Blue Cliff Record Case 52: Chao Chou Lets Asses Cross, Lets Horses Cross – Talk 1
January 21, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Summary
Katagiri Roshi discusses stone bridges, single log bridges, and bridges that let everything cross. In relation to this he comments on Zen Master Dōgen’s Yuibutsu yobutsu, “Only Buddha and Buddha”.
Transcript
This transcript is in draft stage.
0:00
Case Number 52: “Chao Chou Lets Asses Cross, Lets Horses Cross.”
The Case:
A monk asked Chao Chou, “For a long time I’ve heard of the stone bridge of Chao Chou, but now that I’ve come here I just see a simple log bridge.”
Chou said, “You just see the log bridge; you don’t see the stone bridge.”
The monk said, “What is the stone bridge?”
Chou said, “It lets asses cross, it lets horses cross.”
( From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary.)
“The stone bridge”: […] Chao Chou is the Zen master’s name, but taking after the name of the place Chao Chou. So, [according to the commentary]:
In (the place) Chao Chou there is a stone bridge; ever since it was built (in the Latter Han dynasty) by Li Ying, it has been famous throughout the country. A simple log bridge is a bridge (made of) a single log.
That’s what the commentary says. So, “the stone bridge of Chao Chou” is the implication of talking about Chao Chou himself, in relation with the stone bridge of Chao Chou which was pretty famous throughout the country. This monk has heard for many years how famous the stone bridge of Chao Chou is. So that’s why he wants to see it, to meet it – meet him, anyway. Because he expects lots of things from the stone bridge, which is pretty famous.
But “now that I’ve come here I just see a single log bridge” means now that he has come here and seen the stone bridge directly, without his imagination – [now that] he is here in front of him – he cannot see the stone bridge but a single log bridge. That means this monk completely downgraded how the stone bridge of Chao Chou is. Do you understand?
So, Chao Chou said, “You just see the log bridge, but you don’t see the stone bridge.” In other words, the monk sees just the outside of Chao Chou, but he cannot see the total picture of Chao Chou himself.
That’s why the monk said, “What is the stone bridge?”
Chao Chou said, “It lets asses cross, it lets horses cross.”
[The] bridge is not a particular bridge, so-called stone bridge or golden bridge, [which lets] particular persons or particular things cross, but this stone bridge is a great bridge which lets everything, without discrimination, cross through. That’s what Chao Chou said. What is the stone bridge? The stone bridge is a wonderful bridge. Anything – donkeys, horses, cows, cars – anything can pass through.
That’s why Chao Chou said [it] in this way.
[…] Chao Chou is a very famous Zen master. Dōgen Zenji mentions [him] very often in his works, with great admiration. It is said that he became a monk at 60 years old, and he studied and practiced under the guidance of his teacher, Nansen, for 20 years. And then after that, he started to travel, to see teachers and practice throughout China, for 20 more years. And then he became the abbot of the temple in the place of Chao Chou – Joshu in Japanese. So, in this case, I think this Chao Chou was almost 100 years old. Because when he was 60 years old, he became a monk and practiced for 20 years, and then after that he traveled for 20 years. So […] 100 years. And then he became the abbot of the temple, so when he became the abbot of the temple he was already 100 years old.
So in this case, I think he was already 100 years old. So he was a very wonderful, mature person. [Laughter.] Very mature. 100 years.
Maybe you can understand the progress of human life in terms of three points. One point, the first stage, is fruit. Second, the ripeness of fruit. [Third], the perfect ripeness of fruit.
For instance, a beautiful persimmon on a tree – that is a fruit. That is awareness of buddha-nature, or awareness of how important human life is, how sublime human life is. So you respect yourself, you respect others. That is the first stage. That is a fruit.
And then, gradually this persimmon is getting ripe. So, pretty sweet. Not exactly sweet, not exactly ripe, but it’s ripe. That is the second stage. When you study hard and practice hard, then your personality, your human life is getting ripe. And then [you are] understanding people pretty well, and also yourself.
