culture, the discriminating mind, et cetera. But, on the other hand, [it is] very difficult. Because, under all circumstances still you can create the human culture, you can go any place. But a human body doesn’t develop under certain circumstances. If you become sick, it’s very difficult to think [it’s a] wonderful world, because you cannot develop yourself, you know? So if the human body becomes sick, so-called [unfavorable] circumstances, [it’s] very difficult to develop human life.
But on the other hand, the conscious world is quite different from the physical world. Even though you are sick, or even though under an unfavorable situation, or even though under a very dangerous situation, still you can think, you can develop your life, develop human life. That’s why we constantly create human culture. But on the other hand, it’s wonderful, because it’s giving the vitality to live…
[Tape break.]
… It makes you be up in the air always, far from [a] realistic way of life, but on the other hand, that consciousness always gives you vitality to live. That’s wonderful.
So, the characteristic of consciousness is [that it is] constantly working. It is good, but on the other hand, it is not good. That’s why we have to make our mind calm, and understand human life. The calmness of your mind makes you stand up straight, right now, right here, constantly. That is nowness [in which] you operate time.
So that’s why we do zazen.
But if you do zazen, do you think your mind can be completely calm? Can you believe that?
Someone: […] Why couldn’t it be?
Katagiri Roshi: Why… ?
Same person: Why would it not be possible?
Katagiri Roshi: It’s possible.
Same person: Oh, I see.
Katagiri Roshi: It’s possible. But I am talking about your experience. [Laughter.] I am talking about your consciousness. Can you believe the mind becomes calm in zazen?
Someone: [Unintelligible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Ah! [He laughs.] Any others?
Well, […] yes, if you do zazen, your mind becomes calm. Okay? But right in the middle of calmness, still you cannot know what the calmness is, because it’s pretty tricky. You don’t know what the calmness is. If you get the calmness, it’s not calm. Don’t you think so? You say, “I get the calmness!” At that time it’s not calm, [he laughs,] because you stirred up the calmness!
Can you see that kind of mind operating constantly like this, if you do zazen like this? So, the more you try to make your mind calm in zazen, the more you can see the operation of your mind.
And [according to] this book, [you] have to make your mind calm, but the more you make your mind calm, the more you can see the mind which you cannot make calm. In other words, your mind seems to be calm, but [it is] not calm actually; it means still there is the minute functioning of the change of the consciousness there.
And then, right in the middle of calmness, you immediately say, “I get the calmness!” Then that is very minute change of consciousness. And then next moment, forget it. [He laughs.] Okay? Forget it. Forget it and then sit, constantly. Still there is there. It means you have to continually say, “Forget it. Forget it. Forget it.” Okay? So the most minute change of consciousness can still be recognized in samadhi, in the calmness of your zazen.
In this book, this is called moment. Because time is produced by change of consciousness. So still you are living constantly in the stream of time. Alright? So it’s very difficult to take initiative [action] right in the middle of the stream of time, because still there are the most minute changes of consciousness, always there.
But more or less, you can do it. That’s why you have to know how consciousness is changing. You have to realize [that] through and through in zazen.
That’s why the most minute change of consciousness recognized by your calmness, by your zazen, is called moment. That’s why Dōgen Zenji says, “You should realize the moment.” You should understand the moment through and through. Otherwise you cannot awaken the bodhi-mind.
This is the moment in this book. So moment is the very delicate, continuous change of consciousness [which is] still there. The most minute change of consciousness is still recognized even though the consciousness is tranquilized to the maximum. Therein, moment can be recognized. This is called moment.
52:18
And how this moment is produced, [which] is called “the most minute change of consciousness”: that most minute [change of] consciousness is called ignorance.
So moment is ignorance. You don’t know from where the moment comes. [When] that most minute change of consciousness [is] seen in terms of time, it is called moment. And then when you try to see the source of the moment, from where it comes, at that time it is called ignorance. And that ignorance is happening always, constantly, suddenly.
