April 20, 1983 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi

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This transcript is in rough draft stage.

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Katagiri Roshi: Case 44: “Ho Shan’s Knowing How to Beat the Drum”.

The case:

Ho Shan imparted some words saying, “Cultivating study is called ‘learning.’ Cutting off study is called ‘nearness.’ Going beyond these two is to be considered real going beyond.”

A monk came forward and asked, “What is ‘real going beyond’?” Shan said, “Knowing how to beat the drum.”

Again he asked, “What is the real truth?” Shan said, “Knowing how to beat the drum.”

Again he asked, “‘Mind is Buddha’—I am not asking about this. What is not mind and not Buddha?” Shan said, “Knowing how to beat the drum.”

Again he asked, “When a transcendent man comes, how do you receive him?” Shan said, “Knowing how to beat the drum.”

( From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary)

Ho Shan (Hoshan Wuyin) was the seventh patriarch from Seigen Gyōshi (Qingyuan Xingsi); he died in 960. He was [a dharma heir] of the famous Zen Master Kyūhō Dōken (Jiufeng Daoqian). I think you can see [a simple version of] his history toward the back of this book. You can read it later.


Ho Shan imparted some words saying, “Cultivating study is called ‘learning.’ …”

Originally (in either Chinese or Japanese) it says hearing, but this translator says learning.

Cultivating study means usually we learn [by studying] something step by step, one by one. We say shugaku in Japanese. Shu means just like a baby bird trying to learn how to fly in the sky. Every day, every moment, a baby bird has to practice moving his wings. That is the meaning of shu; we say learn in English. Gaku is study. But this translator says “cultivating study.”

“Cultivating study is called ‘learning’” means that with your six consciousnesses you can hear Buddha’s teaching, and also you can hear what the human world is. The human world is really the samsaric world: nothing but the repetition of life and death, filled with suffering and pain, et cetera. In Buddhism, suffering means not only suffering but also pleasure, and pain, and neutral feeling. [That is] also suffering; we say dukkha. So whatever kind of [experience or] feeling you have – feeling good, or you don’t feel good, or you don’t feel anything, just neutral – all are called dukkha.

[Dukkha] means suffering, because it doesn’t last for long. Basically, human life always stands in the stream of impermanence. So if you realize this point, how the human world is structured, [then] “life is characterize by suffering” means how impermanent human life is – not only human beings, but also all sentient beings.

So if you really see deeply into and touch the core of the impermanence of the world, at that time you can really awaken to the truth. That is the first step to [enter] into the Buddha’s world. So we say stream-winner – one of the arhats; a “saint”. Stream-winner means you can really tune into the rhythm of the stream of the river, the stream of impermanence. That [is the] stream-winner; that is the first stage of the sage.

So through the six consciousnesses we really see deeply how human life and the human world is going. And also we can really see nirvana, which means peace and harmony, through the Buddha’s teaching. So we really see this point through our six consciousnesses, and then we can hear the teaching, and then we really believe in the Buddha’s teaching with our mind, and then next we want to put it into practice with our body. We really want to experience nirvana through the teaching – through hearing the teaching, through believing [it], through practicing [it] with our body. That is called “cultivating study.”

So that’s why [it says] “Cultivating study is called ‘hearing’.”


“… Cutting off study is called ‘nearness.’ …”

So finally you can cut off – “cut off” means be free from – human suffering. [That] means you can really tune into the rhythm of the stream of impermanence. Not throw it away; you can really tune in to the rhythm of impermanence. That is called cut off, or we say [you are a] stream-winner, if you can really live right in the middle of impermanence but you are not carried away by impermanence or suffering so much. This is called “cutting off studying is called ‘nearness’.”

Cutting off study means you can study until there is nothing to study. That is called mu-gaku: not-study. That is freedom.

So this is freedom, but it is called nearness. [It is] not exactly perfect freedom. Still, [it’s] pretty close. [It’s not perfect] because we are still stuck in the freedom. Real freedom is [that] your body and mind must be free just like water [flowing] in your everyday life. That is real freedom. You cannot pick up the freedom as an idea, because your body and mind are nothing but freedom itself. If you pick it up from your body, from your life, and see the freedom, it’s already not real freedom, it is a concept of freedom.


So [that’s why] next,

… “Going beyond these two is to be considered real going beyond.”

That means truth; real freedom.


