Blue Cliff Record Case 55: Tao Wu’s Condolence Call, Talk 3
April 11, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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0:00
Katagiri Roshi: If you have a book, I think every time you should bring the book. And even if you don’t understand the teaching, I think you should read, contemplate. Before lecture you should have the textbook and read it. And then bring the book with you, and during the lecture, when you have to read, we should read it together. This is very important practice.
Most of you don’t bring the book… Because even if you bring the book with you every time, you don’t use it so much. When we read the textbook, you just look up. That’s why you don’t bring it, I think. But this is very arrogant for you.
Anyway, Buddhist practice is to do something with not only the one of your six senses. If you listen to the lecture, you listen to the lecture with your ear. But that is not real listening to the Buddha’s teaching. You should listen to the Buddha’s teaching with your whole body, all six senses, with all your pores.
Not only Buddhist practice this; this is very important for you. To practice piano, I always say, play the piano. When you play the piano, you believe in the common sense you can play the piano with two hands. But the music you can play on the piano with two hands doesn’t make sense; it’s not real music. No one is interested in such a music. Don’t you think so? You should listen to the music you have played, that you are playing. You should listen to the feeling of the composers, you should listen to your hands, you should listen to your mind, you should listen to the audience; you have to do many things with your whole body. Within the one practice, so-called playing the piano right now right here, you have to use your whole body. And then that practice makes you a pianist. Naturally.
You cannot play the piano, you cannot become a pianist only through the technique, the technical way of become a pianist. Technically you cannot be a great pianist, because you ignore the human warmness, human feelings. If you don’t have the human warmness, human feelings, you cannot deal with the piano itself [with warmness], as a feeling. The piano becomes just a material. It doesn’t support your life.
[…] Most of the people become very realistic. People believe that they are playing the piano in order to get what? For the sake of what? Fame. Getting rich. Very realistic. Better life.
If you deal with human life like this, you don’t understand the piano. You don’t understand the music.
You are practicing now spiritual life. Spiritual of life is always emphasizing that point: you should do something with your whole body. So listen to the Buddha’s teaching, and as best as you can, you try to use your whole body. So if you have a chance to read the text book through your eye senses, why don’t you read it? This is important. Even if only once during this lecture you can look at this textbook, that’s enough. It’s alright.
Don’t deal with human life very intellectually, very calculatedly. If you deal with the human life very calculatedly, you don’t understand spiritual life of Buddhism. You don’t understand the people’s feelings; you don’t understand a way to live in peace and harmony with all sentient beings. You don’t understand it.
7:25
Chapter 55.
This case contemplates the problem of life and death. Last time we studied the case. This case is very important for us. Today I would like to read verse. But, before we read the verse, would you read this case? Page 365.
*Reader:
Tao Wu and Chien Yuan went to a house to make a condolence call. Yuan hit the coffin and said, “Alive or dead?” Wu said, “I won’t say alive, and I won’t say dead.” Yuan said, “Why won’t you say?” Wu said, “I won’t say.” Halfway back, as they were returning, Yuan said, “Tell me right away, Teacher; if you don’t tell me, I’ll hit you.” Wu said, “You may hit me, but I won’t say.” Yuan then hit him.
Later Tao Wu passed on. Yuan went to Shih Shuang and brought up the foregoing story. Shuang said, “I won’t say alive, and I won’t say dead.” Yuan said, “Why won’t you say?” Shuang said, “I won’t say, I won’t say.” At these words Yuan had an insight.
One day Yuan took a hoe into the teaching hall and crossed back and forth, from east to west and west to east. Shuang said, “What are you doing?” Yuan said, “I’m looking for relics of our late master.” Shuang said, “Vast waves spread far and wide, foaming billows flood the skies—what relics of our late master are you looking for?”
Hsueh Tou added a comment saying, “Heavens! Heavens!”
Yuan said, “This is just where I should apply effort.”
Fu of T’ai Yuan said, “The late master’s relics are still present.”
( From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary)
*Katagiri Roshi: Okay, the verse pease?
*Reader:
Rabbits and horses have horns—
Oxen and Rams have no horns.
Nary a hair, nary a wisp—
Like mountains, like peaks.
The golden relics still exist right now—
With white foaming waves flooding the skies, where can they be put?
There’s no place to put them—
Even the one who returned to the West with one shoe has lost them.( From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary)
*Katagiri Roshi: Thank you.
