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Summary

Katagiri Roshi further expounds on “Ch’ang Sha Wandering in the Mountains,” focusing on the verse. He especially focuses on the first line, “The earth is clear of any dust.” This is Buddha’s world, which is identical with the original nature of existence. But also, “A mad monkey cries on the ancient terrace”: this is us looking through the telescope of our karmic perceptions. Buddhist practice is not to destroy all human delusions and then you can have Buddha’s world; we need both. Good or bad are nothing but time, but time is not good or bad. A monk walks in the snow without leaving a trace.

Transcript

Listen to this talk on mnzencenter.org

0:00 start of recording

Tonight we will study Setcho Zenji’s verse on Case 36. Let me first read the case that we studied last week:

One day Ch’ang Sha went wandering in the mountains. Upon returning, when he got to the gate, the head monk asked, “Where are you coming from, Master?”
Sha said, “From wandering in the mountains.”
The head monk asked, “Where did you go?”
Sha said, “First I went pursuing the fragrant grasses; then I returned following the falling flowers.”
The head monk said, “How very much like the sense of springtime.”
Sha said, “It even surpasses the autumn dew dripping on the lotuses.” Hsueh Tou added the remark, “Thanks for your reply.”

(From The Blue Cliff Record, translated by Thomas Cleary & J.C. Cleary.)

That is the case. The verse on this case:

The earth is clear of any dust—
Whose eyes do not open?
First he went following the fragrant grasses,
Then he returned pursuing the falling flowers.
A weary crane alights on a withered tree,
A mad monkey cries on the ancient terrace.
Ch’ang Sha’s boundless meaning—
Bah!

2:08

The earth is clear of any dust—

The case talked about Ch’ang Sha’s perfect freedom in his life. That freedom is coming from “the earth is clear of any dust.” That is Buddha’s world. Plainly speaking, we say equality, or perfect peace, or Buddha’s land, where there is no discrimination between subject and object. All exist in peace and harmony, relating to each other, helping each other, giving to each other, perfectly; no trouble, no misunderstanding. This is Buddha’s world, and Buddha’s world is exactly identical with the original nature of existence, where you are present from to moment. That is real reality.

So that real reality you are present in from moment to moment is something [where] you must be there, you must believe it, you must act there, as human beings. That is a very basic understanding in Buddhism. Buddhist practice is not to destroy human beings, human delusions, and the human world, and then after removing all delusions then you can have Buddha’s world. That is completely a misunderstanding. You cannot do that, because at that time you already create a dualistic world, because [you believe] you are not Buddha, you don’t believe in the real reality you are present in, that is completely limpid, pure, very clean, uncontaminated. That is real reality; you are present [in it] from moment to moment. We have to believe in it. We have to act in this realm.

If you think “I am Buddha, but I am not Buddha now, so I want to be Buddha by practice,” this is really dualistic understanding, because at that time Buddha is already your object. But in Buddha’s land, in the real reality, object and subject are completely equal, that’s why you are always emphasizing peace and equality. Why do you want to have peace right in the middle of the human world? Right in the middle of nuclear races between human beings, human races? Real peace means whatever kind of race you belong to, you as a human being must be peaceful. That means whatever you may be or whoever you are, you are exactly in equality. That is peace; that is a state of human life you are present in from moment to moment, regardless of whether you are conscious of it or not. That’s why you emphasize peace constantly, always advocate peace and harmony, to live in peace. That is very basic Buddhist understanding. You are already Buddha, so you have to believe it, and you have to realize it, you have to act there, as a human being in the Buddha’s realm, Buddha’s world.

7:51

Buddha is, I told you before, absolutely limpid, pure, and clean. Nothing to contaminate. If so, we have to act there. But if you act there, you act, you who have your own karmic life act, so more or less we are already contaminated, because [we are] thinking, analyzing, synthesizing, criticizing, always. In other words, we already see you and others, all beings, from your own telescope that is called karmic life.

[In Japanese] we say gou-kan. Gou (業) of gou-kan is karma. Kan (勘) of gou-kan is perception. So you act already in the realm of karmic perceptions. Karmic perceptions means already you see something through your telescope. That telescope is a completely individual telescope, so the world becomes completely individual. But the world is one, exactly one, which is peaceful, harmonious. The world is one. But if you see the world, you divide it into many kinds of world. That’s why we are always fighting. So that is called karmic perceptions. We live according to karmic perceptions.