And the third stage: when the persimmon is completely ripe on the branch, very naturally that persimmon falls down to the ground, and the guts of the persimmon come out. Do you understand that one? [He chuckles.]
That’s pretty nice. “Guts come out” means whatever it is, whatever you want, everything comes out, but it [isn’t] against any rule and the reason of nature, and [it is] exactly going smoothly. That means egolessness. According to egolessness everything comes out. So, perfect maturity of human personality.
That is the three stages.
So, the ripeness of the fruit is not good enough. Because, for instance, finishing high school or university, and getting the degrees, [like] doctorate degrees – it’s ripe, but it’s not ripe exactly. After that you have to polish yourself again and again. And then, maybe […] you can let your life mature and ripen, so then you become a great medical doctor et cetera as a human being, because you can help.
But it’s not good enough. So, you have to make your life more mature – until the maturity of fruit falls down to the ground and all the guts come out. That means your personality is not only working in your territory, so-called [field of] medicine, or psychology, or music. But also, when your maturity is perfected, completed, at that time your maturity, personality is working everywhere, even in daily routine, even though [it is] out of your music area or psychological area as a professional. Wherever you may go, your life is really working smoothly.
That is called freedom, emancipation. Or maturity, or adept.
So, I think Chao Chou in this koan is really mature and perfect ripeness of fruit. So everything is going pretty smoothly, naturally. So nothing sharp in the words. He uses words, but those words are not very sharp. Priests’ words come up very naturally, smoothly. But lots of information is there, instruction is there.
So that is Joshu in this koan.
16:10
And the point that this koan teaches us is that no matter how long you imagine something before you see or you do [it]… now that you see that something directly, maybe the reality will be reversed.
Before you practice Zen, you imagine lots of things about Zen – through books, or through the teachings, through your friends, et cetera. And now that you have got into the Zen practically – maybe you cannot see real Zen, maybe you can see a log bridge. But before you practice Zen, maybe you really expect something, so-called golden bridge, famous stone bridge, because it is pretty famous. But when you go and see directly, maybe you cannot see it. Most people can see just a log bridge.
Dōgen Zenji also [says] in his Shobogenzo (in the chapter Yuibutsu yobutsu, “Only Buddha and Buddha”):
When you realize buddha-dharma, you do not think, ‘This is realization just as I expected.’ Even if you think so, realization invariably differs from your expectation. Realization is not like your conception of it. For this reason, realization cannot take place as previously conceived. When you realize buddha-dharma, you do not consider how realization came about. You should reflect on this. What you think one way or another before realization is not a help for realization.
So, “when you realize buddha-dharma”: buddha-dharma is your original nature of existence, which is constantly gushing out like spring water from the ground. This is the life energy which everyone has, everything has. Even a tree, birds, et cetra. That life energy is constantly gushing out like spring water from the ground, constantly. It means constantly changing, constantly developing. There is no chance you can stop, [no place] you can be stuck. It is constantly developing.
It means you can constantly knock on the door. If you knock on the door, constantly something comes up.
Another [thing] I always tell you, [about] personality or capability. You judge yourself, your capability in terms of the record of your high school, and the record of your university, and teachers, and parents, et cetera. So you give a certain grade to your capability. Well, this is a part of your capability, but it’s not a whole picture of your capability or personality. If you knock on the door of the capability, the capability is coming up constantly, just like spring water, which you have never thought before. It is really true.
The more you knock on the door, the more it’s coming up. You don’t expect [it]. Before you do [it], you imagine the limitation of your capability or personality, et cetera. But it is not the real capabilities or abilities you have. It is constantly developing, constantly. Just like spring water.
So that is called buddha-dharma. Buddha-dharma means the original nature of the being [that] everything has is life energies which are gushing out from the ground like spring water. Constantly developing, constantly changing. That is called buddha-dharma.