The monk Yuan has faced his question of life and death. Finally, he found a chance to ask his teacher about life and death, when they went to perform funeral service. So Yuan opened the casket and said, what is death. The teacher’s answer says, “I will not say that it is dead. I will not say that it is alive.”
That means the teacher cannot say anything about life and death. This is a point in this koan.
And also later, when Yuan walked [back and forth] in the Buddha Hall, carrying the hoe east and west, and Shuang asked, “What are you doing?” Yuan said, “I am looking for teacher’s relics.” And then Shuang says – here is a technical term – “Vast waves spread far and wide, foaming billows flood the skies.” That is a special expression by the Chinese of how vast the universe is. Completely vast.
If you go to the moon, the universe is really vast. The earth you live on is really tiny, just a speck of dust. And within the tiny world, so-called earth, humans [on] earth are like specks of dust. Millions and millions of human beings exist, and are fighting each other. How small it is! How ridiculous it is! Because the universe is huge.
So the Chinese express how vast the universe is. That is the “vast waves spread far and wide, foaming billows flood the skies.” This is the expression.
So Shuang asked him, “What are you doing?” Yuan said, “I am looking for the teacher’s relics.” But Shuang says, “Do you know how vast the universe is? How can you find teacher’s relics in the realm of vastness of existence?” Where is it?
And then later, on page 366, Yuan said, “This is just where I should apply effort.”
So, two points here, in this case. One point is that life and death is completely nothing to pin down, nothing to comment, nothing to say. On the other hand, Yuan said, “This is just where I should apply effort.” Life and death is constantly going, in the realm of vastness of the universe. How can you pin it down? It’s vast. But, human effort must be there. Human effort must be applied in the vastness of existence where there is nothing to say, to comment. This is human effort.
Remember this point. Whatever you think, whatever problem of your life you want to think [about] – life and death, cold and heat, summer and winter, good and bad, right and wrong, whatever it is – you should think about human problem in terms of this basic principle. Because, the content of the real reality you live in constantly is structured by two principles. One is vastness, nothing to pin down. But, on the other hand, within the nothing to pin down or to comment, you have to apply your effort.
Because you live constantly in terms of cause and effect, beginning and end. If you are born in this world, there is a beginning. If there is a beginning, there is an end. You cannot ignore this.
So very naturally, you have to make effort. Effort is human action. Human action requires the purpose of why you do this. If you have a purpose for the human actions, action is based on the teaching of causation; cause and effect. That’s why you try to know purpose. Even if you don’t know, human actions require their own purpose, very naturally. That is cause and effect: if you do something, you can get something.
So, life and death is complete vastness, nothing to comment, nothing to say – but, there is the place you have to apply your effort. So-called, you have to say something about it.
Okay? It’s kind of contradictory.
Let me say [this] once more. Basically, there is a very fundamental pure contradiction, always. This is very universal. Whoever you are, always there is [this]. Being or not being, good and bad, man and woman, right or wrong, life and death. This contradiction is very pure, very sheer, open to all sentient beings, not only human beings. And also this sheer contradiction is constantly going in the realm of identity, so-called the same and one ground.
But I don’t mean it’s [that] first there is the realm of identity, or the same and one ground, and then there are contradictions. No. [That’s] very dualistic; I don’t think this is right understanding. You have to find the contradiction right in the middle of vastness, emptiness. You have to find the vastness of existence within contradictions. In other words, contradiction is simultaneously vastness. Vastness is simultaneously contradiction. That is Buddhist teaching, always.
Usually we believe first there is the same and one ground, so-called the truth, and then we can find contradiction, life and death, good oe bad, right among, all contradictions. Contradictions are going in the realm of this identity, the same and one ground. This [understanding] is dualistic – very dualistic. It’s not Buddhaist teaching.
So vastness means I, “I will not say.” This Zen master says, ”I won’t say, I won’t say.”
What is your life? You want to say. Life and death… how can you live? How have you been living in this world, for twenty years, thirty years? How have you created your life for twenty years, thirty years, forty years? Nothing to say. Basically, nothing to say. Your life actually: nothing to say about your life is [the] really basic nature of your experience of life and death. Exactly nothing to say.
