The Awakening of Faith – Talk 8
May 11, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
0:00
Katagiri Roshi: I would like to review and also [explain] a little bit, in relation between the mind in terms of phenomena and the mind in terms of the truths.
In this book, Mahayana is the truth. Do you remember, the meaning of Mahayana?
Well, let me say more. In this book, Mahayana is not the Mahayana in relation to Hinayana, but the truth. And truth is considered as the mind of all sentient being.
This is a very interesting point in Buddhism. Probably we discussed about this, why we call the truth mind. Because the truth is the universal scale of being where all sentient beings exist in peace and harmony. This is the truth. But all sentient beings are nothing but all of us, including floors, animate being or inanimate being. And all sentient beings are not objects separate from us, separate from human mind. So exactly all sentient beings are already considered or recognized or known by human mind.
So in other words, regardless of whether you can see or hear [them] or not, all sentient beings are already seen within the cognition of human mind, human cognition. So everything is already in the human cognition. Because, even a little bit, we can see through human consciousness [the panoramic] picture of the universe. (Transcriber’s Note: Katagiri Roshi says “cinerama” but probably means “panoramic”. Cinerama was a widescreen movie format.) Can’t you? You can do it. You can see the [panoramic] picture of the earth where you are, and also [another] planet [where] you are not, [where] you have never been, and also space between the other planets and the earth we live in. You can see it.
So from this point, if you can see the [panoramic] picture of whole universe, including space and time, it means you can see through your human consciousness all sentient beings, already. Because you can see the [panoramic] picture of the whole universe. So in this [panoramic] picture of the whole universe, there are many beings [that] exist; that is all sentient beings. So regardless of whether you are conscious of it or not, all sentient beings are already belonging to us, within our consciousness.
So that’s why even the truth is not the truth completely separate from us, because truth is already recognized within our consciousness. So that’s why truth is called mind.
So that mind is not a kind of abstract mind, this mind is also human mind. This mind of the truth, mind of all sentient beings can be considered by the human mind you can have. So this mind is pretty common human mind. Within this human mind, there is a mind of the truth, where all sentient beings exist in peace, in harmony. That’s why Mahayana is the truth, [and] truth is the mind of all sentient beings.
So without learning the human mind, you don’t understand the truth, you don’t understand all sentient beings.
And then the question is, mind of all sentient beings is what?
Mind of all sentient beings is nothing but our mind.
So our mind is what?
Our mind consists of two worlds. That is mundane world, supermundane world.
The mundane world is very clear, [it] is the world which the usual deluded person can understand. The mundane world is the world understood by [an] ordinary person through their consciousness. So that is already defiled world, because we already understand that world, the human world, through our six senses. That is already perverted.
And the supermundane is the world in […] relation to the mundane world. That’s why it is called undefiled world.
And then, are this undefiled world and defiled world separated or one? What do you think?
Someone: One.
Katagiri Roshi: One.
It’s very close. It’s not a combination of the mundane world and the supermundane world. It’s not a combination. They are two, but they are one. So that is a very important point that this book [says].
That oneness of supermundane and mundane worlds is called what?
Someone: Truth?
Katagiri Roshi: Truth… And also, oneness of the supermundane and mundane worlds is called tathagatagarbha.
Tathagatagarbha is, tathagata is the Tathagata, Buddha; garbha is “womb.” So Tathagata storehouse, Tathagata womb, means everyone is buddha. Buddha consists of the principle, and wisdom: the oneness of the principle and wisdom. In this book, buddha means oneness of principle and wisdom. Principle means [dharma body]. Truth itself.
And this truth and wisdom [is] already present in us, but covered with [defilement]. Delusion; klesha. So dharma body as a principle and wisdom doesn’t work; actually it’s covered. I don’t know [what] to call it, but anyway, already the tathagata is covered with delusions and defiledness.
That’s why we say tathagata-garbha. We are already the infant, the babies. Any time, when you are ready to be in the human world, you can come out. That is tathagatagarbha.
So, tathagatagarbha means all of us, all sentient beings, so-called mind of all sentient beings. That mind of all sentient beings consists of the defiledness and undefiledness, which means [mundane and supermundane] world.