When you realize buddha-dharma, when you see it, then, well, it is called enlightenment. Well, through zazen or through working hard, through taking the best care of your life, maybe you attain enlightenment. When you realize buddha-dharma, you cannot think of it. Because if you really realize that depth of human life, you cannot explain it. It’s within you, but you cannot pin down exactly what it is. In other words, it’s pretty hard to show it or to give it to somebody. Because enlightenment or awareness of the total picture of human life is very individual, personal, spiritual security. Very personal. It’s very difficult to show.
But still [there is] a chance to teach or to guide people, because you are there and you act on this spiritual security in your everyday life. That’s why even though you don’t say anything, you just sit down, [still] you can teach. Your silence can teach people. Because you are constantly developing in the realm of spiritual security.
“So when you realize buddha-dharma, you do not think, ‘this is realization just as I expected.’” No. Completely [not].
Maybe you expect something about Japan before you go – through the pictures, through the explanation. But when you go to Japan, maybe reality will be completely reversed. [Maybe] you are really disappointed, in a sense. Maybe so. So “even if you think so, realization invariably differs from your expectations.” Real enlightenment, the total picture of Japan as it is, is completely beyond your imagination which you can make before you go. So you have to see through Japan very deeply, or America very deeply, wherever you may go. Anyway, you can make imaginations, but you have to see something real. For this, you cannot say, “This is the real thing I expected.” You cannot say so.
So, “Even if you think so, realization invariably differs from your expectations. Realization is not like your conception of it.” I think so! So you judge yourself, you judge others, but it’s not a real picture [of] real life. You have to respect from the bottom of your heart.
So realization is not like your conception of it… “For this reason, realization cannot take place as previously conceived.” What you have conceived, or what you have made imagination of something, is just imagination. It’s not something real.
27:17
When you realize buddha-dharma, you do not consider how realization came about. You should reflect on this. What you think one way or another before realization is not help for realization.
Buddhism – well, not only Buddhism, so-called religion generally – is not the way to see something externally.
We are always looking at or studying something externally. Well, any kind of science, [for example] physics. Physics tries to understand something as it is, before someone [touches it]. So they try to understand something as it is, but still, in terms of science, physics, we are always studying from the outside. Because before you research, without ideas, you expect you can research. So if you find a certain [truth], then you can research what this truth is. But if you reach the truth which you have imagined, then you can get another idea of the truth. So you have to go, you have to move again. Constantly you have to do [this]. That is science – very natural.
But Buddhism or religion is not something like this. Religion is to let you participate in oneself as it is. Anyway, you have to participate [in] you, including your object. Participate means you have to know yourself.
In other words, according to science, I tell you pretty often, you can research how many molecules the world has, et cetera. And you can understand the characters of each molecule, and how they communicate with each other. But still we don’t understand the full presence water as it is, right-now-right-here. No matter how long you try to study in terms of chemistry, you don’t understand it yet. Nobody [does]. But Buddhism is to know the full presence of water, right-now-right-here. Instead of researching how many molecules are there, how each molecule is related to each other – no. [That] is science’s business.
That’s an interesting point, alright? That’s a big difference. Do you understand?
The water is here, right now, right here, completely beyond your understanding in terms of chemistry. Even though you don’t understand, water is right here. If water is right here – what do you do?
For instance, I tell you pretty often, a TV set is here. You don’t understand the TV set – but if a TV set is here, what do you do?
Very naturally, you are [communicating with it]. Well, in many ways, people communicate with [it]: “I don’t like a TV set” – this is also one of the communications you do. Or you say, “I like a TV set.” Or you say, “Mmm, no” – this is also one of the communications. And if you are really interested in it, next you have to push a button. Anyway, turn on the switch. This is communication.
So if water is exactly right here, right now, you have to communicate, because it is a part of your life. And also, if you try to communicate with water which exists right now, right here, that full presence of water is completely beyond your imagination, beyond the understanding of water in terms of chemistry.
In terms of chemistry, the water is drinkable. For this, water must be pure. Yes, it is – H2O, it’s drinkable. It must be drinkable. But in reality, the full presence of water tells you sometimes it’s not pure, but it’s drinkable, it still supports your life, anyway.
