Mindfulness – Talk 3
March 23, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Summary
If you observe the body, the body observes you; there is no one-way traffic. And then, all sentient beings support your observation. Liberation comes from action, but that action must come from emptiness, or liberation itself. First we have to have a very deep faith that all sentient beings have the-same-and-one-nature; and then we have to establish the state of our mind that is like a wall, which is emptiness. Also: Translating Shobogenzo into English is hard.
Transcript
This transcript is in rough draft stage.
This talk is split into two files in the audio archive: Part 1 and Part 2
Part 1
Listen to Part 1 of this talk on mnzencenter.org
Katagiri Roshi: Let me read the next part:
Observing the body is body observing, that is not the observation of other things. The observation at the very moment is far and away the most excellent occurrence. When body observing is manifested, mind observing cannot be groped and found, nor manifested. Therefore it becomes vajra samadhi and śūraṃgama samadhi; both are observation of the body as not-pure. The principle behind Shakyamuni’s sighting of the morning star at dawn is called observing the body as not-pure. It is beyond a matter of drawing comparison between purity and impurity. It is body-being-is-not-pure, or body-manifesting-is-not-pure.
[Completely] you don’t understand what it says. Even in Japanese, we don’t understand he wants to say.
I translated [this] a different way from this [other] version (translated by Kōzen Nishiyama). [That one] tries to translate the original [in a way where] he wants readers to understand it if they read it. That’s very compassionate, very kind. But at that time, that translation goes far away from the original. Because Dogen Zenji uses terms as one word, not separately, for instance body-being-is-not-pure, and body-manifesting-is-not-pure. Each word has a very profound meaning. If you try to translate it in plain words in order to make people understand through your knowledge, completely it is far from the original. Even though in Japanese we don’t understand it, each term [Dogen] uses has a reason why he used it, and it has very profound meaning. That’s why I translate it in a different way, even though you don’t understand it.
But that’s a very interesting thing which always happens in Shobogenzo. People don’t understand it, and if people don’t understand it, we try to make Shobogenzo read in an easy way. But if you do that, the translation becomes very shallow. Through that translation you can convey Dogen’s thought or religion in a sense, but in a shallow way. It’s pretty difficult to translate it into English – or into modern Japanese [he laughs]. It’s pretty hard. So that’s why we have to directly face the original text, and try to understand it. That’s pretty important. For century after century, many priests and monks have done it in that way.
1 - 6:56
Observing the body is body observing, that is not the observation of other things.
We have to see something alive with our body, and with observation or contemplation – not the idea of something particular. Through your body and mind, through your activity, you have to find something alive in everyday life. That’s the point that Dogen Zenji always tries to say.
So through the practice of mindfulness, we have to find something alive, beyond the idea of mindfulness. If we say, “Let’s practice mindfulness,” you always try to concentrate on the breath, and then you say, “I have completed the practice of mindfulness.” I don’t think so! That is that you have an idea of mindfulness for a certain period of time, in a certain area, so-called breath. No! Next moment, right after the breath, you have to return to everyday life – and then the mindfulness is completely gone. [Then] you don’t know how to practice mindfulness.
So real mindfulness, you have to find something really vividly alive with your body. [That] means real mindfulness beyond mindfulness, beyond the idea of mindfulness. We say mindfulness-and-no-mindfulness. You should be free from mindfulness. Free from means your body must be exactly mindfulness. Freedom, liberation, means your body and the idea of mindfulness become one, and also practice and you must be one. Your thinking must be one with mindfulness. All becoming one with mindfulness, that is called mindfulness. How can you leave a trace of mindfulness right there? [You can’t.] Because the whole world – your body, your mind, becomes completely filled with mindfulness, and your circumstances are completely filled with mindfulness – everywhere, mindfulness. If so, do we have to emphasize particularly strongly that “I am doing mindfulness”? No, [there is] no idea [of mindfulness]. That’s why very naturally the idea of mindfulness drops off. That is called no mindfulness – or open hearted, open mindfulness. Or freedom; liberation of the mindfulness.