That teaching of the tathagatagarbha is the teaching of Mahayana. Mahayana emphasizes that teaching, the teaching of tathagatagarbha. That is called Mahayana.
So [that is] why we call this teaching Mahayana, because this Mahayana emphasizes the truth as the mind of all sentient beings, consisting of supermundane and mundane world. But the supermundane and mundane worlds are not separated, because they are one. That is called tathagatagarbha.
Do you have questions about this so far?
15:50
Question: Does it include even what we cannot imagine?
Katagiri Roshi: Is there something… ?
Same person: Does the mind include even that which we cannot imagine?
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, well, “you cannot imagine” is already something you can imagine, so already all sentient beings. All sentient beings means something you can imagine, something you cannot imagine; that is all sentient beings.
And also […] recognition. Recognition means to recognize something and not recognize something. That is called recognition. Cognition.
Well, this is the truth, […] which is called the universe. In the universe you can see the panoramic picture of the universe.
Well, you already see the panoramic picture of the universe. That means huge world. And then, next, your consciousness operates in the time process. Very naturally you can pick up one, two, three. That is your vision. That is the characteristic of your consciousness.
So according to the characteristic of consciousness, you can say there are some you can imagine, there are some you cannot imagine. But as a whole, you can immediately see the panoramic picture of the universe.
For instance, if you come to this room, immediately you catch the whole picture of this room. This is called what? What kind of mind is this?
Someone: Intuitive mind?
Katagiri Roshi: Intuitive mind.
So intuitive mind operates in the universal perspective; as a whole, anyway. And then next, your consciousness operates one by one. That is the dualistic world.
[…] This is a most important teaching in Buddhism, because this is a very basic way of thinking, human thinking. All sentient beings are already recognized, cognized by us. In other words, if you exist in this world, all sentient beings are already accepted within your life – in other words related with you, very closely. Otherwise, there is no object […] So all objects you can imagine [or] you cannot imagine are already cognized by you. In other words, all sentient beings [are] within your life; that is called all sentient beings. It means your existence and also others’ existence are simultaneously in the same one level, one ground, simultaneously. So all sentient beings are connected in not a vertical way, [but] in a horizontal way. Do you understand?
“In a vertical way” means the boss and students; this [is the] hierarchical way. That is very intellectual. [He laughs.] In an intellectual way you accept all sentient beings immediately in a vertical way. There is a top, and second, third, fourth. Already you are separate, like this. This is important too. But if that hierarchical way of thinking is considered as the most fundamental way of thinking, it is called intellectual. Very intellectual. The intellectual way is kind of “father-like”; very strict. Do you understand? Very “you are you.” You are not “B”; that is why you are you. You never accept “B.” So there is a very clear discrimination there. But in Buddhism it’s quite different. Basically all sentient beings are completely accepted and exist in the same ground, not different. So very naturally a Buddhistic way is very “mother-like” type. Very gentle and compassionate, very compassionate. That is a fundamental way of thinking.
But apparently, we need both. You have to understand the relationship between you and all sentient beings in a vertical way, but simultaneously, you have to have the relation between you and all sentient beings in the horizontal way, too.
But basically, [where] your fundamental way of thinking is placed, that is very important. And then your attitude is quite different; attitude is taken in a different way. I don’t know, this is a different characteristic of intellectual and not intellectual. Very systemized, very father-like and mother-like. We need both in human life; but always there is a difference, a little difference where you are standing. That is a fundamental way of thinking.
So that’s why this is “the truth is called mind” and “the truth is called mind of all sentient beings”; it’s very important for us. And also the supermundane and mundane worlds are one, which is called tathagatagarbha. This is a very basic understanding of human life in Buddhism.
Well, you can see the different ways in your life.
Do you have [another] question? Anything else?
25:12
Question: Hojo-san, does someone else have the same mind as I do?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: So if the things I imagine and the things I cannot imagine are all part of my mind, is Tony’s mind part of my mind?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. Not part of your mind; Tony’s mind is already contents of your mind, because Tony’s mind is already something existing on the same and one level. So that’s why all sentient beings must be accepted simultaneously, before you analyze, synthesize. That’s why you have to accept all sentient beings.