You don’t believe this, but during the Second World War, my brother said there was completely no water. Then one day, he found a certain place and there was a little water there on the ground, but that water was completely dirty. Sometimes, an insect dies, an animal dies around the earth, you know. But all people were very thirsty, so they drank. But that dirty water, anyway, quenched their thirst. They survived.
So that is reality, anyway. In terms of the chemical point of view, you cannot drink it. But the full presence of water is completely free from any ideas, whatever you say. That’s why it’s very complicated. That’s why I say the real reality of water, which exists right now, right here, gives you lots of possibilities.
The real reality of your personality or capability gives lots of possibilities to you. If you get into it deeply, it gives you lots of possibilities. No limitations.
We have to understand this.
So that’s why I say Buddhism is to let you participate in yourself, instead of researching yourself from outside. But even though I say you participate [in] yourself, “in yourself” means still you participate yourself from where? Outside. Psychologically, philosophically, or emotionally, you research yourself. So it’s pretty hard to participate directly. But Buddhism always mentions this point.
[…] According to this koan, Joshu Zen Master says […] that monk saw a log bridge: that is studying from the outside, through his imagination, through his ideas of what Chao Chuo was. But he didn’t participate in the stone bridge itself. To see the stone bridge is to participate in himself, as he is. In other words, he has to understand, he has to be one real reality… of himself. That’s why Joshu Zen Master says it like this.
But, “What is the stone bridge?” What is participating in yourself directly? What is it?
Joshu Zen Master didn’t say anything sharp and instructive. He uses a very usual case: so-called stone bridge. Anything – donkeys, horses – anything can pass through. That means to participate in yourself is to learn yourself who is really boundless, vast. Accepting anything. Donkeys, horses… suffering, pain… all pass through. [Spring water gushing out] from the ground, constantly. If you knock on the door, anything comes up. Wonderful capability comes up, [which] you have never expected.
You don’t believe zazen, but if you do zazen, you can experience this.
I became a monk at 18 years old, and I didn’t have any idea of Buddhism, any idea of spiritual life. But after practicing a couple of years – not a couple of years, anyway, practicing hard – strangely enough, you know, something came up. When people asked me about spiritual life, something came up. I was very surprised – amazed – to see these situations.
This is not only my case: your case too. So, anyone. If you want to become a doctor, anyone can do it, okay? Even though according to your grade in high school or university it’s not good, still a possibility is there. Anyone.
So that is, Joshu Zen master says, “Let the asses cross, let the horses cross.” It means your nature is really bottomless. Vast.
41:41
What does it mean? Bottomlessness of your personality is which is called buddha. We say buddha, or vastness of your nature, or vastness of your capability. [This is what] is called buddha-nature, or buddha, buddha-dharma; we say so.
Dōgen Zenji says here (in Yuibutsu yobutsu):
When you are of unsurpassed wisdom, you are called buddha.
“Unsurpassed wisdom” is vastness of nature. Okay? Vastness of nature, or buddha-nature, you can say so.
Everyone is of unsurpassed wisdom. Completely vastness.
[Tape change.]
… Because unsurpassed wisdom, vastness of your personality or capability, must be something in you, not outside of you. It must be seen in your life – not as an idea of vastness of your personality. It must be in you, in your life. At that time, you are called buddha, because unsurpassed wisdom, vastness of existence is alive in you. That’s why you are called buddha.
But if you understand it as an idea of vastness, it’s not buddha.
So that’s why here it says, “When you are of unsurpassed wisdom, you are called buddha.”
Buddhism is not an idea. Buddhism always explains psychologically, philosophically, but it’s not real Buddhism, it is a teaching. But a teaching must be alive in your everyday life. At that time, you are called buddha.
So,
When the buddha is of unsurpassed wisdom, it is called unsurpassed wisdom.
This is also an interesting point: unsurpassed wisdom.
When you become a buddha, your life must be alive as a buddha. “Buddha” means, anyway, fluidity of life. Constant developing in the vastness of being, existence. Alright?