But “nothing to say” doesn’t mean to shut off your mouth. Okay? Nothing to say about the human life is the first step. You can make questions. Because you live, like this. Why do you sit down here to listen to this? What’s the purpose? You want to know Buddha’s teaching because you find some problem of life and death; that’s why you want to listen. If you have this purpose, then listening to the Buddha’s teaching right now, right here, gives you some answer to the questions you have had. [Does it]? No way. Sometimes. You could get an answer from my talk right now; next moment, when you go out from this zendo, you forget it! You don’t know what I said, right after leaving here. So actually, you don’t know why you sit down here.
This is your life. You don’t know why you sit down here, but your life is exactly going there, you know? In this [realm], sitting. This is real reality; your life. Nothing to comment. And then after that you say, “What am I am doing here?” You make all these questions.
So first of all, anyway, something is going, completely beyond your intellectual sense, beyond your questions, always going. This is the real picture of life and death: completely going.
That’s why this Zen Master says, “I won’t say.” Nothing to say about life and death. But it doesn’t mean to shut up your mouth. That is a first place you can make a question about human life.
But usually we don’t believe [this]. First we believe we can make a question about human life and then we can say something about human life, or sometimes I cannot say [something about] human life. And sometimes we believe I can create my life. I don’t think so. That is very intellectual, very dualistic.
27:30
In the verse,
Rabbits and horses have horns—
Oxen and Rams have no horns.
“Rabbits and horses have horns”: It’s really completely beyond the intellectual understanding of rabbit. You have never seen a rabbit with horns.
So we believe rabbits never have horns. This is our understanding. At that time you can pin down something: “Yeah, rabbits have no horns.” That is your understanding. But here it says, “Rabbits have horns.” That means you cannot say rabbits have horns or rabbits have no horns. That means, life and death is completely nothing to pin down or to comment.
This is the basic nature of your life, and tree’s life. Well, sit in zazen like this and then you can see it, gradually. That is a very basic, quiet state of human existence. But it’s very dynamic, because from that silence and quietness you can make questions. Questions, energies, capability coming up, constantly, which makes your life alive.
But usually we don’t do it. We do the opposite, always the opposite. That’s why [first], people are very exhausted. And then when people are exhausted, they don’t know the place where to go. So finally they are confused.
But if you know this very basic fundamental state of human beings, which is very quiet and very dynamic, from where many capabilities and energies [are like] spring water coming up, gushing out in your life – at that time, of course, you are a human being, and have suffered a lot; you may be exhausted very often; but you can find out where you should go. That’s really [safety]; belief.
But most people don’t know. Because they are always going out; trying to get something, trying to get something. They don’t know where they should go.
So, “Rabbits and horses have horns. Oxen and rams have no horns.” This is a very intellectual understanding, alright? Intellectual understanding of no comment on life and death.
That’s why the note says,
Chop them off. How extraordinary! How fresh and new!
Zen Buddhism is not talking about life and death where you cannot say anything in terms of intellectual understanding, but life and death which is fresh and new, constantly. Even though you cannot say anything about life and death, [still] you have to say [something], because there is cause and effect. You have a consciousness. Without language, you cannot know what human life is. Without language you cannot understand the ancestors’ lives, you cannot convey or transmit human life to the next generation.
So, language is important. Even though [there is] nothing to say about human life, [still] there is something to say.
How can I say? I want to say. I want to say about life, about death. This is expression.
Here it says, “Rabbits and horses have horns. Oxen and rams have no horns.” That’s a different expression, but the meaning is the same.
So, very naturally, “chop them off” means still there is a “smack” of intellect. Okay?
Zen Buddhism doesn’t teach human life which has a “smack of” life and death you have believed. You must be free from that smack of life and death you have believed.
If you become a scholar, very naturally you can have a smack of “scholar,” a scholastic way of understanding. If you must the technique of art, then a smack of technique can be found in your work, always. It’s very “smelly,” very “stinky.”
If you want to be a really great artist, a great pianist, or painter, whatever, you must be free from a smack of painter; you have to be free from a smack of a pianist. This is the final goal, because the life of pianist is not something separate from your life, so-called life and death. So the life of pianist must extend to every inch of your everyday life.
But usually artists are very egoistic, because artists always concentrate on art. [He laughs.] Because it’s lots of fun, creating the masterpiece. The more you make the effort, the more you can create really a masterpiece. So it’s lots of fun there! But if they come back to their own everyday life, they don’t know how to take care of it. So life becomes very messy, very messy.