So your mind is Tony’s mind; it is already separated, but basically you have to accept, totally. That is called “Tony’s mind is your mind”, “Tony’s mind is a part of your mind”, or “Tony’s mind is the same mind as you”. But this is already dualistic. So you should accept totally. What do I mean? “This is Tony’s mind” is nothing but the difference from you. So that means what? Tony’s mind is the content of your life.
[Tape break.]
… That means, if you see the different type of Tony’s mind, it is already you can see your mind, it is exactly your mind. So other’s story is not other’s story, other’s story is your story. Do you understand?
That means in the human world, there are different kind of human beings exist. Good person, bad person, very cruel person, many beings exist. Hells, hungry ghosts, fighting spirits, and, you know, the bodhisattvas, celestial beings, human beings – many beings exist. And many beings can be seen objectively in your world, but their stories are not other’s stories, [they’re] your stories. So you can see the hells, hungry ghosts, fighting spirits, celestial beings, etc. can exist within you. Do you understand?
So you cannot criticize others, you cannot treat others very badly, anyway. Well, whoever they are. So that’s why I say always, even though […] let’s say a bank robber, you can arrest him, but you cannot treat him very badly. You have to treat him or her gently, because they are nothing different from you. So you have to treat him [gently]; but he did something wrong, that’s why we have to put him in a different place, that is called jail. We say “jail”, but even though they live in a jail, they are not different from you. But they did something, that’s why we have to arrest them for a while in a different place. In order to reflect upon themselves. [He chuckles.] Anyway, we can give an opportunity to come back to the human world, tathagatagarbha’s world.
That is completely the fundamental way of thinking. Where this fundamental way of thinking is placed, you have to accept completely all sentient beings. But if you deal with human beings […] very intellectually: you are a bad boy, so you should be in jail; if you are in jail, you are completely different person.
So wherever you may be, always there is such an attitude. Such a fundamental way of thinking operates constantly.
What is the question?
Question: In a culture where this is fundamentally accepted, wouldn’t it be a very democratic culture? And there wouldn’t be hierarchy?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: But that’s not really true in Japan, is it?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, on the appearance, on the surface aspect of the human world, there is a hierarchy, you know. And also on hierarchies means time and space, very naturally. But I am talking about, where the fundamental way of thinking is placed. Where is it? There is hierarchical way or not hierarchical way. Where is the relation among the human beings? Among all sentient beings. Standing where? Hierarchical way, relation in vertical, or relation in horizontal. That creates a quite different world. [Spiritually], quite different.
32:24
Question: Hojo-san? When relating to the world from the horizontal plane, can you say there are defilements then? You said, where tathagata is covered by defiledness, is that from intellectual play or is that full?
Katagiri Roshi: That is what?
Same person: Can you say there are defilements, when … ?
Katagiri Roshi: Defiledness, yes, defiledness. But it is not the defiledness separate from undefiledness. That defiledness is exactly the same as undefiledness. That is called tathagatagarbha. Alright?
So defiledness doesn’t exist in a different world, separate from undefiledness. Do you understand?
Same person: Mm-hmm.
Katagiri Roshi: So if you do something, [make] some mistake, there is a mistake. But that mistaken world is not created by a different person; the same person who can create not-mistaken world.
So always there are two things. But if we explain there are two things, two different things always come up, that’s why it is very difficult to see the total picture, one picture, of mundane and supermundane, mistake or not-mistake, defiledness or undefiledness. It’s very difficult.
Question: But wouldn’t it be fair to say that in the hierarchical world more emphasis is put on the distinction between defilement and non-defilement? [While] in the horizontal world, it’s not so.
Katagiri Roshi: No, it’s the same, but quite a different word [unintelligible] in the human world. But both are defiled world, anyway. But simultaneously, that is through that hierarchical way or through the not-hierarchical way, you can have the opportunity to see the total picture of the human world. But [it’s] a little bit difficult, anyway. How long does it take; [that’s the] different points. And how much you should suffer from? That kind of thing happens. But if you have relationship among the people in the vertical way or in the horizontal way, it is the same defiled world.