So, for instance, I told you the three stages of progress. Fruit, ripeness of fruit, and complete […] perfect ripeness of fruit.
Well, when you become 70, 80, and 90, you are really emancipated, your life, your real personality is really emancipated. It means all the guts come up, you know? Freely comes up, anyway. If so, [can you not] experience liberty or freedom until you are 80 years old? 90 years old? [He laughs.] You think so, huh?
But this is still the idea of liberty [or] perfect ripeness.
So, anyway, even if you become 90, [can you then] say this is the top of the progress of human life? No, you cannot say so. Still that ripeness is constantly developing, progressing constantly.
That’s why Dōgen Zenji says, “When the Buddha is of unsurpassed wisdom, it is called unsurpassed wisdom.” It means unsurpassed wisdom must be alive in you. At that time, you are called buddha. Buddha means to live in the realm of vastness. Constantly developing, without staying at a certain stage.
So, “when the Buddha is of unsurpassed wisdom” – so when you reach the stage of buddha – then you say, “I have reached the top of ripeness, so-called buddha.” No. Buddha still […] stands up from his own seat. It means buddha is still developing in human life.
That’s why it says here, “When the buddha is of unsurpassed wisdom, it is called unsurpassed wisdom.”
So “unsurpassed wisdom” […] is a kind of a compass, [showing you] in which direction you can go. This compass in Buddhism is a really great compass. Okay? [He laughs.] To guide you to live freely. To guide you not to stop, not to stay with a certain stage. That is a compass, a buddha’s compass – so-called wisdom.
So “…it is called unsurpassed wisdom…”
Not to know what it is like on this way is foolish.
That’s why if you don’t know this, no matter how long you understand the idea of unsurpassed wisdom, or buddha, or whatever, it doesn’t work in your life. If it doesn’t work in your life, it’s nothing but imagination or an idea. An idea or imagination is fine, but there is a dangerous situation that happens before you notice, because according to the idea we always create the opportunity to fight each other.
49:45
So next he says,
What it is like is to be undefiled. To be undefiled doesn’t mean that you try forcefully to exclude…
… how can I say …
… direction or preference, …
Well, let me say that’s it, temporarily.
… or that you establish a state of no directions. Being undefiled cannot be turning toward or preference at all.
[…] What it is like to be undefiled: unsurpassed wisdom, or buddha-nature, or buddha-dharma. Well, what is this? It means to be un-defiled. Un-defiled means completely beyond defiled or undefiled. Beyond any kind of ideas. That is called undefiled. Before you touch it. Before you are born. That’s why Zen always says, “You have to know the self before your parents’ birth.” Before the birth of your world, anyway. So that is called undefiled. So buddha-nature or buddha-dharma or wisdom is what? It is something undefiled.
Well, what does it mean? “To be undefiled doesn’t mean that you try forcefully to exclude”… here it says “intention or direction”… “or that you establish a state of no intention.” Well, intention means a direction. Direction means you try to direct yourself toward this way or that way. If you make a choice of this way, why do you make a choice of this way? Because you feel good, or it’s useful, or it’s valuable; that’s why you make a choice this way. How about this [other] one? You don’t like it because it’s not good.
That is so-called intention or direction. We always make a choice of direction to go. It means we always try to get something; in order to get something, we direct ourselves toward. If you don’t get anything, you don’t want to direct yourself toward this way or that way.
So we are always looking around a direction. Do you understand? So filling up with satisfaction of human desire, constantly. It means your mind is always going out, going out. [He laughs.] Going out, constantly.
So, to be undefiled doesn’t mean that you try forcefully to exclude direction, directing yourself toward, or discrimination. That means the preference, it means [an] alternative; affective preferences. That means discriminations. Taking, or throwing [away]. Either.
For instance, if you look around always the direction to go, filling up the satisfaction of your desire, very naturally the next moment you want to take this one. And to take this one means you throw that one [away]. Do you understand? So that’s why that is direction or discrimination. Very naturally [an] alternative comes up.