“Not-pure”: I use [the word] not-pure this time instead of impure. I think not-pure is better, because not as a negative expression means that your life and tree’s life and all sentient beings are completely embraced by the-same-and-one-nature – so-called Buddha Nature, or whatever you say. If everything is completely filled with the-same-and-one-nature, at that time it’s not necessary to emphasize a particular time (or instance) called “the-same-and-one-nature,” because everything is one nature. So very naturally the idea of the-same-and-one-nature drops off. That is called no-buddha-nature.
So Buddha Nature means completely pure, the whole world is filled with purity. At that time, everyone is pure, beyond pure and not-pure. At that time, whatever you pick up, it is pure. If so, it’s not necessary to say, “I am practicing purity.” No. So the idea of purity drops off; that is called not-pure. We say not-purity.
Not-purity means negating purity, but this not-pure means the spirit of being filled with purity. At that time, no purity. That is called not-pure. At that time you [can] find something alive. You can taste, you can experience something alive. You have to find it within your body, with your body, and you have to find it through the practice of observation, contemplation, or mindfulness.
So [it is] not the idea of mindfulness, because… Let me say that observation is completely pure, perfectly pure, beyond purity or impurity. Why? Because if you contemplate or if you observe something, your object, [then] you observe your object. That is the dualistic sense; [it is] very common. And then you judge immediately; think something. That is really taking care of human life according to “one-way traffic”. You never think of two-way traffic. Because if you observe your object, the object observes you. In other words, you are observed by your object. That is subject and object: subject and object are always interacting like this, simultaneously. But our sense is always setting up subject and object [as] separate, and next moment, [instead of seeing] that interaction, we judge it by our customs or patterns of thinking. So that’s why next moment we stumble.
Buddhism always sees that subject and object, because this is a very natural situation. But instead of seeing something and judging it, [the object] being judged by your sense – see something alive between [them], how subject and object are working together. That is interpenetration, or interdependence, we say.
1 - 17:15
Yesterday I told you about the poem composed by Ryokan:
A maple leaf, showing its back and its front. It is falling.
The back and front is subject and object, in other words the dualistic world. The idea of the maple leaf, so-called life and death, is nothing but front and back, the dualistic world. If you think it, very naturally [it is] showing the front, showing the back. But you cannot judge the life of the maple leaf in terms of just the front, when it appears. No; next moment, the front disappears and the back appears. And finally you don’t know what the life of the maple leaf is: is it the front, or is it the back? No. Always front and back, front and back, interacting. And that is what? Action. Activity, motion. That is something alive of the life of the maple leaf. It doesn’t stop even for a moment; it’s always going like this.
Finally, you don’t know what the maple leaf is. The maple leaf just functions: total dynamic working, that’s it. If you think it, if you judge it, if you make a choice of your life, very naturally you can say, “It’s the back,” [or] “It’s the front.” That is an idea: a philosophical idea, a biological idea, [or] a psychological idea. But something alive within the life of the maple leaf is always moving, and acting; constantly functioning.
So finally: I observe the tape recorder, the tape recorder observes me. Who observes? I observe? No. The tape recorder observes me? If so, if I see the state of the observation, at that time can I say, “I observe the tape recorder?” No; completely no. Or, the tape recorder observes me? No. So what is the real observation? Real observation is just total dynamic working between the tape recorder and I. And then, if I think it, and if I think that state of the observation in terms of a particular angle, so-called I – I observe, just I; not tape recorder, I – tape recorder observes tape recorder. Because between the tape recorder and I, [there is] always interacting, so you cannot separate, you cannot analyze between the tape recorder and I right in the middle of the total dynamic working of the tape recorder and I. No. [It’s] just like the maple leaf.
So that is observation. Observation is completely oneness, and oneness is emptiness: nothing to pin down. That is called the-same-and-one-nature. So the front of the maple leaf is always functioning in the realm of the-same-and-one-nature, [the back] is always working in the realm of the-same-and-one-nature. What is this? What is the functioning, what is the total dynamic working of the maple leaf? That is called emptiness.
1 - 22:42
Yesterday I told you that liberation comes from action. But don’t misunderstand this action. That action must be based on emptiness. Don’t expect something [to be] liberated by your action, by the practice of liberation. No, because your action must be liberated.
So if you say, “By my action, I want to create something liberated,” that is already separate. So [there is] no communication there, because you try to create something, you are always going out – so you don’t look at yourself. [If] you are always going out, that means you are empty how, inside or out? So you’re always trying to get some ideas in order to justify yourself.