Question: Why is that? I’m not clear on why that is. In the horizontal way it seems to be saying everything is equal. So if everything is equal, how can they be defiled and not defiled?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, even though it seems to be equal, that is not different from the hierarchy. All sentient beings exist in the differentiation. So if you say equal, equal doesn’t exist alone, separate from differentiation. So differentiation [and] equals become one.
So that’s why defiled world. But a defiled world is completely different from undefiled world. Okay? That’s why defiled world must be thought, well, in terms of undefiled world; undefiled world must be understood in terms of defiled world.
Someone: But in the hierarchical world, it’s very difficult to have that simultaneous.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, it’s very difficult. Always there is confusion, conflict, stress, always created. Lots of challenge there. But, by this suffering, we can approach to the Buddha’s world.
[Tape change.]
38:05
Katagiri Roshi: Okay, any [more] questions?
Question: […] Is it true that the defiled world is the world we understand through our six senses?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: And so… the vertical and horizontal ways are both ways of understanding through our six senses. Is that correct?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: Okay. So, that’s why the horizontal way is still defiled. Because it is still a perception.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. Mm-hmm.
So, the teaching of tathagatagarbha is also teaching in terms of the relative world. Because that is a combination of the defiled world and undefiled world.
So, without tathagatagarbha, you cannot create the samsaric world. Let me say a little bit [more] about this. […] If you say tathagatagarbha, this is a little bit personalized, something personalized. Truth is digested by human beings; at that time, that is called tathagatagarbha.
And then, in terms of human life, if you see the tathagatagarbha, that teaching of tathagatagarbha, that is called jisho shojo-shin, which means “mind of pure nature”. Pure nature of the mind. In terms of the truth, the human mind is called tathagatagarbha, but in terms of human consciousness, it is called pure nature of the mind. Different expression there: tathagatagarbha, and the pure nature of mind.
And that pure nature of the mind is always covered with delusions and questions, illusions; that’s why pure nature of the mind doesn’t appear in the human world. If you see tathagatagarbha in terms of human senses, always there is a pure nature of the mind, but it doesn’t appear, because it’s covered with delusions.
So already there is the pure nature of the mind, and simultaneously the human world, mundane world, because [of] delusions by which the pure nature of the mind is covered. So they are not different; they are one.
So very naturally, tathagatagarbha or pure nature of the mind is the basic foundation of the existence. Simultaneously, without pure nature of the mind and the [super]mundane world, we cannot create the samsaric world. Without tathagatagarbha, you cannot create the samsaric world.
[…] But tathagatagarbha is not the cause of human suffering. The cause of human suffering is ignorance.
This is a kind of example. The example is just like, ignorance is coming from you, but something more than you. Because when you are born, when you are conscious of it, it’s already there. So it’s coming from the past. But generally speaking, the ignorance is coming from your cognition or not-cognitions; regardless of whether you cognize or you don’t cognize it. Anyway, ignorance is coming from the beginningless past. So you don’t know what it is. So it comes from outside, temporarily we can say.
So it is just like a wind, and the wind creates waves. And then you can see there is something in motion. So let’s see the water and waves, and also wind, and also motion.
So the wind in this case [is] mumyō, ignorance. And also the waves are delusions.
So ignorance is a cause of the delusions. But water is always [water]. […] Water has constantly the possibility to create delusions and motion. Motion is kind of the samsaric word; delusion is the waves. By delusion we can create the samsaric word. Samsaric word [is] the aspect of human life in motion.
Delusion is small waves and big waves – that’s suffering, different kinds of suffering. That is delusion; that is called waves.
The water itself is always there. When the wind comes, it creates waves. And it creates fantastic worlds, so-called motion. Storms, et cetera.
So the water itself is called tathagatagarbha. Because it has the possibility to create dynamic motion, and still motion, not-dynamic motion. Very serene, but sometimes very dynamic.
So when the wind doesn’t blow, water becomes quiet.
So tathagatagarbha is always tathagatagarbha. But always there is a possibility to create the human world. And also, if you make it calm, it’s called buddha-nature. Stillness of the world.
So that’s why without tathagatagarbha you cannot create the samsaric world: because this tathagatagarbha is kind of pure nature but simultaneously not pure nature.