So in our daily life, we are always getting something. To get something means to make a choice of direction, simultaneously, you can get [something]. But to get something means to throw [away] that [other] one. [That] means you negate the present.
To negate your present means to go out. Do you understand? To go out – so you never have a chance to come back to you, and settle down, settle yourself in the self, and be stable. You never do it. If you continually try to fill up the satisfaction, looking for a direction with the affective preferences, always there is uneasiness, and madness, lots of madness there. So that’s why it’s pretty hard for us to participate in ourselves directly.
So to be undefiled means not to be a hungry ghost – [he laughs] – to watch a direction, in terms of pros and cons, success and failure. Because simultaneously that means negating your [presence], always going out. So very naturally, if you negate the present, you don’t satisfy the presence, that’s why you have to go out, and get [to] some place where you can feel good.
So to be undefiled doesn’t mean this. “To be undefiled doesn’t mean you try forcefully to include intention or discrimination, or that you establish a state of no intention. Being undefiled cannot be turning toward or discriminated at all.” Not [an] alternative. Not turning down, not turning toward. To participate in yourself, instead of participating in from outside, means to be with you who cannot go anyplace, who cannot get anything, who cannot throw anything. Do you understand?
Who is yourself? Who is [the] real self?
Real self is, you cannot move an inch. Wherever you may go.
You say that […] you don’t like this winter. Of course. But actually, no matter how long you say you don’t like or you like, anyway, no way to go. Winter is winter. And you are you. You cannot go anyplace!
So your life is really your life. No one takes care of you. No one… well, no one interrupts you.
So what is your life? Your life is your life which you cannot go anyplace.
And also what is your life? Is your life something you can take something good from your life, or you can throw away something you don’t like? No. Nothing.
So what is your life?
Your life cannot move an inch.
So that is called undefiled.
Just like looking at the trees in the mountains completely covered with snow. Just one tree stands up on the mountain. [A] Zen master says it is just this is it. Just this is it.
That’s the way a tree is. Whatever it is – severe winter or not severe winter – tree is just [standing] up. But is it a tree? Yes, it is a tree, but it’s not a tree, because you feel [it is] beautiful. That standing up of tree is really exquisite. Particularly beautiful – beyond [the] term. Because that just standing on the mountain is really telling you a tree, but not tree, because the rhythm of life [is] there, universal life [is] there.
That’s why if you see the tree you really feel [it is] beautiful. Particularly when you go to the wilderness [in the] northern part of Minnesota or southern part of Minnesota. It’s really beautiful because one tree is in the wilderness [but] one tree is not a tree, it’s really the wilderness as a whole. That’s why it’s beautiful.
So what do we mean, “wilderness as a whole”? What is it? Is it something you can take, or you can explain? No.
But how do you know that? You can know it through the tree which just stands up there. According to the Zen master’s term, “just this is it.” Just this is. That’s all. Just [stand].
This is the real self. This is the real self which, only when the tree is participating in himself and [learning].
That’s why that’s just a simple situation. Tree just stands up there. Nothing special. But this simple standing up straight there gives you name of tree and simultaneously beyond name of tree. That’s the rhythm of universal life there. That’s why very naturally you feel [it is] beautiful. Completely beyond your senses.
That is called undefiled. It is called undefiled.
Can you touch it? No. If you touch the so-called rhythm of wilderness, universal life – behind the tree, or inside of the tree, or around the tree – it’s not real. You cannot feel exquisite. Because it’s not something particular. You can get it. You can imagine. But directly see the tree and stand up there, and you can feel [something].
So that’s why here it says, “to be unstained doesn’t mean that you try forcefully.” Not forcefully. You cannot forcefully see that exquisiteness, that precious quality of a tree. Well, [then] just stand up there. Just be present, just participate in the life of wilderness directly, instead of imagining. Anyway, participate directly.
To participate directly is to know the name of wilderness and simultaneously a vastness of existence around wilderness. At that time it is called to participate. For that, there is no sense of attaching. “This is enlightenment.” “This is a tree.” “This is vastness of existence.” You cannot say so. Because life of tree is completely undefiled. Your life is undefiled. Whatever: enlightenment is undefiled. Delusion is undefiled. Pain, suffering… all are undefiled.