[For example,] that’s why [there is] borrowing the discipline of Marxism, et cetera, and then, “let’s do it.” That is kind of an “ism,” a discipline of “ism”. In the latest issue of Time magazine, it says that the Vatican, the headquarters of the Roman Catholic Church, is [issuing a] warning, because in El Salvador a Catholic priest is trying to create something liberated, free from the pressure or suffering from the government, from fighting, et cetera, using the idea of action. They are trying to do something against the traditional hierarchy, [in the] liberal style of Catholic teaching. How can you serve the people who suffer from the government, et cetera? You cannot save them by hierarchy, or teaching, et cetera, so very naturally they try to do something by action. But the Vatican is warning the priest that this idea of teaching is based on the principles of Marxism. I don’t know what’s going on there, but the Vatican says it in that way.
Action is important for us, but action shouldn’t be based on any “ism”. Your action must be pure. In order to make your action pure, your action must be based on emptiness. It is pretty difficult to do that. It’s pretty difficult to act on the basis of emptiness because if you act, very naturally act follows thinking, judging, evaluation, and next moment, [there are] affective preferences. So [it’s] very difficult; that’s why action itself must be free, liberated. [If] you want to act in order to get something by your action, your action must be liberated. How? That’s a pretty difficult practice for us! That’s why we’re always practicing like this, learning the teaching. You cannot just act as you like; no, you cannot act in that way.
1 - 28:48
So very naturally [Dogen Zenji says], “Observing the body is body observing.” Observing the tape recorder, who observes? Finally, nothing. Right in the realm of nothing… and then something appears. In the world of nothing, it’s not nothing; simultaneously [something] comes up. That is a creation. So if you see the something created, so-called I, and then I observe, only I appears. I observe I. That’s it! And then, all sentient beings support me, support my observation.
So first of all you have to see the total dynamic working inter-opened by the front and back of the maple leaf, constantly. And then within the world of total dynamic working, then something happens. That is showing the front, [in one] moment. And then that front is an occurrence within our cognition. Then we say: “Yes, maple leaf.” But that maple leaf is seen only from the [front], so it’s not the total picture. It’s like you take a picture of the back of the maple leaf, and then you say “this is a maple leaf.” Of course [it is] a maple leaf, but the maple leaf is seen from just one side; that is called the back, or the front. That is always our understanding. If you judge it, […] that is a sense of value we always have. Our sense of value is important, but it’s very narrow, very shaky. That sense of value we have is always kind of a troublemaker.
The important point is, if you see the back of the maple leaf, you shouldn’t judge the life of the maple leaf in terms of the back, but through the back of the maple leaf you have to see the total picture of the maple leaf. That is functioning, the entire world: total dynamic working. We should understand this. It means we should understand the total picture of the maple leaf interacting between the front and the back through only the back, because the back appears. At that time, only the back appears, that’s it, no front.
So that is “observing the body is body observing”. Observation observes observation, because the entire world is interacting: total dynamic acting. Observation observes observation means observation completely leaves no trace of observation. Body observes body. The back observes the back. The front observes the front. That’s it. So you can say observation of the body, and next moment the body observing, you can say so.
So you can say Dainin Katagiri, and also you can say Minnesota-Zen-Meditation-Center-and-Katagiri, or Katagiri-and-Minnesota-Zen-Meditation-Center, because Meditation Center and Katagiri are the same. Observation and the body are the same, body and observation are the same, because my body is exactly observation. Nothing else. So that’s why it says, “not the observation of other things.” Just observation there. Observation means the action or total dynamic working that’s there.
The observation at the very moment is far and away the most excellent occurrence.
At this very moment, observation is very excellent. [There is] no [comparison]. Just total dynamic working there.
Total dynamic working consists of the idea of front and back. But right in the middle of total dynamic working, you cannot pin down what is front or back – because it’s working. So it’s really something alive. That is called “far and away the most excellent occurrence.” Constantly going.
1 - 36:20
When body observing is manifested, mind observing cannot be groped and found, nor manifested.
The body is exactly one with the mind. You cannot separate mind from body, so mind and body are one. Front and back are one, working together.