36:52
Nary a hair, nary a wisp—
Like mountains, like peaks.
“There is nothing to comment on life and death” means “nary a hair” – completely nothing.
You cannot say “nothing,” either, ok? Completely nothing. That’s why “nary a hair, nary a wisp.”
But the next [line] says, “Like mountains, like peaks.” This is one sentence: “Nary a hair, nary a wisp – like mountains, like peaks.” That’s a very contradictory expression. Complete nothing. Even the smallest space, no space there. No width, no length. If you have a dot on a piece of paper, you can see still length and width. But nothing to say, nothing to comment means a dot with no width, no length. It means completely nothing. But that is simultaneously “like mountains, like peaks.”
Well, this is very important for us. You cannot say about your life how you have lived. By your thinking, by your effort, you believe, “I have taken care of my life.” Of course – but this is just a speck of dust.
Is the life which you have made every possible effort to build up good for you? Or bad for you? Can you say about that? Can you make a comment on your life, what you have built up for twenty years, for thirty years? Can you comment on this life?
You can comment, but it’s not exactly hitting the bullseye, as a whole. Finally, you don’t know how you live, you don’t know how you have built up your life. Because whatever you say, sometimes your life is pretty good, you feel good about the life which you have built up. But sometimes you don’t feel [good]. So what do you mean? Nothing to say.
[Tape break.]
… This is the total original nature of your life.
If it is true, I don’t think you should [be irritated by] your life. Even though you don’t understand, even though you don’t feel good, even though you don’t feel good, I don’t think it is desirable for you to be irritated by the understanding of your life. Because practically and truly, nothing to pin down or comment. That means vastness.
That is simultaneously life itself and death itself, like the mountains and the peaks. Look at the mountains: the mountain is really sitting in the universe, how? Very decorated, it is decorated with majesty. This is your life. Everyone’s life. That’s why you have survived for many, many years. Just like that. No one interrupts.
So that’s why here it says, nothing to say about your life, but that life is really the total picture of your life, just like the mountains and the peaks, and the oceans, and the trees in the severe winter. Trees just stand up with dignity and majesty, tuning in to the rhythm of nature.
So that’s why here it says, “Nary a hair, nary a wisp – like mountains, like peaks.” This is the real nature of your life.
42:52
The golden relics still exist right now—
With white foaming waves flooding the skies, where can they be put?
“The golden relics still exist right now.” Your life is exactly no comment; if so, there is nothing to say about your life. If so, is there no life, no death? But life and death is exactly there. Just, it’s golden, because it’s just like the mountains and skies. Even though you understand your life, even though you don’t understand your life, your life is constantly going just like a mountain, with dignity, with majesty. And then, this is nothing to comment – by you, by anybody. But from that, it is really silent, it is really quiet, it is really dynamic, because from that silence, lots of vitalities, lots of spring water gushing up from that. This is called the dualistic world. You live there.
Nothing to say, but there is a life. That life is not the life you think, you understand, but that is a life which is just like the mountains and the peaks: with dignity, with majesty.
That is called, technically, we say, buddha-nature. We are Buddha.
Buddha is completely greatness, beyond human evaluation.
So that’s why here it says “The golden relics still exist right now.” Where are the teacher’s relics? The teacher died. There relics are here. But if you look at the relics – it’s relics. It’s not the teacher. And then, if you say it’s not the teacher, it’s relics – no, you cannot say it’s not relics; it’s the teacher. Can you say that relics are teacher? No, it’s relics.
So finally, there is nothing to comment about this. Relics you can see right now, right here, but it’s real; it’s really there. Those relics are golden relics. You have to meet, from moment to moment. When you have to respect, we have to respect. Anyway, we have to deal with the relics.
There is the poem said by Ryokan I mentioned before: when he was asked by his disciples, “What is a life and death?” He said, “A maple leaf showing its back, its front. It is falling.”
Back and front are basic fundamental contradictions, very pure contradictions. Regardless of whether you like or dislike, there is a front and back. And then that front and back, so-called contradictions, are always going in the same and one ground. That is called, falling. Vastness of existence.
Because within the leaf, to fall, so-called motion, action, is that which comes into existence including by the help of nature. Spring, autumn, summer, winter, and the rhythm of nature. And then motion, so-called to fall, comes into existence. So to fall is not ideas, to fall is action, motion. So that motion is implication of vastness of existence.