So these are three points which people can experience through the Buddha’s teaching, mentioned by the priest named Sōjō (Sengzhao or Seng-Chao) who wrote the book Jewel Treasure Treatise. In this book he mentions that there are three types of [experience]: hearing, nearness, and truth.

(Transcriber’s Note: Katagiri Roshi says “types of people” here, but he probably doesn’t mean fixed types of people, so I have used “types of experience.”)

Shugaku: that is learning, hearing. [In] the first step we really get into the Buddha’s teaching – being free from human samsara – through our six consciousnesses – hearing – and then we can learn something. And then, every day we have to learn, and then practice it again and again. Finally, you can really tune the dial in, you can really hit the underground stream, and then you get the water springing up through the pipe. That is nearness. And the third type of [people’s experience] is truth. Truth is perfect freedom.

[Jewel Treasure Treatise] says it just like this case: Cultivating study is called “learning.” Cutting off study is called “nearness.” Going beyond these two is to be considered as the truth.


So, Ho Shan extolled this point, the three types of [people’s experience], to the assembly. Immediately,

A monk came forward and asked, “What is ‘real going beyond’?”

That means, what is the truth? What is the truth, being free from the first type or second type?

The first type is always using your six consciousnesses, listening to the Buddha’s teaching, listening to the sound of the human world. And then the second type of [experience] is really to be free from this human samsaric suffering, and also acquiring the Buddha’s teaching. That is called cutting off, freedom. So very naturally you can step [into] freedom. But it is not good enough, because you still are stuck in freedom, happiness. You’re so proud of yourself at that time. That’s why [there is] the final goal which Buddhism emphasizes constantly, which is to be free from, to go beyond the first two types of [experience].

Well, not only Buddha’s teaching, but whatever you do, you have to go through this process.

When I was a monk, my teacher said, “You should learn calligraphy,” because my teacher was a pretty good calligrapher. But he didn’t say, “I will teach you how to write calligraphy.” So I watched his way of writing carefully every day, because he wrote calligraphy almost every day. So [I stayed] by him and watched his calligraphy, and also learned how to carry his brush. And then every day I took a brush and practiced. And also I had a particular textbook written by a famous calligrapher. So, listening to his rhythm, and also reading, and understanding, with my whole six consciousnesses – anyway, every day I practiced.

So he said, “You should learn calligraphy under the guidance of a teacher first.” […] The guidance of a teacher and guidance of a book; [this is a] good example. This is the first stage.

And then the teacher says, “If you master this textbook through and through, or if you master a certain type of calligraphy shown by a certain teacher – next, you should learn a completely different type of calligraphy.” At that time, you can really be free from the certain type of calligraphy which you have learned under a certain teacher, and then you can learn. How can you be free from [the first way you learned] calligraphy? The teacher says you should break the wall [of what] you have learned. Because if you learn something, you are really stuck in there. [You think,] “I am a great calligrapher” – you have to break [that]. How to break it? You should learn a completely different type of calligraphy.

So anyway, I studied, and then he said, “If you study a completely different type of calligraphy, then next, you should return once more to the beginning. And then at that time you can first type of calligraphy which you have learned is very naturally coming up, just like spring water.”

So this is the truth – real going beyond. This is the final goal.

So first, you always have to hear, with your consciousnesses. And then next, you should be free from it. How [to be free from it]? [In the example of] calligraphy, you should learn a completely different type of calligraphy, and then you can break the first wall which you have acquired. And then the first one comes up very naturally – without being stuck in the first type of calligraphy or the second type of calligraphy. You can go beyond.

This is always a way of teaching in Japan, whatever you learn. Calligraphy, and also architecture, carpentry, or storytelling – whatever you do, the teacher always gives like this. This is a very interesting way of education. Because otherwise, you cannot help people. So you must be really free from the first wall and second wall you have acquired.


That’s why, “A monk came forward and asked, “What is ‘real going beyond’?”” In other words, what is the real calligraphy which is [coming] up very naturally? As natural as you can – without being carried away by the first type of calligraphy or second type of calligraphy. Anyway, how? What is this? How can we learn [this]? So,

Ho Shan said, “Knowing how to beat the drum.”

This is a pretty interesting answer.

If you want to really learn the third stage, you always say, “Let’s go through the first and second stage, and then you can go beyond the first and second stage.” This is also pretty good. But he doesn’t say that. Immediately he says, “I know how to beat the drum.”