Or sometimes we say gou-shiki in Japanese, which means karmic consciousness. Sometimes we say [gou-tsu]; [gou-tsu] means karmic proficiency, or karmic penetration. It means the penetrating power which you accumulated in the past. In other words, in your past life you did something, so you have great capacity, something more than capacity acquired after your birth. There is a capacity which you haven’t acquired after birth; that capacity is something which you cultivated in your past life. That is called karmic penetrating power, or in other words karmic penetration, karmic proficiency.

For instance, an owl can see everything at night. A cat can see everything at night. A lion is huge king of the animals: strong, tough. The same applies to human beings. Some of you are just like a lion: working hard and being successful running your business, so you [reach] the top level of life in human society. But some are always working hard but they cannot be at the top level of life in human society, so always they are in the middle of, or sometimes in the lower level of human life. We really admire the person who has been successful in doing his business, the so-called “great man.” For instance if I am really successful in running this center, bigger and bigger from moment to moment, then everyone respects me: “Wonderful, Katagiri!” And if I don’t, no one pays attention to me. But whatever I do, whether I am successful in teaching Buddhism in the United States or I am not successful in teaching Buddhism in the United States, both are understanding of human life according to karmic proficiency.

If I succeed in my business, my life, I become “enlightened,” because I have capacities I have accumulated in my past life. So I don’t know why I can succeed. I become a lion. I eat cats and rats, and whatever it is. I am a success and a strong man. Everyone says, “You are great.” But I don’t think so. I am just like a lion, exactly the same. It’s not necessary to admire me as a great man who realizes the truth, because I am just like a lion: doing something hard and being successful, that’s all. But this is nothing but the understanding of human life according to my karmic life. So if I don’t succeed in my life, this is also just like a rat in a lion’s cage. [Well, what’s wrong?] Whatever I understand, no matter how long I work hard and try to be successful, or even though I [sacrifice] my life, I cannot succeed. Or sometimes I can. [Whichever it is], that is nothing but the understanding of human life according to karmic life. It is just like an owl seeing everything at night. A human being cannot see everything at night. That’s alright, but a human being really wants to see everything at night just like an owl. And if we see someone who can see everything at night, everyone respects him or her.

For instance, mysterious mediums in Japan. If you were go to Japan, there are lots of mediums. They guide you to have a wonderful conversation with your ancestors, your [departed] parents, your brothers and sisters. I don’t understand why people want to do that. If people have a chance to talk with their ancestors and parents who died in the past, are they happy then? Temporarily happy; but the next moment, they come back to normal life. Human beings really are curious about something mysterious, because we don’t know [about it]. So if you do something mysterious, everyone respects you. If you walk in the sky, everyone really respects you; you become [like] a god. But for me, I don’t think it’s “god”; it’s nothing but karmic life. Sooner or later, you fall into Lake Calhoun. [Laughter.] Not in summer, in winter. [Laughter.] It’s really true.

19:12

Whatever we do, we always do according to karmic life. That’s why Dogen Zenji says, “Good or bad are nothing but time, but time is not good or bad.”

“Good and bad are time” means that under certain circumstances you can do something wholesome, but it [is] just under certain circumstances, your karmic life, that you can do [it]. But if you do something wholesome and then you become really haughty, you have a haughty air, take pride in yourself, [thinking] you’re doing so much – then good turns into something bad, because it’s really you and others [interacting]. So something good is not always good, something good turns into something bad.

From this point, a Zen Master says, “Do not do something good [carefree].” [He chuckles.] If it is true, should I do something bad? He says, “If you do something good and you create something wrong, much less should you do something wrong.” Do you understand? [He chuckles.] If you do something good and that good creates something wrong, then if so, if you do something wrong, you create something wrong. But if you do something wrong, it’s better than a person who does something good, because the person who does something wrong is always becoming quiet and humble, not holy, because he or she is always reflecting upon him or herself. So they are very naturally quiet and tolerant and thinking carefully. But if there is a person who always does something good, they become “holy.” [They might say,] “I’ve done zazen for ten years, and you are just a beginner.” Consciously or unconsciously, it’s very difficult for us to get rid of this. If you do practice zazen, you really understand [this]. So that’s why a Zen Master says, “Do not do something wholesome [carefree].”

