Blue Cliff Record Case 40: Nan Ch’uan’s It’s Like a Dream, Talk 1
January 26, 1983 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Summary
Cease and desist. Why does Nan Ch’uan say we may see a flower as a kind of dream? Why do we need a push from the top of a one hundred foot pole? Also: is Buddhist community like army training?
Transcript
(Archive Issue: Case 40 Talks 1 and 2 are transposed in the online archive. The link here is to the audio for “Lecture 2”, which is actually Lecture 1.)
Listen to this talk on mnzencenter.org
0:00
Katagiri Roshi: Case 40: “Nan Ch’uan’s It’s Like a Dream”.
The Pointer:
Cease and desist; then an iron tree blooms with flowers. Is there anyone? Is there? A clever lad loses his profits; even though he is free in seven ways up and down and eight ways across, he cannot avoid having another pierce his nostrils. But tell me, where is his error? To test, I quote this to see.
(From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary.)
1:01
Cease and desist; then an iron tree blooms with flowers.
I very often emphasize that “cease and desist” is not your business. [If] you try to cease, you try to desist, [then] you never cease, you never desist. Because the more you try to cease, the more you realize that there is always something moving. So you never stop anything.
(Transcriber’s Note: Where Katagiri Roshi says “nothing for your business” below, I have substituted “nothing that is your business” in a couple cases, but mostly left the phrase as-is.)
So an import point is, [it is] only when there is absolutely nothing that is your business. All you have to do is, when you sit down, you just be one with the sitting. At that time that is called “to cease all affairs, all involvements.” That is in Fukanzazengi. If you read Fukanzazengi carefully, Dogen Zenji mentions making arrangement of circumstances: the room, and your body, clothes, your mind. Mainly the three adjustments: breathing, mind, and body; and also we have to take care of the circumstances.
Arranging circumstances is very complicated. You can make arrangement of circumstances, but right in the middle of zazen, still there are complicated circumstances always occurring from moment to moment. Visualizations inside of your head; this is one kind of circumstance. If you are completely tossed away by them, you cannot cease involvements. If you are involved in this visualization inside, you never cease, you never desist. The point is that “constantly making arrangement” means you have to put it aside, and all you have to do is just have one-pointedness on zazen, breathing. That’s all you have to do. And then very naturally, that is called cease all involvements. And then at that time it is called all worldly affairs rest peacefully. The noise of cars, birds, and winter, are completely resting in this realm. That is called cease and desist.
So if you try to cease, you never cease; only [when] there is nothing for your business. If you try to, or you try not to, whatever you do, it’s your business. At that time it’s very difficult to cease. So if you realize there is completely nothing for your business, at that time you can really cease. That is called shikantaza. I think you should really experience this through shikantaza. Otherwise, no matter how long I [explain it], it doesn’t make sense.
So, “cease and desist; then an iron tree blooms with flowers.” You don’t believe just sitting like this, without having your own business. And then you say, “And then what? Is it useful?” Or, “Is it not useful?” You always try to create your business. But just sitting is kind of nothing, no business. But [it’s] a business! The iron tree really blooms.
I mention that Zen practice is [to] completely cut down your egoistic constructed way of life. Most people are really afraid of doing that, because people are afraid of losing the self, but I don’t think that is the right understanding. It’s pretty hard, but if you cannot do it, [then] in your everyday life there is always egoistic sense. Even [in] zazen, you have to do real zazen, throwing away your egoistic constructed way of life. At that time intellectually you are afraid of losing yourself, but actually [you don’t], the real self is blooming. The real self blooms from completely nothing.
That’s why here it says, then an iron tree blooms with flowers. Nothing means just like an iron tree. It’s impossible to bloom flowers from nothing, but it really blooms from there.
8:30
Is there anyone? Is there?
Who blooms? Who blooms the flower of your real self? For what? For what do you have to bloom the real flower of your life force? Is there anyone you can discuss? [There is] nothing, exactly nothing. But it’s blooming.
A clever lad loses his profits; …
Sometimes a clever lad has a similar act with an enlightened person, because if you do zazen constantly like this, sooner or later you really feel what the real self is, and what emptiness is, what oneness is. At that time most people become very clever and smart, and then they’re really proud of themselves. That is what the “clever lad” means. So clever lad has sometimes a similar act with an enlightened person, just for appearance’s sake. But, he fails to find a buyer for it. Nothing to buy! He loses completely [the spirit], because the moment when you get it in your hand, the next moment it’s not something you have held in your hand, so you don’t know where it is. Where is the enlightenment? Where is the real self which you have experienced? What is it?