Therefore it becomes vajra samadhi and śūraṃgama samadhi; …
Vajra samadhi, diamond samadhi, means very stable, spiritual security: the assurance and relaxation of existence exactly. That’s it. There is presence of the trees, right in the middle of winter; no one can destroy [that]. That is vajra samadhi. So trees show vajra samadhi, constantly.
And śūraṃgama samadhi: śūraṃgama means everything is stable ultimately, in the underlying essence. Ultimate nature is very stable and majestic; that is called śūraṃgama. So, beyond pure and impure, beyond good or bad, right or wrong. Anyway, the ultimate nature is very stable. That is called vajra samadhi or śūraṃgama samadhi.
In the Diamond Sutra it says, “Awaken the mind without abiding [in] anything at all.” “Without abiding [in] anything” means basically ultimate nature is very stable, beyond purity and impurity, weakness or strength. So if you always judge or take care of your life in terms of “without abiding [in] anything,” at that time your life becomes very weak, because there is nothing to depend on. So you don’t know. Idealistically you say the universe supports you and helps you, but practically, you’re very weak, because you are caught by the idea of the universe. The universe is something alive. The universe appears in every aspect of human life – gassho, sleeping, et cetera – so you have to grasp that universe in every aspect of everyday life. So very naturally, awaken the mind in the universe. That is important, but if you depend on only the universe, your life becomes weak. On the other hand, if you are always depending on awakening the mind, it means understanding, everything [is clear]; at that time it’s very reasonable, realistic, and your life becomes strong – but very shallow. Because it’s not deep. So you have to grasp your life which is alive, constantly, beyond the idea of weakness or strength. That is śūraṃgama samadhi.
Basically, first we have to establish a deep faith that all sentient beings have the-same-and-one-nature. And second, we have to establish a state of the mind that is like a wall, so-called emptiness. So that’s why you are always facing the wall. The wall is emptiness.
So first you have to have a very deep faith, that all sentient beings have the-same-and-one-nature. Whatever happens, whether you like or don’t like it, beyond this, everything exists – just like that. That is a very deep faith. Deep faith means your life must stand up straight there. How? That is second. You have to establish the state of your mind that is like a wall, so-called emptiness. In other words, abiding firmly in a state non-dualistic understanding.
So that is the original nature of liberation [of] your actions. Constantly we have to do this, we have to practice this …
Part 2
Listen to Part 2 of this talk on mnzencenter.org
… And then you have to see the human dualistic world from that standpoint. Seeing front and back; dealing with front and back. Basically, you have to stand up in the realm of the-same-and-one-nature. And you have to establish a stable mind which is like a wall. That means abiding firmly in the state of nondualism. Constantly we should do this.
But according to everyday life, we always judge first. Our life first depends on a sense of value; a sense of value comes first. That means when I see the tape recorder, immediately I deal with the tape recorder according to a sense of value. Sense of value means it is useful or it is not useful. Next moment, sense of value is very complicated because it’s backed by affective preferences. Do you understand “affective”? Like or dislike, hatred or love, et cetera. Very natural, very complicated. Our life always depends on this sense of value first. If you see something, immediately that sense of value comes, and then we take care of it. We don’t practice the state of the mind which is called Buddha Nature, or which is called emptiness. No; we always depend on that sense of value.
That’s why Shakyamuni Buddha says, “All sentient beings are Buddha.” Buddha Nature. That means you should be free from [having] a sense of value first. Stand up in the realm of the-same-and-one-nature of all sentient beings. That means emptiness. Practically speaking, that is detachment. Or more concretely speaking, your action must be just like water: passing by, without leaving the trace of your doing. That’s pretty hard. It’s simple, but it’s very hard practice, because action is always very stinky. Personal, individual stinkiness there, because action is based on thinking, evaluation, judgement, et cetera. So action is not so simple. That’s why when you have to act, there must be something that is called practice, which leads you to stand up straight in emptiness.
So if you see the tape recorder, […] before I deal with the tape recorder by my affective preferences, let’s meet the tape recorder as it is. And let’s meet myself too, as it really is. So tape recorder and I all are set up there, in peace, in the-same-and-one-nature. That’s very simple, but it’s very hard, because the moment when you meet, myriad judgements come up.