If it is true, should we do something wrong? [The Zen Master] said, “Even though you do something good, it’s getting worse, much less should you do something wrong.” That means whatever you do, you always see your doing it from your telescope; that is karmic life. Karmic life is always leading you to really grasp and attach. If you do something good, you really attach strongly. If you do something wrong, you don’t want to do it so you try to forget it, but still, trying to forget it is already attachment. Whatever you do, you always attach, because you look at your life according to your telescope; that is karmic life. So an important point is, in the Buddha’s world you cannot attach to your doings. But without your body and mind, without your karmic life, you cannot live in the Buddha’s world. So you have to live your life with your karmic life, but the important point is that you have to take care of your life not in the realm of karmic life, [but] in the Buddha’s world. That way you cannot attach to any sense of good or bad, right or wrong, because Buddha’s world is exactly limpid, pure, clean. It is not something that is a matter of discussion. You have to do something good; at that time just do something. So it’s nothing but the continuation of your practice. From moment to moment, just do.

26:05

Oka Sotan Zenji was one of the famous Zen Masters in Japan almost a hundred years ago. One winter, another Zen teacher said to Oka Zenji, “You should walk in the snow without leaving any trace.” Oka Zenji lifted his [robes] and just started to walk in the snow. Just walking. And then he said, “Is that alright?” [He laughs.] Another teacher said, “Still a trace there,” but he just continued to walk. Do you understand? Just walk. “I can see a trace” means I can see him doing his practice from my telescope: the dualistic sense, karmic life. “I can see a trace” is already I have a sense of discrimination; I see what he is doing exactly from the dualistic sense. But Oka Zenji’s practice is just going, beyond leaving a trace or not leaving a trace, just practice. Immediately karmic life picks it up and analyzes, criticizes, and discriminates; but it’s not for Oka Zenji, it’s for another teacher who criticizes.

The important point is, from moment to moment, when you do gassho, just do gassho, [continuously]. Your mind has already been tamed by analyzing and synthesizing – that is karmic life. You already have karmic life; that’s why [you’re] constantly picking up, analyzing. But right in the middle of practice, all you have to do is that your body and mind must be right in the middle of the process of practice. That’s all we have to do. At that time, all the colors on the top become one when it spins, perfectly.

29:28

When I was at the temple, I couldn’t chant the sutras well enough, but in one months or two months after becoming a monk, one of the village’s families invited me to a memorial service. In a memorial service in Japan the priest went there and performed a Buddhist service, and after the service they treated the priest, offering food, et cetera. But at that time I couldn’t chant well enough, so even though I was invited by them, I didn’t want to go. So I was in my room, and then my teacher started to leave. Usually I followed him immediately, but at that time I didn’t. So he walked a little bit and then turned back toward the temple, but he couldn’t find me, so he returned to the temple and asked me, “Why aren’t you going? You don’t want to go because you think that you cannot chant the sutra well enough, that’s why don’t want to go?” He was exactly right, so I said yes. He said, “You are invited. The village people know pretty well you cannot chant the sutra well enough. Nevertheless you are invited; why don’t you go?” That means I attached to “I’m not a good priest chanting the sutras.” That’s why I hesitated. But the teachers’ statement was really true, because people knew I became a monk two monks previously, so how could I learn all the sutras? I couldn’t do it. So everyone knows, but I was invited, that’s why all I had to do is just go there.

Anyway, I went. That is a pretty good example. Even beginners: if everyone knows you are a beginner, nevertheless why don’t you perform the buddhist service, why don’t you talk? You should talk, doing your best. People know, people don’t expect more than your capacity. So if you’re invited, just do it, instead of attaching to your self seen from your telescope. Just do it. This is really nothing but the practice, before you see yourself from your telescope. [It’s the same for] gassho, zazen, kinhin, studying Buddhism, or whatever.