So, look at page 50 of this book, the second paragraph. It says,
What is called the essential nature of Mind is always beyond thoughts. It is, therefore, defined as “immutable”. When the one World of Reality is yet to be realized, the Mind is mutable and is not in perfect unity with Suchness. Suddenly, a deluded thought arises; this state is called ignorance.
The real nature of consciousness is completely that which is unborn or immutable, impenetrable, but it is closely connected with ignorance, so-called discriminating mind, constantly. So that discriminating mind leaves constantly a trace of the minute change of consciousness behind you. Or, right in the middle of calmness, still there is minute change of consciousness there. That is called moment. And then you realize the moment, you realize the time. Then, if you look at this psychologically, this is called ignorance.
And then, this ignorance happens with no reason. No reason. Only [when] time is arranged, conditions are ripe, it happens. So very naturally, Buddhism doesn’t say from where ignorance comes. It is beginningless.
So ignorance is absolutely not the idea of “original sin”. Some people misunderstand ignorance as original sin. Ignorance [has] no beginning; we don’t know from where it comes. That means the source of ignorance is really vast. Alright? It’s vast. [There is] no “avocado seed”, something like a fixed source. No fixed source; it’s vast, beginningless. But if so, if it doesn’t have a source of the ignorance, we don’t know from where it comes. Intellectually, if so, it’s impossible to have ignorance right now, because it doesn’t have any source from which it appears now. Intellectually it’s impossible, but actually it’s there. So, [it’s] always there.
Do you understand this? Always ignorance is there, but if you try to look back to the source, if we try to trace to the source of the ignorance, we don’t know from where it comes; it’s vast. So, completely it’s not original sin.
It’s not something controlled by a third person. For instance, there are fourteen people comparing [time on their watches]. And one person is here and trying to make all the [watches the same time]. [That] one person controls everyone. In order to make all [the watches the same time], there is one common universal characteristic; that is called ignorance. Alright? Lets think in that way. And then you can make the [watches the same time]. At that time, if you don’t like that ignorance, it’s very easy to destroy, because you know who makes it. So you can argue, you can sue that person, you know? [He laughs.] Do you understand? But if you don’t know who makes it – who can you sue? Nobody.
So, nothing. Only one thing you have to know: you have to know the characteristic of ignorance which is appearing and disappearing constantly in your everyday life, through and through. That’s it. You should handle this.
That is the point that this book [talks about]. So, in this section, “The Mind in Terms of Phenomena,” we have to research this minute change of consciousness. It’s very interesting. That is because this is ignorance, so-called. But this ignorance is completely no trace, beginningless. But it’s always there.
1:00:07
Question: Could you say something about the storehouse consciousness that this book mentioned on page 47?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, maybe next time I can explain storehouse consciousness, alright? That is exactly same idea as tathagatagarbha. Buddha is operating constantly in every one of you; not only human beings, all sentient beings. But this buddha-nature is still connected with all sentient beings. That means that buddha-nature is not separate from the human world; that buddha-nature is total dynamic working. Where does it work? It works in the samsaric world. That’s why Buddha connects to the outside world. Alright?
But in terms of human beings, human [point of view], if you look at that human consciousness, you say consciousness is dirty. But I don’t think Buddhism sees it in that way. Still the nature of the consciousness is very pure. That’s why the pure nature of [own] consciousness. It’s really [pure]. But the problem is, this pure nature of consciousness is covered with delusion, discriminating mind. But this pure nature of consciousness, [own] consciousness, is never contaminated by discriminating mind. This is called tathagatagarbha. Okay? And then this book explains how it’s connected. That is called “defilement”: defiledness, undefiledness. They’re both connected. This is tathagatagarbha. And then if it’s connected in human life, how can we be free from this combination of the defiledness or undefiledness. This is a teaching of this book.
So, [can] you understand a little bit the idea of time?
But that means actually, nothing. [He chuckles.] Actually [there is] no time. But when you are human being, time is there. So who creates time? You create it. That’s why you have to take the initiative: because you create time.