So let’s put all things, subject and object, in the equal situation. That is establishing the state of mind which is like a wall: emptiness. What do I mean, to establish a state of mind which is emptiness? That is to abide firmly in non-dualism; that means abiding firmly in one-pointedness. That means be one with. Instead of setting up the tape recorder and I, “before I establish affective preferences” means tape recorder and I are exactly placed in equal situations. That means become one. That is very simple, but practically it is very hard, because always our judgement and evaluation work there. So that’s why we have to practice like this, constantly.
So abiding firmly in nondualism, that is called emptiness. How can we do this? This is zazen. Zazen is a very simple practice. That is shamata, we say. Let’s abide firmly in emptiness, so-called shamata. Quiescence. Samadhi. Become one with; no gap between tape recorder and I. No dualistic sense. That is shamata.
And then, you have to deal with the tape recorder and I from that base. That is skillful means. That is human action based on skillful expedient, conducted by a bodhisattva. How do you deal with this tape recorder and I? That is skillful [expedience], which comes from practice: emptiness and Buddha Nature.
So that is called vajra samadhi and śūraṃgama samadhi.
… both are observation of the body as not-pure.
So that is the practice of mindfulness.
2 - 8:36
The principle behind Shakyamuni’s sighting of the morning star at dawn is called observing the body as not-pure.
That means the stars and Buddhas become one. At that time, that is called enlightenment, we say. Enlightenment means nothing to say; just a smile. Because if you touch the core of existence, there is nothing to say. [It is] very impressive, but no words. Because stars and you are one. That is the very original experience, the very pure nature of experience you have had, between stars and you.
And then next moment, you can explain. If you explain about your original or pure experience, that is called philosophy or psychology, science. Huge science comes up. Or a poem; or art.
So observing the body as not-pure is exactly the same as Shakyamuni Buddha’s experience of enlightenment when he saw the morning star at dawn, on December 8th, under the bodhi tree. That is his practice, called “observation of the body as not-pure”. Because his body becomes one with the function of the morning star; his observation is exactly working together with observation of the morning star. And then touching each other, and then that is enlightenment.
And then after that, he tried to explain what the contents of his experience [was]. That is Buddhist teaching. So Buddhist teaching is, if you combine all Buddha’s teaching into one, that is a very simple experience, a simple, pure sense of experience. After [that], you can extend it, spread it; you can build a huge mansion. That is philosophy, psychology, physics, and many things.
So that’s why “the principle of Shakyamuni’s sighting of the morning star at dawn is called observing the body as not-pure.”
2 - 12:02
It is beyond a matter of drawing comparison between purity and impurity.
Because it’s very original experience. The moment when you touch the core of existence – that’s it. Just like a flash of lightning. Completely beyond a sense of comparison. If you create a sense of comparison, well, you can express or spread that simple experience to philosophy, psychology, [or] to eighteen thousand Buddhist scriptures.
It is body-being-is-not-pure, …
That means, first of all, stand up straight in emptiness, constantly. Buddha [says] that. That means constantly functioning, with tape recorder and I, without dividing, without separating. That is Buddha Nature. Which is [to] put tape recorder and put others in the-same-and-one-ground, without discriminating. That is [that] you must be open yourself. Your mind must be magnanimous. At that time, body-being means the presence of your body is completely beyond purity or impurity. Your birth, your existence, your presence, is exactly Buddha Nature.
And he says,
… or body-manifesting-is-not-pure.
It’s also body-manifesting, which means [your] body expresses your body in many ways: so-called gassho, so-called washing your face, so-called sleeping, so-called eating a meal, so-called training in spiritual life, et cetera. That is body-manifesting. Body-manifestations, constantly; according to the maple leaf, that is called sometimes it shows the front, sometimes it shows the back. Many backs, many fronts; the body always shows front, and back, front, back. And then through showing the back of your body, then you should understand the total picture of your life. That is total dynamic working; the universe. Anyway, if you see the back of your life, still your basic attitude is constantly standing up straight in the realm of Buddha Nature. That is the fundamental step of walking: step by step, walk. That is grounding your life.
And then, deal with it.
Do you have questions?
2 - 16:14
Question: What was the name of the poet who wrote the poem about the maple leaf?