So that’s why we learned that is mind in terms of the truth. Next time, anyway from now on, we study the mind in terms of phenomena.
So mind in terms of the truth is completely truth, absolute truth. Absolute truth, beyond time and space. But this time, the mind in terms of phenomena, is the beings in the realm of time and space.
49:30
Question: When you use the term… when you talk about the waves on the water, and talk about that as creating the world of delusion, and the ignorance being the wind… When you use the word defilement for the waves, it sounds very negative to say that the waves are defilement. Could you say… well, what do you think about that?
Katagiri Roshi: “Defiled”?
Same person: Yeah.
Katagiri Roshi: You mean that the wind is kind of defiled?
Same person: Well, you say that the wind is ignorance. Right?
Katagiri Roshi: Mmm-hm.
Same person: And the wind creates the waves on the pure tathagatagarbha, pure water. And then, they go on to say sometimes that that is the defilement of the waves, or the defilement of the pure water. The waves, the churning up, discoloring the water.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: And that’s a nice analogy. But then, sometimes it seems like the waves are something bad, because of the term defilement. Using term defilement sounds negative, makes the waves sound negative sometimes.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Same person: So there is a desire to get away from the waves, or put down the waves, to just have the clear still water with no waves.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Sure. But for this, you cannot escape from the waves in order to know the pure nature of the water which is serene, so you have to research through and through waves. That is the next teaching, of the mind in terms of phenomena. So we have to understand mind, the human world – through and through.
So buddha-nature, tathagatagarbha, is in a sense a pure nature of the world, so-called buddha. Okay? On the other hand, buddha-mind is very pure and quiet, completely. But buddha is connected with human world, and then teach. So very naturally, buddha’s mind itself is quiet, but simultaneously buddha’s mind is defiled, because it [relates] with the human world.
Why? Because it is tathagatagarbha. So tathagatagarbha is the buddha-nature which is completely, absolutely truth. But on the other hand, buddha is always connected with the human world. Or even though buddha doesn’t want [it], the human world is connected. The human world [is] initiatively connected with this buddha-nature.
So inside of the buddha is quiet, and the human world comes up. And then temporarily we say buddha’s mind is defiled. But it’s not defiled. Always buddha’s mind is calm; just like the water.
And then babies come, and then buddha comes kind of creating the little water waves, that is called, “buddha appears as the babies”. But basically, buddha is buddha. That is the buddha-mind.
So very naturally, tathagatagarbha is in a sense absolute truth, beyond time, but on the other hand tathagatagarbha is connected with the human world, which is limited by time, the time process. Why? This pure nature of the buddha creates time, because this is characteristic of tathagatagarbha. Gharba means always there is a pure nature of the buddha, the human mind, simultaneously it’s connected with the human world.
So […] in this case, tathagatagarbha is always both: beyond time, but simultaneously in time. That means you are already in the time process; your life is limited by the time process. On the other hand, you can create your time. So, both. You are completely [accepting the] time process. You should completely accept your life and all sentient beings beyond time; that means you are right in the middle of time process. So time is completely beyond your speculation. But on the other hand, you can create time. Because you are right in the middle of beyond time, but simultaneously you are connected with time. That is the human world.
So in order to know [the] real, pure, absolute, you have to understand where you stand. That is the time process. So what is time? That’s why we have to know time. Because the human world in terms of time is related already with delusions. When your life is connected with delusion, that is called time, the time process. That is called creation of the human world in terms of the time process.
So you have to understand time. That’s why Dōgen Zenji says, if you don’t believe [the instant], the process of operation of the instant from moment to moment, you never get bodhi mind. So your life is really from the instants, moment from moment. “Moment from moment” means you cannot grasp anything for a moment; [it’s] always going. That’s why Dōgen Zenji says, if you don’t believe this, you cannot get real bodhi-mind.
So through and through. That’s why time is going from moment to moment, at super-speed. The world is moving, the earth is going at super-speed. That is from moment [to] moment.
If so, you are right in the middle of the time process, at the super-speed of the time process. So it is completely beyond your speculation. But on the other hand, you are right there; you can be right on the time process. At that time, if you are right there, you don’t know; you don’t notice the time process. That is called absolute truth.