That means everyday life.

If you want to be a storyteller in Japan under the guidance of a teacher, and if you ask the teacher, “How do we become a great storyteller just like you?” Probably he would tell you: “Please get up in the morning when the time comes to get up, and clean the house, and make breakfast, and serve the teacher, and have breakfast. After breakfast, wash your bowl.”

We don’t understand this point, because that’s just like usual life. How can we learn to be a master storyteller through this daily life? It’s pretty hard.

But this is a pretty good point, because human beings are really greedy. If you become greedy, it’s pretty hard to learn something real. You can learn something conceptual, or philosophical, or psychological, but it’s very difficult to learn something real, penetrating your life, penetrating others’ lives, and share your life with people, helping. [If you’re greedy, that’s] pretty hard.

So that’s why if you want to learn to be a master storyteller, why don’t you take care of the tape recorder, with your compassion? Take care of the tape recorder, as well as your life.

This is the first step. That’s why he says, “I know how to beat the drum.”

Because your life is really related, interconnected, with all sentient beings. [So you can] go to school and learn something step by step, but it doesn’t work in your daily life. You can learn something intellectually so your head becomes big, but your life doesn’t work. Mastering something is not to stuff knowledge into your head. To master something is to share your life with the people through everyday life.

But it is a very slow-going story. [He laughs slightly.] People cannot stand up, people cannot be patient, because they really want to rush to the goal and get the richness, happiness, and success, et cetera. So, very greedy.


So this answer – “I know how to beat the drum” – probably made this monk disappointed.

Again he asked, “What is the real truth?”

That is almost the same question as the first question. The first question asks, “What is real going beyond?” And the second question is, “What is the real truth?” Almost a double question. But anyway, he didn’t understand, so that’s why he asked again, “What is the truth?”

Shan said the same thing:

“Knowing how to beat the drum.”

(Transcriber’s Note: Katagiri Roshi says here, “I know how to beat the drum.”)

So this is the truth.


Again he asked, “‘Mind is Buddha’—I am not asking about this. What is not mind and not Buddha?”

In those days, around the eighth century, when Baso Zen Master (Mazu Daoyi) lived, Baso Zen Master emphasized his teaching based on “Mind is buddha; buddha is mind.” [In Japanese] we say, sokushin zebutsu. Soko means “identity.” Shin means “mind.” Ze means “this” or “the.” Butsu means buddha. So buddha is exactly identical with mind. Just like in the Heart Sutra, we say “form is emptiness, emptiness is form”; we use is. But anyway, mind is Buddha. So this was a big koan in those days, and in every monastery, monks really researched this.

One day a monk asked Baso Zen Master, “Why do you teach ‘mind is buddha’?” And Baso Zen Master said, “[To stop] a baby from crying.”

That means, if buddha is separate from your mind, your life – at that time, no matter how long you try to get it, you never get it, because it’s already something separate from you. Something separate from you, you can never get. You can always get something within you. [If it’s within you,] that’s why you can get it.

For instance, you say, “I can get the microphone,” even though the microphone is separate from you. And then you say, “I can get the microphone [that is] separate from me.” But it’s not true. [You already have] the microphone before you get it, because if you see the microphone, the microphone is immediately reflected in your mirror, [that is,] in your sense organs. Sense organs simultaneously reflect [the object]; and then the function of consciousness joins [the] sense organs and sense objects. And then the sixth consciousness thinks and judges: “Oh, this is the microphone.” And then we say, “Oh, yes, this is the microphone.” So how do you understand the microphone? You already have a microphone in you.

So you can get the microphone. You get this microphone, but this microphone is not the real microphone, because you get the microphone reflected in your mirror. That’s why, sooner or later, it’s separate from you. It doesn’t stay with you for long. And then the next moment, you want to keep it, because you already have it. That microphone you have is already an image of the microphone. The real microphone […] doesn’t care. Even though it’s gone from you, microphone is microphone.

So always we have [it]. Something separate from you cannot be acquired by you. This is the Buddhist teaching, anyway. That’s why Baso Zen Master says [that] if buddha or real spiritual life is something separate from you, at that time, no matter how long you try to get it, you never get it; that’s why you become just like a baby, crying constantly. You want to get it, you want to get it!