Who takes care of this motion? Maple leaf. “Maple leaf” means individual life. You.
So you fall to the ground, from moment to moment. So there is subjectivity there, so-called person there. Simultaneously, there it is a dharma, so-called teaching, so-called vastness of existence.
What is the vastness of existence? This is just a motion, energy, moving. But that is not the idea of the motion you can see objectively, because it must be something which you should make it alive in your everyday life. In other words, it must be personalized. It must be digested. By what? Your [practice]. Digestion of this motion, so-called vastness of existence, is you, individual practice.
When you see the teacher’s relics, well, actually nothing to say. But when you see this is the teacher’s relics, exactly you should gassho, take care of it.
But when you think it, is it the teacher? No; it’s not the teacher. Is it the relics? No, it’s not relics; it’s the teacher. So finally nothing to say, because it’s vast. It’s really vast.
So when you think, your consciousness cannot reach the real vastness of existence. So naturally, the intellectual sense gears up to go [far]. So that is so-called silence, nothing to say, no words. But even though your intellectual sense cannot reach that point, the bullseye, it’s still there, just like the mountains and peaks, with dignity and majesty there. That is your life. That is “Maple leaf, showing back and front; it is falling.”
Who falls? You fall. You fall, from moment to moment.
But actually you don’t fall, because the universe falls. Because the vastness of the universe is creating something. That is not an idea, it’s motion.
So that’s why, “The golden relics still exist right now; with white foaming waves flooding the skies, where can they be put?” Where are the relics? You cannot say, “Here are the relics in the vastness of existence.” You cannot say [so]; completely nothing.
So, it says,
There’s no place to put them—
No place to put relics, to put the dead. Is this called the dead? No. You cannot say, “This is dead.” But on the other hand, can you say this is not dead? No. You cannot say, “It’s not dead.” So the dead body is not dead; but it’s a dead. So how can you say?
If you start to think of it, you cannot say [anything]. Because if you start to think, you have to put your object in the vastness of existence, very naturally, even though you don’t want it, even though you want to put your object in the intellectual sense. No, you cannot put your object in the intellectual sense or in the dualistic world. No. Very naturally, you have to put it in vastness.
So, finally, that means you don’t know what to say. That’s why he says, “I don’t want to say. I won’t to say.”
But actually, there is a dead body.
54:52
There’s no place to put them—
Even the one who returned to the West with one shoe has lost them.
That means someone says, “[Bodhidharma] went to India carrying with one shoe with his hand; the other shoe is left in China.” Someone says, “His body is buried in China.” Someone says, “He went back to India, carrying the one shoe.” That means it doesn’t matter; don’t worry about it. In the stories, whether he actually went back to India, or he stayed in China and was buried in China – it doesn’t matter. That is a story.
The point is, the dualistic world. If you believe Bodhidharma went back to India, let’s look for the place where he went back. No one knows. But maybe we can try to find it. Maybe over there; maybe this, maybe that. But finally, nothing to say. No one can find his shoe. This is dualistic. Nothing to say.
Even though you don’t know Bodhidharma was really there in China, maybe Bodhidharma was buried in China, maybe Bodhidharma went back to India. But we don’t know where.
One Japanese scholar says Bodhidharma was not a real existing patriarch. Because he couldn’t find exactly references, histories, so he denied Bodhidharma’s [existence]. [He chuckles.] Well that is a scholar’s business; I don’t care.
So, that’s why here it says, “There’s no place to put them; even the one who returned to the West with one shoe has lost them.”
So always there is a contradictory situation here, in our life. So, a different expression of this is sometimes impermanence. Impermanence is the same meaning as emptiness, vastness of existence. And also [there is] causation, the teaching of causation.
So, the structure [or] contents of your reality you live in from moment to moment is based upon two principles. One is impermanence, the other one is causation. So causation is going in the realm of impermanence, that means vastness of existence. So your effort must be applied in the realm of vastness. That means all you have to do is shikantaza. Just do it. Just take care of your life. When you sit down, just sit down.
Regardless of whether you can get the merit or not, well you have to do it.