That’s why here it says, “A clever lad loses his profits.” Everyone becomes very smart and clever. If you do something, you can have an experience, and then an experience of unique proof [of] what you have done, and then you believe that is of benefit, profit. But unfortunately, your body and mind, including your experience, all are completely impermanent. So you don’t know what happens next moment.
… even though he is free in seven ways up and down and eight ways across, he cannot avoid having another pierce his nostrils.
“In seven ways up and down and eight ways across” is a typical Zen term, that is kind of like “to ones heart’s content.” So, “even though he is free to his heart’s content.” He acts freely wherever he may go. He seems to be free. But, “he cannot avoid having another pierce his nostrils.” That means just like a cow having the ring piercing his nostrils, tied up with a rope. You cannot move an inch that way. Even a little boy can handle those big cows, so-called enlightened cows. If you really take so much pride in yourself through the experience, well, it’s alright, but that is exactly like a kind of cow, piercing his nostrils. So this is not completely free.
That’s why in Zen practice we always have two practices we have to do. [First,] accept completely that you are Buddha, through and through. In your daily living, you have to accept that you are Buddha. In order to do this, you cannot import your feeling into real Buddha Nature; so that is called egolessness. If you accept you as a Buddha, very naturally you can practice egolessness. And then next, if you see the Buddha Nature, very naturally you want to hang on to it, that’s why next you have to let it go. Constantly let it go.
So, nothing for your business. Constantly accept your total existence, and do something as a Buddha. And then next, whatever experiences you have, give them back to emptiness. That is to let it go.
But tell me, where is his error? To test, I quote this to see.
15:45
The Case:
As the officer Lu Hsuan was talking with Nan Ch’uan, he said, “Master of the Teachings Chao said, ‘Heaven, earth, and I have the same root; myriad things and I are one body.’ This is quite marvelous.”
Nan Ch’uan pointed to a flower in the garden. He called to the officer and said, “People these days see this flower as a dream.”
(From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary.)
About officer Lu Hsuan, see the commentary, page 293:
The officer Lu Hsuan studied for a long time with Nan Ch’uan. He always kept his mind on essential nature, and he immersed himself in the Discourses of Chao.
The English translation of the Discourses of Chao is Chao Lun: The Treatises of Seng-chao. You can see, this is a library book.
One day as they sat, he happened to bring up these two lines, considering them remarkable. He questioned, “Master of the Teachings Chao said, ‘Heaven, earth, and I have the same root; myriad things and I are one body.’ This is quite marvelous.” Master of the Teachings Seng Chao was an eminent monk of Chin times (latter 4th–early 5th centuries A.D.); he was together with Tao Sheng, Tao Jung, and Seng Jui in the school of Kumarajiva. They were called the Four Sages.
Kumarajiva lived from 350 to 409 (CE). It is said that he had four famous philosophical and religious sages [as disciples]: that is Tao Sheng, Tao Jung, Seng Jui, and also Seng Chao, who wrote this treatise. Kumarajiva was greatest translator of Buddhist scriptures.
When (Seng Chao) was young, he enjoyed reading Chuang Tzu and Lao Tzu. Later, as he was copying the old translation of the Vimalakirti Scripture, he had an enlightenment. Then he knew that Chuang and Lao still were not really thoroughgoing. Therefore he compiled all the scriptures and composed four discourses.
So he really had enlightenment when he studied Vimalakirti Sutra, and then he became a Buddhist monk. And then he wrote this book, and composed four discourses. Chapter One is on Time. Chapter Two is on Śūnyatā (emptiness). Chapter Three is on “Prajna not cognizant,” or prajnaparamita which is not cognized. Chapter Four is “Nirvana is unnameable”. This is a very interesting book. [Shitou] Zen Master, who composed the Sandokai (Harmony of Difference and Sameness), attained enlightenment by studying this Chao Lun. So he uses lots of words or statements from Chuang Tzu and Lao Tzu, but I don’t think he emphasizes the teachings of Chuang Tzu or Lao Tzu; he is just using the terms, but emphasizing the real meaning of emptiness, the real meaning of suchness, the as-it-is-ness of existence. So it’s a pretty interesting book.