And then Baso Zen Master really expresses his compassion like a mother: [he says,] “I want to stop the baby’s crying.” How does he stop the baby crying? [He says] “mind is buddha” is with you; so your mind is buddha, simultaneously. And then, maybe you can stop the baby crying.

And then the monk asked, “How is it when you have stopped the baby from crying?” In other words, after stopping the baby from crying, what is this? What is your teaching?

And then Baso says, “Not mind, not buddha.”

Because if Baso Zen Master says “your mind is buddha,” [then] you are really stuck in the mind, or you are stuck in the buddha. Where is the buddha? In my mind? Where is my mind? Inside or outside? Where is my buddha? So you are looking for [it], and then if you cannot find it, you start to cry again!

So if you can stop a baby crying, then after that, what is your teaching? That teaching is “not mind, not buddha.” Buddha is not something you try to find inside or outside or somewhere. Mind also is not something you can find inside or outside. Mind or buddha are that which manifest under certain conditioned elements. When the time is ripe, conditions arranged, it comes up.

So when you do gassho exactly in peace and harmony, this is the mind. […] That peaceful mind is called buddha. So next moment you say, “What’s that? What is that peaceful mind?” Next moment, you are not peaceful; at that time it’s not buddha. It’s not-peaceful mind.

So finally you say, “Keep your mouth shut; do gassho in peace and harmony, right now, right here, according to the buddhas’ and ancestors’ suggestions, in front of the Buddha.” And then at that time, buddha appears, peaceful mind appears.

So only when time is ripe, conditions arranged, always mind is there, buddha is there. But when you think “where is the mind,” mind is really [evasive], vast. Buddha is also vast. So you don’t know. So, “no mind.” Kind of no mind – but [is it really] no mind? Yes [there] is [mind]: when the time is ripe, conditions arranged, mind comes up! So mind is here. But is mind always with me? No: no mind. Not-mind. Next moment, “not mind, not buddha.”


And then the monk still didn’t understand, so the monk asked Baso Zen Master, “[I’m] not talking about teaching or philosophy: ‘Mind is buddha, or buddha is mind, or not-mind, or not-buddha.’”

In other words, from the first stage, “mind is buddha” means go to school and do your best, and then you can learn something. And then if you do it, school is you; if you do it, philosophy is with you.

[Tape change.]

… And then at that time, the second stage is… well, if you go to school, how much knowledge does school give you? After graduation from the university, how much knowledge did you get which is useful when you share your life with people? You don’t know. The knowledge you have accumulated, that you have learned from school, is what? Nothing. You have to become a beginner when you work with people. [He chuckles.] Completely. So you have to start to learn something new.

So very naturally that is the second stage. School is you, you are school. Anyway, go to school. And then, if you finish school, how much did you learn? Where is the knowledge? You cannot [be] stuck in your title of Ph.D., or you cannot be stuck in your Batchelor’s Degree or Master’s Degree. Share your life with people. How? No knowledge, no school, no you: just jump into [it] and share.

That is the first [and second] stage, okay? Remember this.

And then the monk asked, “How should I deal with the person [who is] going beyond first and second?” He wanted to know the person who mastered completely the teaching of “the mind is buddha,” and also “not mind, not Buddha.” Free from the first and second. He’s not talking about the teaching; he wants to know the reality [there]. When he sees somebody who is completely free from first and second, how can he deal with this kind of person?

Baso Zen Master says, “not anything.” [He chuckles.]

“Not anything” means you have to just see him. How do you see him? When you have to do gassho, just do gassho, and then that is [that] you can see him. Why don’t you beat the drum, in the proper way? That’s enough.


Anyway, that means in the first stage you can learn, [in the] second stage you can be free from, and then [in the] third stage, you don’t know what it is, because we deny the first stage and second stage, so what is the real truth?

So finally you say, “Never mind; forget it.” You know? Why not do as I like? Because “mind is buddha,” but “not-mind, not-buddha” – so how can I live? Why not do as I like? Completely denying no mind and no buddha, and also completely denying mind and buddha – what’s left? What is there?

Completely something is left: only the table is left, [tap,] as a material thing. This karmic body is left. Instinct is left. Your knowledge, your body is left. Because the spiritual aspect of your life is completely denied. Mind, or buddha, or not mind and not buddha? If so, how do we live? Nothing there. You can really attach to nothing, so, if there is nothing to attach to, why don’t you live as you like?