I told you before the childrens’ story of the tortoise and hare. Tortoise has made enormous effort, completely beyond his label, how slow he is; completely beyond. He is completely free from his label, his lifestyle. Completely beyond, free. And then he made effort, completely. How much? We don’t know. We have to make every possible effort to walk. How much? We don’t know. Constantly. That means, Dōgen Zenji says, hundred, thousand, millions of times you should raise the bodhi-mind. That means, get energy, and live. Stand up straight and then walk. Just like the tortoise. That’s why finally, he beats the [hare].
The other point of tortoise’s life is he never compares his ability with others. He doesn’t expect any reward. Just walk.
So there is nothing. In the story of the tortoise and hare’s race, basically there are two principles. One is completely vastness: being free from his label, his lifestyle, his capability – completely beyond. Then, there is a good place he has to apply his effort. That is walking. Just like a maple leaf, showing front and back; just falling. Without any reward. But there is a [tortoise] there, based on causation. That’s why finally, here is the [tortoise].
So, one point is vastness; the teaching of the vastness of existence. Nothing to comment, about your capability, about your talent. No. Just do it.
Nevertheless, there is human effort, based on causation. So very naturally, you can reach the top.
Do you have questions?
1:03:43
Question: Hojo-san? In the vastness of existence, there is no self. Is that right?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: Then, who makes an effort?
Katagiri Roshi: Heh. [Can you] something about it?
[Laughter.]
You want to say that the universe makes the effort, huh? I don’t believe you. [He laughs.]
Actually nothing, nobody makes the effort. So why don’t you accept you who make the effort?
Return to the [normal], just like the mountains and peaks. This is basic. You have to stand up first in that basic state of existence, okay? Like the mountains and peaks. And then you can make a question: who makes the effort? Who is the person who makes the question now about this? Where is he? Where are you? You’re already in the vastness.
So why don’t you make it? You make the effort.
1:05:45
Question: Hojo-san? If we make our effort which is based on causation, will that lead us to the realization that our life is really based in vastness?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Simultaneously.
That’s why that is called falling. A maple leaf, showing the back and front; it’s falling. Falling is actions; to act, from moment to moment.
But you cannot say anything about these actions, because who makes the effort? We don’t know. [Maybe the] universe. But you cannot say the universe makes me effort; I don’t think so, because you show it’s back and front. Because that universe must be personalized. Personalized means the universe, vastness of existence, must be alive in each individual. And then there is a person and dharma there. The universe, vastness of existence.
If you always makes a question, who makes the effort? I don’t know. If you say so, you always see the human effort from only this [aspect]. So you don’t know. It is a part of the truth, but it doesn’t work in your life. Because there must be the person who takes care of this vastness right now, right here, and who takes responsibility for transmitting this vastness to the next generation. Teaching.
And that’s why there must be person, okay? Do you understand? If there is a teaching and historical Buddha exists, and then no person, no sangha, how can you carry it? How can you practice Buddha’s teaching right now […]? Who takes responsibility for teaching the Buddhism to the next generation?
Or, who takes responsibility for teaching the human history to the next generation? Because you have created human histories. If you make the human histories, human cultures, next, you have to transmit, you have to convey human history and the cultures you have made. Because it’s very important for us.
So for this, we need a person.
Generally speaking, there are three important things. First is ages; ages mean time. And also place, and person.
So place and time means, in Buddhism, that is the dharma. Vastness of existence, basic principle of the human existence. Or truth; we can say truth.
But even though you understand the truth, if you don’t practice, if you don’t make the truth alive in the individual, who can transmit it to the next generation? If there is no person who does it, who does this? In the future, no history, no culture. Nothing. That is really destruction. That is really the end of the world. It’s really powerful, more than nuclear weapons.
So that’s why we need a person.
Question: But Hojo-san, that’s only the end of the idea world. It is not the end of the buddha-nature. Maybe it’s better to stop history transfer. Maybe that’s good!
Katagiri Roshi: [Laughs.] Pretty good.
People realize how important human history is.
1:11:29
Question: Um… why did Bodhidharma go back to India with one shoe?
Katagiri Roshi: I don’t know.
[Laughter.]
Next time when I go back to Japan, I will ask […] the Japanese famous scholar. [Laughter.]
Maybe it’s that 300 years later, maybe people make a little bit of fantastic stories. “Katagiri went back to Japan,” you know? [Laughter.] Wearing the one sandal. No one knows where the sandal is in Minneapolis. At the bottom of Lake Calhoun? Nobody knows. But anyway…