So that’s why here it says the officer Lu Hsuan practiced for many years under the guidance of Nan Ch’uan, [and] he said, “Master of the Teachings Chao said, ‘Heaven, earth, and I have the same root; myriad things and I are one body.’ This is quite marvelous.” I think if you study Buddhism, very naturally you can see this teaching very often. And even though Buddhist scripture doesn’t use the same actual statement, still the teaching is exactly the same as this. Oneness. Equality. The same and one.
23:12
This is not a teaching, it is not a matter of philosophical discussion. For instance, to be alive from day to day, from moment to moment, is not a matter of discussion. If you discuss about being alive from moment to moment, at that time you to talk about being alive, very naturally somebody starts to talk about not being alive. Very naturally there are two ideas coming up: being alive or not being alive. So that is discussion always coming up; endlessly you have to go on like this. It is just conceptualized. It is called be alive, but it’s not be alive. Be alive is before you conceptualize this, you have to be alive. Before you understand your heart, your heart must be alive. What does it mean that your heart is alive? If you pay attention to the presence of your heart, and then [you are] thinking about your heart, it is not real aliveness, because you already think [about it], pick up your heart from your body and look at the heart. It’s really conceptualized. The real aliveness of your heart is oneness, with the life of your nose, and your body, your bellybutton, and your hands, and winter, anyway. That oneness is completely beyond your cognition. [It is] before you cognize. Anyway, it’s alive. That aliveness is oneness with your body, with your winter, with your sleep. The heart is beating. This is real aliveness.
Anyway, this officer Lu Hsuan really understands this oneness. But he said, “This is quite marvelous.” [So] maybe this is a little point which Zen Master Nan Ch’uan doesn’t like. That’s why Nan Ch’uan pointed to a flower in the garden and he called to the officer and said, “People these days see this flower as a dream.” That means the moment when he said “this is quite marvelous,” [it becomes conceptualized]. “This is quite marvelous”, or “this is real true,” or “this is not true,” or “this is marvelous,” or “this is not marvelous”: if you say so, the same-and-oneness becomes conceptualized. So immediately Nan Ch’uan pointed to a flower in the garden and he called to the officer and said, “People these days see this flower as a dream.”
If it’s a dream, you don’t know what it is. There is a koan about the function of Avalokiteshvara (Blue Cliff Record Case 89); it says, [it is like] groping for the pillow at night. That means already pillow is here, and your hand is here, and your room is here, but in darkness. In darkness, you just grope for the pillow at night. That means everything is very clear: Katagiris, and tables, and pillows, and darkness, and rooms, and your hand is moving. But you never touch it; just functioning, that’s all. That is a kind of dream. You don’t know. But you know where it is. Where is the pillow? In this room; you know that. But you never touch it. So that’s why it’s very difficult to know what same-and-oneness is. It’s kind of a dream. Even though you say it’s marvelous, what is that? You don’t know what it is, you cannot explain it.
I tell you often, when your stomach is perfectly functioning, you never have a chance to pay attention to it. You know? So if the function of your body is exactly [existing] as the-same-and-one, at that time is there anyone who knows? Is there anyone? Is there anything? No; because you don’t pay attention. Your stomach and you are perfect. But the moment when you know the location of your stomach, something happens. Even though your stomach is fine, if you pay attention to the location of your stomach, that is already you kind of pick up your stomach from your body, from the same-and-oneness of the function, and then look at your stomach. But the function of the real stomach is exactly in the-same-and-one, before you are conscious of it. That’s why you never know. But it’s working! It’s really working.
So it’s a kind of dream. You don’t know what it is. So all you have to do is just keep your stomach, keep your body just like that, you know? That’s all you have to do. If you have trouble, fix your stomach until it becomes the-same-and-one with your body. You have to fix that.
That’s why Nan Ch’uan pointed to a flower in the garden, he called to the officer and said, “People these days see this flower as a dream.”
32:14
Look at the commentary on page 294, fourth paragraph:
Lu Hsuan’s questioning in this manner was indeed quite exceptional, but he did not go beyond the meaning of the Teachings. If you say that the meaning of the Teachings is the ultimate paradigm, then why did the World Honored One also raise the flower? What did the Patriarchal Teacher come from the West for?
This is very important. “Lu Hsuan’s questioning in this manner was indeed quite exceptional, but he did not go beyond the meaning of the Teachings.” He understands the teachings. Buddhism is [not] just that you have to understand, and the individual experience of the teaching. Why is it that Buddha Shakyamuni has to raise the uḍumbara flower and Mahākāśyapa smiling to it? Why did Bodhidharma have to go to China to teach?
[Tape change.]