That’s why pain, […] suffering – it is not something wrong. It is not something good. Beyond good or bad, right or wrong, suffering is undefiled. Because through the suffering you can learn a lot. You can learn [about] your life and also others’ life too. And you can share your life with the people.
[You might say,] “But suffering is wrong.” No, it’s pretty good. [So do we] say suffering is good? No. I don’t think so. If you say “suffering is good,” at that time your life becomes a mess. So you have to take care of suffering. And if you are taking care of suffering in an appropriate way, well, suffering gives you lots of information and instructions, and… [it’s] pretty good.
So what is suffering? Suffering is coming from vastness of existence, so-called undefiled.
Undefiled means you participate in the suffering of your life. How? [Your] attitude towards suffering must be undefiled. Practice must be undefiled. Anyway, participate [like this]. That is very naturally you can participate in yourself, instead of from outside.
So it’s not forcefully; you cannot participate in yourself forcefully.
When you do zazen, this is the best way to participate in you as you are, but it’s not forcefully. If you forcefully participate in zazen or in you, it’s not real you, it’s not real zazen. Because… you don’t like it. [He laughs.] But beyond [whether] you like or you don’t like, if you do zazen […] simultaneously there is something, anyway. Vastness of existence. But you don’t see it. You cannot pick it up as something particular. Whatever you think – “Oh, zazen,” “I like zazen” or “I don’t like zazen” – completely beyond this. Zazen is constantly to let you be in vastness of existence. Because it is undefiled. Undefiled is constantly [developing]. Zazen is nothing but life energies constantly coming up. Your life is too, zazen is too.
That is called undefiled. And then this is called buddha, buddha-nature. Or this is called buddha-dharma, we say.
But it’s very difficult to understand buddha-dharma, buddha-nature. How can we do it? So, zazen is the best. Anyway, zazen is best. [It’s] pretty good.
That’s why “to be undefiled doesn’t mean that you try forcefully to exclude intention or discrimination, or that you establish a state of no intention.”
1:09:44
Being undefiled cannot be turned toward or discriminated at all.
If you look to the left, it’s not [the] real thing, undefiled. You just do zazen forcefully. If you force yourself, your consciousness already works. So very naturally that is called turning toward. Looking around – this way, that way. Pretty quickly – [so] quickly you don’t notice. But if you do zazen, you really can see it.
But at that time, it’s very difficult to point out, because the nature of your life or zazen [is that] everything is completely undefiled, vastness. Or in other words, it’s always developing, changing. So you cannot pick up anything. All you can do is to tune in or to be right in the rhythm, or stream of water.
It’s just like being on a jet airplane. If you slip out of the airplane, you die. [He laughs.] You have to be always constantly on the airplane. At that time, you don’t know the speed of time, or you don’t know where you are. You feel good. Or beyond you feel good or you don’t feel good, you are there. Don’t you think so? If you are there, the plane is going, the speed of time is going, and the whole universe is going with you.
But if you look around, immediately fear comes up. Don’t you think so? I alway experience [this] in the airplane. [He laughs.] Outwardly, externally, I am very calm. [Laughter.] “Never mind; anytime, I am ready to die.” I don’t think so! Inside is burning. Always looking around, this way, that way! “Oh, anytime.” And then the airplane gets in the air pocket, [noise], like this. My heart is beating! [He laughs.]
So very naturally, very quickly, your mind is moving. At that time, it’s very difficult to know something undefiled – vastness, constant development. You cannot see it, because you’re stuck there.
So, that’s why here it says, “Being undefiled cannot be turning toward or discriminated at all.” Anyway, not [to] discriminate, or not to prefer. No. With your affection, your senses, whatever, you cannot prefer.
So, this is buddha-nature, or buddha-dharma. And this koan [is] teaching us just like this.