Just like a jet airplane. If you are right there, you don’t know the time process. You become very quiet. But if you see that situation even slightly objectively, you can feel the time process, the speed of time. That is called dualistic.
So, that’s why we have to understand the world in terms of phenomena. Through and through, we have to research: what is this? That is the human world in terms of phenomena, created by the time process. Because we are already related with delusions. Delusion means discriminating world.
That’s why we have to research.
So that’s why Dōgen Zenji [says] in the Shōbōgenzō in “The Awakening of the Bodhi-Mind,” explaining about time, moment. (Transcriber’s Note: This is in Hotsu bodai shin, “Arousing the Bodhi-Mind”. “Moment” is from the Sanskrit word kṣaṇa, in Japanese setsuna 刹那.)
Okay. Do you have questions about this?
You are, and you must be, exactly in the time process. Do you understand this? And then you can be free from time – and free from you. That is called nirvana; enlightenment, et cetera. In a different way, that is non-attachment. Because you must be always living there. Not seeing the time objectively; you must be there and you must do something, as best as you can.
So that is non-attachment; we say so. But in order to practice non-attachment, your intellectual understanding must be refined. That’s why the Dōgen Zenji [talks about] time. What is time? What is the moment? [Where do] you live? What is the total picture of the delusions, the human world?
So originally, according to primitive Buddhism, that is called Four Noble Truths; Eightfold Practice Way. […] Eightfold Noble Truth.
Someone: Eightfold Path?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
1:02:36
Question: Is the word defilement klesha? K-L-E-S-H-A?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, klesha.
Question: What are other words that mean klesha?
Katagiri Roshi: Delusions; we says delusions. Sometimes we use illusions, and delusions. Do you know other English terms?
Someone: The original is stain.
Question: Would an example of delusion be the fantasy of dualism? The fantasy of object and subject? Is that delusion? Is anxiety delusion?
Katagiri Roshi: You can say so; yeah.
1:03:47
Question: Hojo-san, [do I] understand what you said: whether the Buddha likes it or not, he’s connected with the human world? How is connected different from the buddha is the human world? To me it sounds like you say the buddha is connected with the human world, there is the buddha and then there is the human world. Is that what you mean; two things, like that?
Katagiri Roshi: Buddha is not in the human world?
Same person: No, you said the Buddha is connected to the human world. To me, that means two things.
Katagiri Roshi: Two things. Yes.
Same person: I’m a little confused about that, “connected with the human world.”
Katagiri Roshi: Because the absolute is not something different from, not separate from phenomena. Because without phenomena we cannot understand the absolute. Don’t you think so?
Same person: Yes, but you said “connected”.
Katagiri Roshi: [Yes,] connected. Connected means one.
Same person: Oh, okay. That’s fine. Thank you.
Katagiri Roshi: But how does it connect? How does it happen, so-called connection? That means the time process. That means the teaching of tathagatagarbha. Tathagatagarbha is [not] that they are two: mundane world and the supermundane worlds are not two, but they are not one. That is the tathagatagarbha. But temporarily we say tathagatagarbha “is covered with clouds,” so-called delusion, klesha. Well, temporarily we can say so, teaching has to say so, because we have to make the definition of [what] tathagatagarbha is. So very naturally it’s explained like that – but actually it’s not two. They are not two, they are not one.
So that is always the one piece of paper with the two aspects. If you see one, always there is a one, so-called awareness. But un-awareness is hidden behind. But it’s not separate; it’s already with it.
And then in the next chapter, this book explains the alayavijnana. That is alayavijnana. Why we have to say that tathagatagarbha, that is psychologically, tathagatagarbha will be explained as alayavijnana. Alayavijnana is just one piece of paper with the two aspects, always. And then always it is working, showing the back, showing the front. When you see the front, the whole world [is] front. The back of the piece of paper is hidden, so you cannot see it – but it’s there, always. That is the situation of oneness, okay? [He chuckles.] So it’s not one, it’s not two, in terms of common sense. Because it’s working, just like a falling leaf.
Someone: Or like waves in water.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure.