That is a point most Zen students misunderstand: “Zen always lets you be free, so do as you like.” But [be] a little bit careful. Because in Buddhism, negation implies a state of freedom of human life – so your body and your mind must be free in every aspect of your life. If so, if you do as you like according to your desires, et cetera, at that time you are not free. Very naturally you are stuck in something.

Very naturally this freedom, real freedom, must be actualized in everyday life, in every aspect of your life. Getting up in the morning, and having breakfast: in the breakfast, freedom must be manifested there. When you do gassho, freedom must be actualized in the realm of gassho. That is freedom.

So [you are] using your consciousness, and then, you shouldn’t be stuck in your consciousness, because this is freedom. The basic nature of your life is always using your consciousness, but you cannot stay with the consciousness which you have used, because this is the real state of your human existence. So go there, and then next, you become completely freedom. So next moment, you can go anyplace. If you like, you can stay; if you don’t like, you can go anyplace.

[This means] in terms of the truth, in terms of change or impermanence, you can use consciousness but you cannot stay with it. So just use consciousness, then, let it go.

But on the other hand, in terms of human consciousness, there is [some] stinkiness there. So you must be a little bit careful. So use consciousness and then participate in the microphone, but at that time, in terms of human consciousness, you shouldn’t create some gap between the microphone and you – in other words, “double mind”. You cannot create a gap; you cannot create a shadow of your mind. You should deal with the microphone as well as your life: exactly one. That is called sincerity; true heart.

True heart is really human warmness, compassion. True heart is really you can be intimate with the life of the microphone. That means not leaving a shadow of your consciousness.

So use your consciousness, jump into your object, but you should deal with the microphone with sincerity, true heart.

That’s why you cannot say, “Hey, let’s use this microphone as I like.” No, you cannot do it. That’s why Baso Zen Master says, “not anything.”

How can I deal with the microphone, which is free from the first and second stage? Because this is enlightened being. If so, you cannot be stuck in the microphone as a material [entity]. Or [also], you cannot be stuck in the microphone as a spiritual entity. You must be free from it – because you have to deal with it. So you should use your spiritual thing, and nevertheless, in terms of Buddha’s world, in terms of truth, you must be clear. So, nothing to leave, no trace of your [conscious] perception. And next, in terms of human desires, you should deal with the microphone with sincerity, true heart. No shadow of your consciousness. That’s why Baso Zen Master says, “Not anything.”

How can we deal with the person who is free from anything – first stage, second stage? At that time, how can we deal with? Don’t be stuck in a “thing” called “this guy” or “that guy” – or “this guy who has attained enlightenment,” or “this guy who has not attained enlightenment.” Don’t be stuck in [it]. Anyway, deal with [it]. How can we deal [with it]?

When you have to beat the drum, you have to beat the drum – with sincerity, true heart. Using your consciousness.


So that’s why the monk said, “‘Mind is buddha’—I am not asking about this.” Because this monk understands “mind is buddha.” So [he asks,] “What is not mind and not buddha?”

And then Shan [again] said,

“Knowing how to beat the drum.”

If you see the person who is free from “not mind, not Buddha” – at that time, who is he? He is just a usual guy.

A usual guy… but he’s not a usual guy. He’s still an unusual guy. But apparently, he is a usual guy.

So how do we know he is not a usual guy? That means, when he has to beat the drum, just beat the drum. The difference is [one of] degree: how strong a determination you have, how much intention you have. In other words, how strongly you hit the drum with sincerity, with a true heart. How do you use your sincerity, how do you use your true heart, when you beat the drum? That’s all.


Through the hearing the sound of the drum, we can understand how much your practice is progressed.

In Eiheiji monastery, we hit the gong. Each time, we bow: full bows. One hit of the gong, and bow. But every time, the sound depends on the individual personality. If you’re a really rough guy, even though you hit the bell softly, still the sound is very rough. Even though the sound is very soft, still there is a kind of an absence of mind, a scattering of your mind.

So it’s very interesting practice for us; that’s why every time, we bow. Because one hit of the gong, and then bow – at that time, your body and your mind [are] exactly peaceful and harmonious, tuning into the rhythm of the gong’s life. And then next moment, you can really face directly the life of the gong, right in front of you. And then hold, then [you start anew] to hit the gong, with your wholeheartedness.