Why did that bodhisattva suffer in everyday life even though they understand Buddha’s teaching and they can awaken others? Why do they have to suffer from their lives? In order to help all sentient beings. It is not a matter of just understanding the teachings. Because the bodhisattva’s life must be one: their behavior, their everyday life from moment to moment, must be exactly tuning into the rhythm of the-same-and-oneness of existence, exactly like the relationship between you and your stomach. What is this? Is this a kind of teaching? No, no teaching. The stomach has to function from moment to moment, tuning into the rhythm of your body; the rhythm of your body, rhythm of winter, rhythm of the universe. Whatever we feel, it has to do this.
So, what is this? This is not understanding of the teaching. That’s why here it says, “He did not go beyond the meaning of the Teachings. If you say that the meaning of the Teachings is the ultimate paradigm, then why did the World Honored One also raise the flower? What did the Patriarchal Teacher come from the West for?” Why?
36:52
Nan Ch’uan’s way of answering used the grip of a patchrobed monk to pull out the painful spot for the other, …
“Pulling out the painful spot for others” means nothing that is your business. That is a really painful spot for us, because we really want to pull out something, get something. But constantly Buddhas and Ancestors emphasize emptiness; that means really a painful spot for us, because [there is] nothing to get. But from nothing, your body, your stomach, really function pretty well. That is called the-same-and-oneness. In terms of the functioning of the-same-and-oneness, it is called emptiness.
So Nan Ch’uan’s pointing out the flower is a kind of dream, that means nothing for your business. Flower just blooms, whatever you feel. Tiny flowers bloom in the heart of the mountain, even though no one pays attention to them.
… and broke up his nest; …
“Broke up his nest” means really we don’t know this nest. It’s very difficult to realize the nest, how hard it is, how delicate it is. We don’t know. But consciously or unconsciously, we really rest in our nest. That is called ignorance sometimes; it is called ego-constructed way of life. Ignorance is not the same [kind of ignorance] we usually think; ignorance is some intellectual understanding through everyday life. When ignorance is actualized in your daily living, it appears as craving and grasping. And then your existence is conditioned by those two, craving and grasping; that is the really complete aspect of ignorance. And then through this complete aspect of human existence based on craving and grasping, you can see something strong, rooted, in your life. Very strong. You don’t know where it comes from, but it’s there. You don’t know how it works; we don’t know, but it’s really there. And then, we give it a name: ignorance. So ignorance is not a kind of idea of the simple nature of human beings, because it is something you can really see through everyday life. It’s coming from your heart. Anyway, that is a nest.
… he pointed at a flower in the garden and called to the officer, saying, “People these days see this flower as though it were a dream.” This is like leading the man to the edge of a ten thousand fathom cliff and giving him a push, causing his life to be cut off.
I don’t think this officer Lu Hsuan accepted Nan Ch’uan’s compassion like this; he didn’t understand. But exactly this is Nan Ch’uan’s very compassionate, simple answer: pointing at the flower, and saying, “People these days see this flower as though it were a dream.” That means really you are driven into a corner, where you cannot move an inch. [Leading you to] the cliff, not the flat even ground… and push. That is pretty hard, because usually if you understand something of Buddhism, you really [want to] stay with it, you really want to keep it, you really want to hang on. Particularly if you experience something, you really want to keep it. But that is not real understanding of Buddhism. So you have to get through, [get] down from that situation. For this, Nan Ch’uan had to awaken him [to] where he was. He was just at the level of intellectual understanding. So he put him down, and put him on the top of the cliff, and pushed him. That is pretty hard for us, because if you attain enlightenment, immediately there is nothing. What’s wrong with it? […] [Tape skip.] If you are told by the teacher or by Buddhist teaching that everything is emptiness, what do you mean by this? Can you feel happy? Can you feel pensive? Whatever you feel, it doesn’t hit the mark, because it is the truth.
45:35
If you were pushed over on level ground, even till Maitreya Buddha was born in the world, you still would simply be unable to accomplish the cutting off of life.
It’s pretty hard. That’s why we have to take one step forward not on the level ground, but you have to take one step forward from the top of the hundred foot high pole. That is pretty hard. People don’t like this, because people always want to keep [their] egoistic constructed way of life. And then they experience something. That is just taking one step on the level ground. If so, it’s not necessary to practice religions. Religions are very strict… not strict, you [don’t have to] risk your life. In a sense you have to risk your life, but before you risk your life, there are lots of things that you have to do, anyway. If you constantly keep your egoistic sense, you never have a chance to know the real meaning of religion. That’s why we have to take one step forward from the top of the hundred foot high pole. That is the teaching everyone doesn’t like. But we have to do it.