Intellectually we can say waves are different from water, but without water we cannot see the waves. So waves are one with the water. But we cannot say waves are one with the water, because there is a separation there, discrimination there: waves of water. But without water, it’s impossible to see the waves. So water is waves.
So always there is one piece of paper with the two aspects, alright? That is a very good example.
You have to use the front of the piece of paper, well, completely. The back is hidden, but it’s always [present]. That’s why Dōgen Zenji says, “When one side appears, the other side is darkness.” That is characteristic of alayavijnana, which will be explained next.
Okay, any other questions?
1:09:27
Question: You had said that without a refined understanding of time processes, you cannot grasp the bodhi mind. And then, I wasn’t sure what you had said about a refined understanding of time processes.
Katagiri Roshi: That is a practice, anyway. Refined understanding of time means, there is a moment. You have to understand the moment.
Moment is, according to Dōgen Zenji, a moment consists of the 60 [instants]. So usually we say this is a moment, but if you hear this moment, you already missed 60 [instants]. [He chuckles.]
Same person: That’s where you said it’s like the jet airplane, then.
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, the jet airplane. But practically, it’s very difficult to practice it, even though you are there. Because you are already in time, completely beyond your speculation. Do you understand?
Same person: It seems very smooth because I’m in it.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah.
Same person: But actually, it’s…
Katagiri Roshi: You are there, so completely beyond your speculation, your life is in the time process. But you can create your own life, that means you can create your time, because you can enjoy sitting on the jet airplane, drinking champagne, et cetera. You can create [that]. And you can experience the fears, joys, many things. Do you understand?
So that’s why Dōgen Zenji [says] we have to understand through and through the […] significance of the moment, [that you live in].
1:11:42
Question: In your analogy [of the] water and waves, i’m wondering again – if the wind is ignorance, I’m wondering how we should take care of ignorance.
Katagiri Roshi: That’s why ignorance appears in a different way, as sometimes grasping. The contents of the ignorance; it’s very difficult to grasp the ignorance itself, because it’s kind of… well, something. We don’t know what it is. But you can see [it], it appears always in the human world, that is called grasping and also craving. That is a very concrete aspect…
[Tape change.]
… the discriminating world is already filled with grasping. And then we say we exist, like this. We can accept our existence. That is the discriminating world. Mentally; intellectually or emotionally.
1:13:23
Question: In “Arousing the Bodhi Mind,” Dōgen talks about clarifying what a moment is, and then he says that each moment consists of 60 instants. And then during the day it has some huge number of instants. Why does he pin it down so precisely? I mean, he gives exact numbers: 60 instants to a moment, and then some 90 billion-something instances in a day. Why didn’t he say, it moves so quickly you can’t grasp it? Why didn’t he say that instead of giving some concrete number like he did?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, because that is a hint of how quickly the moment of time is moving.
Same person: By giving some huge, ungraspable number.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, he just used a huge number, because it’s very difficult to taste how quickly it moves. We don’t know; that’s why he used the big number. The number is… well, the number. [He chuckles.] But through this number you can taste, you know, how quickly time moves. Because we have an intellectual sense, so very naturally we want to know how fast it moves. [He laughs.] That is modern physics, anyway.
I have not compared the Western way of thinking with the Eastern way of thinking, but if you want to [know] a little bit the difference between East and West, very naturally you have to research what is the very fundamental way of thinking there, by which the phenomenal worlds [unintelligible]. But in the future, we have to research both. You cannot take care of human life just in terms of the Western way of thinking. If you always stay there, always you can create a huge egoism. And also the same applies to the East. So you have to research. Even though you are not familiar with Buddhistic understanding, that is a really great hint to human life. Particularly for the 21st century, it is very important for us.
Because all sentient beings are living very close; in the 21st century, there is no particular gap between East and West. Always becoming interconnected, interpenetrated. You [cannot] understand philosophy separate from psychology, and you can understand physics separate from psychology and philosophy, et cetera. All are connected. And then you can really understand physics which is helpful for human life. Otherwise, physics always separated from philosophy, psychology, it becomes very dangerous.
So the Buddhistic way of understanding is very important for us too. And also intellectual understanding, the Western way of thinking, is very common. Whoever you are, it’s very common.
So you should research, anyway. Your whole life.