One day the Zen Master [heard] the monk who hit the gong in the morning, and he asked the attendant who hit the gong. So [the attendant] said the monk’s name. And then the Zen Master said, “Ah, I understand.” He understands the sound of the gong this morning, because [he knows] who hit it. He knows his practice, the quality of his life.


So through the sound of the gong, you really understand how much your practice is progressed. And also, this freedom is not something you can get immediately, or you can get by practicing for one year, or two years. No. Life after life, you have to practice.

Most of you met Thich Nhat Hanh. Well, that’s peace. Everyone feels exactly peace from him. Whoever you are; everyone felt in that way. Real peaceful guy. But that peace is not something you can get by practicing for a couple of years. No.

And also, one more practice is, you should continue to practice not [in a] showy [way]. Very quiet practice.

He talked about mindfulness: mindfulness is not a showy practice. When you walk on the street, just walk on the street, with your breath, with your mind, with your road, with your foot. And then finally, you can become one with the universe, with the rhythm of life. But this practice is not showy; you cannot show it to people. That’s why when you go to the bathroom, wash your face, and gassho to the water basin. This practice is very calm practice, but it’s really powerful. If you practice day by day like this, very naturally, freedom really blooms, the flower of freedom blooms. Just like Thich Nhat Hanh.

But if you are really greedy in spiritual life, you cannot continue to practice like this.

Even though you practice spiritual life, very naturally you become greedy. If you become greedy, you want to follow the teaching tracks, seminars, and training periods. If you want to be a good student, you should attend the training period, you should take this class or that class; if you don’t, you are not a good student. That is really greedy. You cannot be a really peaceful person, or you cannot really share your life with all sentient beings.

How much does Thich Nhat Hanh teach people, [how much does he share,] how much does he influence all sentient beings [with his life]? He doesn’t say anything; but his influence is really enormous, vast. Wherever he may go: just standing. That’s really great; helpful, for everyone. Don’t you think so? Don’t you feel in that way? You cannot forget him. Always in everybody’s heart, Thich Nhat Hanh is there.

That freedom, or peace, or harmony, is not something you can get immediately, or for a couple of years’ practice. No; you cannot do it. So that’s why bodhisattvas walk in the mist, from life after life. Forever, anyway.

So very naturally […] that is just like a bodhisattva, who is free from the concept of “not mind, not Buddha.” What is it? He knows how to beat the drum.

That is Thich Nhat Hanh. He knows how to walk on the street, with all sentient beings.

We always say, “let’s walk on the street with all sentient beings,” [but] we don’t walk in that way. We always walk alone. Walking alone is a little bit bitter. But most people walk on the street with anger, hatred; [agonies]. But whatever happens in your life, when you walk on the street, let’s walk on the street with all sentient beings. How can you practice this?

This is not a teaching. This is something you have to do, every day.

During this training [period] I said, when you get up in the morning, let’s chant the verse, “I am getting up in the morning now, with all sentient beings,” and then realize everything without throwing away anything at all. Anyway get up in the morning, and then sit down on your bed, do a gassho, and chant a short verse. You don’t think this is an important practice, but this is a really big, great practice for us. If you can do it every day, life after life, […] this is really [being a] bodhisattva.


So, a bodhisattva knows how to beat the drum. A bodhisattva knows how to get up in the morning with all sentient beings. A bodhisattva knows how to wash his face with all sentient beings.

Again he asked, “When a transcendent man comes, how do you receive him?” Shan said, “Knowing how to beat the drum.”

This is really true. How do we know we are bodhisattvas? We should know how to wash our face. How to get up in the morning. How to hit the bell. You believe this is a small little practice, but I don’t think this is small, a trifle. It is a huge practice.

Well, we should contemplate this koan again and again, in our whole life. That’s why everyday life and daily routine is very important for us.

[In the monastery,] my teacher taught me a very simple teaching: when the people get up in the morning, please get up in the morning. When the people have breakfast, please have breakfast together. And then after that, if you don’t feel good, [you can] go to sleep. These are very simple suggestions, but it’s really important practice for us. Because we missed this important practice. That’s why in a Zen monastery, everyday it is very important for us. Walking, hitting the drum, and chanting, reading a book – we have to do it with our sincerity, true heart.

1:06:30 end of recording

This talk was transcribed by Kikan Michael Howard. Audio recordings of Katagiri Roshi are being used with permission of Minnesota Zen Meditation Center.

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