Let’s participate in ourselves internally… [no,] not “internally”. If I say “internally,” simultaneously “externally” is there. [He laughs.] So, beyond internally or externally, participate in you, and learn you as you are, directly. Not imaginary, not turning toward, not with affective preference – anyway, constantly you do it.
Because your existence is yours. Just like the trees. But not yours! There is a huge vastness of existence, life force there, life energy there. Behind you or inside you, your body, your name. One tree, your tree, teaches you the name of the tree, but simultaneously the rhythm of the vastness of existence is there.
So that is you. That is you. So you have to participate in that one.
That’s why if you do zazen, just the sitting zazen is pretty good. But if I give something sweet to you, you immediately turn toward. Alright? You understand? I am not criticizing any other kind of zazen. But beyond this one, I want to give you… well, give you a chance to participate in real zazen, real you, beyond a sense of turning toward, or having affective preferences.
This zazen is pretty hard to continue to do, but it’s pretty good for us! Because our everyday life is really to give you lots of chances to turn toward, and to get [a feeling of] good or bad. Everyday life is just like this. Nothing gives you this kind of chance just to sit down, to spin with yourself. No. That’s why it’s pretty hard to do this. But it’s very good medicine for us.
Well, Rinzai always gives you a koan, and hits your back, and tries to [get you] to attain enlightenment, okay? And then this is fine. This is fine. But I don’t know. And then, [there are] kind of two different kinds of way to take care of human life. Either one of them – if you like, that’s fine. I am not criticizing anything. But for the long range, [a] different personality comes up. A very different personality comes up, for the long run. You cannot see a certain personality for a short period of time. No. If you take care of your life in a certain way for the long run, you can develop a certain type.
The certain type must be maybe sometimes understood by somebody. Okay? [He chuckles.] But the type of personality which is understood by somebody is not real freedom. Because still there is a bottom. But personality is completely bottomless. You have to build up your personality which is bottomless.
It’s interesting! But it is not something you can try to get forcefully. Every day, you have to do it. Every day you have to be there. Okay? But it’s pretty hard. That’s why Prajnaparamita says, “Don’t be afraid. Don’t lose heart. With an undisturbed series of your mind or thoughts, you just move.”
That’s pretty interesting. This is to dwell in dharma, dwelling in you as you are, participating in you as you are. Because it’s nothing! If you become one, there is nothing special. So it’s very calm, smooth, [your life].
That’s why people are very surprised, very confused, very afraid. “Is that alright? This is our practice? In my whole life, I have to do this?” Surprise!
[Some laughter.]
But the Buddha says to Subhuti, “Don’t be afraid. Don’t lose heart.” Because you have to participate in yourself as you are constantly, wherever you may be. Who you are, who you have to participate in: that self is vast. So in the vastness, what do you do? Do you have to turn toward a certain direction to get something? Oh, of course. But, nothing to get!
I tell you very often, your life is just like in the huge vastness of the oceans. You are thrown away right in the middle of the huge oceans. But your head is always turning toward and creating certain affective preferences, constantly. But practically, you have to participate in you as you are from moment to moment, right now, right here. Just like a full presence of water exists right now, right here. Full presence of you right in the middle of the ocean, right now, right here. You have to do it. What do you do? Just swim! Just swim.
That’s pretty hard. That’s why you are afraid, you fear, you lose heart. Nothing to get. But all you have to do is, without losing heart, without being afraid, or upset so much, without being in panic, anyway, we have to just move. With an undisturbed series of thoughts or mind.
That is called to take care of life on the basis of emptiness.
At that time, your life really works pretty well.
That’s why Joshu Zen Master says… well, he doesn’t use such a big term [as] I have explained like this. He says, “Let the donkeys cross. Let the horses cross.” That means, when you are right in the middle of kinhin, let the kinhin cross. Next moment, [in] the zazen, let the zazen cross. When the thoughts come up right in the middle of kinhin, let the thoughts cross. But we don’t let the thoughts cross. We are stuck there. We are stuck in thought.
So he uses just a simple word, pointing out everyday life. But this is a great important teaching Buddha mentions constantly in his life.