Katagiri: Ryokan Zen Master.
Question: Is it a haiku?
Katagiri: […] It’s not a haiku. I don’t know.
Question: What is it?
Katagiri: It’s life. [Laughter.]
Question: [Unintelligible.]
Question: I wonder if it would help to understand that, when he wrote that poem, he was probably not thinking anything about purity or impurity. All he was thinking of was…
Katagiri: Well, basically, he accepts life and death. Just functioning.
Same person: But when he wrote the poem, all he was thinking about was the leaf.
Katagiri: Yeah, but if he thinks, immediately he can see the front and the back. So that’s why he says…
Same person: But he didn’t think that meant anything. He didn’t think that the front meant purity and the back meant impurity.
Katagiri: But you can’t ignore the thinking, because you are already thinking. But the basic attitude – you have to stand up straight – is always functioning of life and death, as total dynamic working. Beyond front or back, front or back. Only the-same-and-one activities there. That is falling. Do you understand?
That occurrence of the falling comes from where? […] the universe. Interconnected, interpenetrated with all sentient beings. And then, falling appears.
Same person: It just seems that if you try to analyze the poem with that, it almost becomes more confusing.
Katagiri: Yeah, right. That is a poem. [He laughs.] A poem is always explaining. But Zen doesn’t explain. Just be present.
But we are still confused. [He laughs.] Zen constantly puts you in the simplicity in life, you know? If you experience the source of existence, then immediately that’s so-called enlightenment. So don’t explain enlightenment. Be there. Practice there. Get a taste of your life. Teach there; teach that. That’s all.
But it’s not art. It’s […] Zen is not philosophy, but people are very confused, always showing that simplicity, that’s why we have to explain. But if you explain, very naturally it becomes art. So Buddhist teaching becomes art. And then the life explained by the Buddha’s teaching becomes art. So it’s beautiful; blooming flowers, so-called Buddha Nature. So that is the Buddhist philosophy and psychology. But Buddhism is not philosophy; Buddhism is a very simple practice. So just staying and tasting and accepting the origin of experience. The [very] origin.
I told you before, maybe Rilke’s poem. Do you remember? Rilke says, “Rose. Oh! Sheer contradiction. Desire to be no one’s sleep, under so many layers.” This poem is inscribed on his gravestone.
His first “Rose” is just a rose there. Just like the tape recorder. Next moment, he says, “Oh!” What does “oh” mean? He is really impressed strongly by the presence of rose. At that time, within the “Oh!” there is no form of rose. A completely different rose appears. So that is… how can I say it? We don’t know. So if you really experience the origin of rose’s life, it’s very impressive. And then, he says just “Oh!” So that is the very original nature of primitive word, coming directly from the very pure experience.
And then next, he says, “Sheer contradiction.” It means, how he accepted that [original] “Oh!” and then he started explaining it. That is how he accepted it. It means sheer contradiction. Because within the simple experience, the simple life, that’s it – “Oh!”, that’s it. Your birth is just this wonderful life. It’s that original “Oh!”, includes the wonderful vastness of existence. Something more than Newton’s discovery of gravity from the apple falling. [He chuckles.] Do you understand? Newton was very impressed by the apple falling, but religiously speaking, … “Oh!” That’s huge impression there, something more than Newton’s discovery. That is so-called simplicity. Your life. Your death. Your gassho. That’s it. And then, how can you accept that? And then we start to explain. And then, that is “sheer contradiction.” Completely beyond your speculation, contradiction there. Showing front and back, front and back, but the simple life is going there. Within the simplicity, complicated life there. So it’s very sheer contradiction. Completely beyond your speculation.
And then next, he still continued to explain, how does he digest that original “Oh!”. He says, “Desire to be no one’s sleep under so many layers.” So he explains about sheer contradiction. Sheer contradiction consists of two: one is “under so many layers”. That means many layers of human life, lots of aspects of human life: suffering, pleasure, lots of stuff. Day by day, the samsaric world. But under so many layers, there is perfect sleep. That means perfect peace. No one can imitate. That is spiritual security. Spiritual security, great peace, but on the other hand, so many layers. Suffering… but within this, there is peace. How can you find it? Right in the middle of the rose. So that comes back to the beginning of the poem: rose. And then rose gives a hint to […] That is “Oh!”