Not only religions. If you study science, psychology, philosophy, or whatever you do, first of all you have to throw yourself away, you have to be empty. And then you have to accept the teaching given the ancestors, you have to learn with empty heart. That’s pretty hard, but we have to do it. Particularly religion is talking about the full aliveness of life in every aspect of your daily living: washing your face, and going to work; wherever you may go, religious life must be alive. But in science, psychology, and physics, maybe in the realm of the arts, your life is really work, but [at large], you don’t know what to do. So that’s why even the great artists are really complicated, confused in daily life; lots of stuff there. But religion is penetrating every inch of your everyday life; you have to learn how to take care of [everyday life]. This is religion. For this, we have to take one step forward from the top of the hundred foot high pole. That means the practice of egolessness. Beyond I am okay or I am not okay, we have to really do something.
So that is this chapter. Next, we’ll read the verse of this chapter.
50:07
During sesshin I told you a little bit that sometimes the practice of egolessness is misunderstood, because it seems to accept no subjectivity, no respect of individuals. But I don’t think that is the right understanding. I told you during sesshin, in whatever situation you may be in, you have to manifest yourself in an appropriate way, in a perfect way, as best you can. When you become a server, when you become a cook, when you become a student who is sitting zazen, you have to manifest yourself in an appropriate way, in a perfect way, as best as you can. Anyway manifest, beyond you like or you don’t like, beyond it is right or it is wrong. According to the suggestion or teaching, we have to do it, we have to manifest ourselves like this. That is called genjo: presently manifesting, presently becoming. That is called realization. Next, we have to get through, [step] down from that stage you really have manifested. Because it’s pretty easy for us to be arrogant for this experience: “I did it,” or, “I am great.” So you are stuck pretty easily in individual experience. So you have to be free from this; let it go.
If you don’t manifest yourself in every aspect of your life, in an appropriate place, during sesshin I told you, very naturally there is somebody who dominates you, [who says] “you should do it,” because you don’t know what to do. There are two kinds of person: a person who doesn’t know what to do, who doesn’t manifest themselves in an appropriate way; so you are depending on somebody, so somebody dominates you. And then finally you don’t feel good, because somebody always dominates you, so you become mad at them. The other person is who is always rebellious, resistant. Resistant is fine. But if you are resistant [to] whatever it is, I think you should leave, or you should make a choice of some other thing. If you don’t do that, if you keep staying in the same place and you are always rebellious, you know what happens: very naturally somebody appears and dominates you. That domination gets worse. Finally, you become really egoistic, and then somebody dominates you overwhelmingly, and then finally that just becomes like army training.
Army training is really we have to do one thing with many people. But unfortunately people are very egoistic, rebellious; that’s very common. They don’t have enough time to teach the religious way of life; they really want to do something right away, using lots of manpower. What do they do for this? Very naturally, somebody like a sergeant dominates you again and again. If you don’t [do what they say], well they completely dominate you. That is completely that you are just like a toy. And then, we say, we can create peace. I don’t think so!
Sangha is not like this. Sangha is not the peace we create like that. If you are rebellious or resistant, well, think carefully [about] yourself. And then, if you want to be here, you have to be careful. But if you don’t want [to be here] – if you want to rebel constantly, and interrupt others – very naturally you have to leave. Because you are still free. I don’t want to put you in army training in order to create a peaceful sangha. That’s nothing but an army, so I don’t want to do that. [But] particularly toward our teaching, our kind of religious ceremony, to the minimum anyway I have to be careful to do this. But still you are always rebellious against this. So that’s fine; I [have no] control. And also I change a lot of things, because the situation changes, and also, if I find something wrong, if something is not appropriate, I have to change it. Small things are changing constantly. I don’t care whether you are rebellious against small things, okay? But the main things, you should follow exactly… and manifest yourself in every aspect of your practice: kinhin, zazen, gassho, and morning service, et cetera, in appropriate ways. Then very naturally, you don’t need anybody to dominate you, so very naturally, we can create a peaceful sangha. But if you don’t, then very naturally someone here dominates you. Then very naturally you don’t feel good, because it’s just like army training. But I don’t think [it’s like that]. You should be careful, anyway.
That is oneness, the-same-and-oneness. Heaven and earth and you are the-same-and-one. This is the practice.