That is a poem. But Zen is always saying just “Oh!” But something more than “Oh”; before “Oh,” okay? [He laughs.] Zen always lets you live, lets you stay in the pure sense of original world. The pure sense of the experience, you create the word. You create something in a word. Still there is a pure sense of experience, before you say “Oh.” So Zen always puts you there, and live there, and be free from that. Exactly you have to live in there, you have to jump in. Jumping around, you have to vividly live in there. That is Zen teaching. So it’s not art. It’s very boring. [He laughs.] It’s very boring, actually, through your senses. It makes you bored. But strictly speaking, it’s a really great discovery there.
So, [Ryokan] also says, “My poem is not a poem, people say.” So his poem is not a poem. So that poem, his poem or Bassho’s poem are not real poems. It’s life. But if you want to compose a wonderful poem, you have to say something more. Just like Ryokan. You have to stretch one simplicity, in a beautiful sense, in an artistic sense, and then you become a great poet, you become a great artist. Bassho did sometimes, but Bassho didn’t do it in that way. Very simple expressions. That’s why it’s not art. Ryokan says his poem is not a usual poem.
2 - 29:16
Question: Roshi? When you talk about emptiness and no-emptiness, and you say that how to attain or reach emptiness, you say practice. But how do we practice with no goal, and with nothing to attain, just being empty? So no purpose, no idea. Because I know practice is not a tool, to emptiness, but how to do practice with no purpose?
Katagiri: You have to understand the purpose based on purpose and not-purpose. […] human action. Human action always has a purpose. Nevertheless, right in the middle of that purpose of a human action, you have to find something more than the idea of purpose or not-purpose. That is called no purpose, no goal. That’s pretty hard practice, but in other words, that is a very simple practice. And also simple human activities. But human activity is already complicated. So you have to find the simplicity of human activity, within the complication of human activity. Do you understand that one? [He chuckles.] That’s why your eyes, nose, ears, human body, human mind, you have to polish, again and again. It’s not “stinky”; your body and your mind are already Buddha Nature. Buddha Nature means already exists beyond your speculation, just like the trees, birds, et cetera. So that is called “let’s stand up in the realm of Buddha Nature”. That means your life activity is complicated, that doesn’t mean stinky. Alright? No. It already exists. Don’t deal with the complication of activity as stinky. No. You should deal with the complication of human activity as a Buddha. And then at that time, you can practice. You can listen to Buddha Nature, you can listen to Buddha’s teaching with your ears. And then simultaneously the teaching returns to you, if you always put yourself in the realm of Buddha. But if you have discrimination, when you see your body, the complication of human activity, so-called stinky, Buddha’s teaching doesn’t return to you, because you always confine yourself into your shell. Even though you listen to Buddha’s teaching, Buddha’s teaching doesn’t return to you. So first of all, you have to stand up there. Open. That is constantly listening to Buddha Nature; Buddha’s teaching, anyway. Beyond your mind is pure or impure. Anyway, listen, constantly listen. Dogen Zenji mentions later in this chapter, anyway, listen. Clean your room, listen, beyond clean or not clean. That’s our practice. And then that human activity is simultaneously to let you be in emptiness, and simultaneously that is practically speaking, shamata practice. That practicing of shamata leads you reach the clear observation of how the human world is going. Clear observation.
So shamata lets you be right in the middle of emptiness. Simultaneously, shamata leads you to clear observation of the world. So you can be emptiness, but can see the human world, what the human world is. So very naturally, the basic attitude toward human life occurs.
So that is our practice, constantly. Well, traditionally there are many practices, and simply speaking, […], samadhi, meditation, and wisdom. That is very basic. Or sometimes, mindfulness. Or “Thirty-Seven Bodhisattva Practices Contributing to Enlightenment” – thirty-seven practices, there. That is very traditional.
Is that alright?
Same person: And emptiness is like purity and no purity, no emptiness also. Not any thing, just emptiness and no emptiness, back and forth.
Katagiri: What’s that?
Same person: Emptiness also, we must be empty also, no emptiness, to want or to have or to possess, or attain.
Katagiri: Sure, but that’s why I ask, what is that?
Same person: Well, sometimes…
Katagiri: “What is that” means how can you practice it? It’s not an explanation; you have to do something there.
Same person: Yes, you still have to just do without emptiness … the practice must be then without emptiness as a goal…
Katagiri: Still you’re explaining. But how do you do it?
Same person: How do I do it? Just doing.
Katagiri: You are still explaining. The point is, how do you do it?
Same person: [He laughs.] I don’t know.
Katagiri: That’s good.
[Laughter.]
Same person: For myself, I think emptiness, I feel I must also no-emptiness. I want to be empty like the leaf, back and front, so empty, no empty, and empty, no empty, but not holding on to empty or no empty. That’s when I try, I try to be empty and no empty. No idea, maybe. So I don’t hold on to much to my desire to be empty.
Katagiri: The question is, I understand what you said, you understand what you said, but you don’t understand exactly how do you do it.
Same person: Yes, I don’t know.
Katagiri: Sure, that’s great, you know? You have to always have a question: how do you do it? That is very important for us. Because always emptiness: what do you mean, emptiness? Emptiness is you always have to reflect upon yourself: what do you do? How do you do it? Constantly you have to keep your eyes open. Keep your eyes open is manifested as a question: how do I do it? But you cannot always say, “How do I do it,” no. You have to do it.
So always there is a sheer contradiction there. How do I do it? I don’t know. But you cannot stay “I don’t know” with I don’t know. So you have to do it, right in the middle of “I don’t know”. Okay? That is life.
That is simplicity. Simplicity is a very simple, pure simplicity [he laughs], beyond simplicity or complication. That is the simplicity Zen always talks about.
It’s very difficult to understand it, but practically, it’s very simple, that’s why you have to practice it. Still there is a universal openness to everyone, to get into that simplicity, through the practice. Even though you don’t understand the principle of that practice, still there is a chance. So let’s do it. But you cannot do it by yourself, because our action is already complicated. That’s why we need practice under the guidance [of a teacher]. Anyway, guidance.
2 - 40:52
Question: Zen practice, are you supposed to pick out a spot on the wall and stare at it, and you’re actually supposed to be looking at the wall? At one point on the wall, and maintaining [that]?
Katagiri: No. You mean like sitting facing the wall?
Same person: Yeah. Is the wall just supposed to be there, or are you actually supposed to be looking at it?
Katagiri: No. Wall there, but the not wall there. If you say wall is there, at that time you observe the wall, don’t you think so? [He laughs.]
Same person: But I just mean…
Katagiri: Just sit down there, anyway! You know, without looking at the wall, without being obsessed with the wall.
Same person: Well, it was just a question about technique, you know? Are you supposed to keep your eyes…
Katagiri: Sure. And that’s why I always say to cast down your eyes on the floor. But if you face the wall, actually you should keep a certain distance. It’s too close to the wall. Actually we have more space between you and the wall. That’s pretty good for us. But we don’t have enough space, that’s why we sit pretty close to the wall.
Same person: You mean the zendo should be bigger?
Katagiri: Oh, I think so! [He laughs.] Idealistically. I would like to have a big zendo, but it’s impossible now, so I should practice patience. [Laughter.] So, facing the wall, that’s alright. But a certain area, not only one point, a certain area, a little bigger area.
2 - 43:02
Question: […] When you said to practice Buddhism first you have to have a strong faith in the Buddha’s teaching and you have to keep listening to it, and when you’re doing those, I think it’s true in other religious groups we’re the same way, and well, to find out that you have to be careful to listen to both, but still for me we are doing something we don’t know yet. I mean, we know as a teaching, but we don’t know what kind of things we can base on to judge if we are doing the right thing or the wrong thing. What?
Katagiri: I’m not selling a religious faith, okay? Because Buddhist faith is already based on the deep understand of the source of existence. So from this point, whether you don’t have faith or have faith, anyway your life is already right in the middle of faith. So from this point, it’s not necessary to think I should have faith or I shouldn’t have faith. Okay? Anyway, let’s have a white canvas of your life. Faith or not faith doesn’t matter: your life is a white canvas. Temporarily, it’s called faith, because that faith is supporting your life. That white canvas is open to you and to everyone. To your future. You can draw any kind of thing …