From this point, you shouldn’t lean on your understanding, good or bad, wholesome or unwholesome, beginner or advanced, teacher and enlightened person or not enlightened person. You shouldn’t lean on your knowledge. If you think you are an enlightened person: fine. All you have to do is to manifest yourself as enlightened person in the Buddha’s land; that means without leaving any trace. All you have to do is just walk in the snow. If people say, “Oh, there is a trace,” that is not your business. All you have to do is just walk with careful attention, listening to Buddha’s teaching. Walk with wholeheartedness. When you do zazen, do zazen with your wholeheartedness, without looking around, without turning [around]. We are always looking around, right side, left side, and turning [around]; sometimes go farther, seeing enlightenment. [Looking around is] nothing but playing on the way, wasting time. You’ll never be Buddha [that way]. So all you have to do is when you do zazen, using your karmic body and mind, just do it. This is so-called Buddhist practice.

That is the first line: “The earth is clear of any dust.”

36:33

Engo Zenji’s note says,

Open wide the doors and windows—who is under the eaves? None can miss this. The world is at peace.

“Open wide the doors and windows”: no segmentation, no partitions. The doors are open [for] everyone.

“Who is under the eaves?” There is no particular person, so-called I. If you are specified as I, that is already you looking at yourself through your telescope; that’s why always the I comes first.

This morning we read Zuimonki, and [in a story,] Eisai Zen Master gave some important thing (a bolt of silk) to a poor person. Even though their temple was very poor, not enough food for all the monks practicing there, he gave it away. That means not only the monk’s life but everyone’s life should be based on egolessness. That means take away your telescope. He shows practically exactly what is the practice of egolessness. “Just do it”; he does it. That’s why later he said, “[Your life should be based on egolessness] even though you die, even though you are starved to death.” No problem, you should die, you should be starved to death, because your life and your body and mind must be exactly living in the realm of egolessness. That means taking away the telescope and just behaving in the Buddha’s world. Particularly a monk’s life should be so. A monk’s life, their body and mind must be exactly egolessness.

So, there is no particular person there, so-called I. If you say I, consciously or unconsciously I comes first. At that time you become a secondary person; you cannot be the first person. The first person means Buddha; you cannot be Buddha [if you say I].

So, “Who is under the eaves?” No one. Completely open, pure, clean.

“None can miss this”: No one can miss this one. You are already in the Buddha’s realm. You are greatness of existence.

“The world is at peace”: Buddha’s world is completely peaceful and in harmony. But human beings always believe by themselves, “I am not Buddha.” That’s why Buddha has to teach, “You are Buddhas.” This is Buddha’s compassion.

40:55

Whose eyes do not open?

Everyone’s eyes are open already. So who’s eyes do not open? [Is there] a particular person [who’s eyes] should be open? Engo Zen Master’s note is,

One must emit a great radiant light from his forehead before this is possible.

From our karmic life, we say immediately, “Is it possible?” Well before we say it is possible or not, we are already illuminated from right here, between the eyebrows. That means you are already greatness of existence, beyond human speculation, human judgement, human evaluation, good or bad, right or wrong. So from moment to moment, in this realm, we have to realize it, we have to taste it, we have to [act on it] …

[Tape change.]

42:10

First he went following the fragrant grasses,
Then he returned pursuing the falling flowers.

These two sentences are exactly the same things as the case says.

First he went following the fragrant grasses,

If you act in Buddha’s realm, very naturally there is one type of practice: that is egolessness. It means you have to tune the dial into the rhythm of the truth, not the rhythm of your karmic life. You have to seek for the truth constantly. This is the first point: we have to constantly elevate ourself by aiming at the truth, egolessness. So very naturally, egolessness means to take away your telescope. That means not to attach to either [side] of understanding: good or evil, right or wrong. You cannot attach to it, because whatever you say, you cannot hit the mark. Finally all return to emptiness.

In modern civilization we created TV. The TV set is pretty good, in a sense, but do you think it’s good? Because of TV, there was someone who committed suicide. Because of TV, there was someone who was completely lazy. So what is good? Finally you cannot pin down what is good. Modern civilization is pretty good because it gives you a better life; but at that time do you believe modern civilization is good? I don’t think so, because the more you create a wonderful machine, the more you become lazy, because it’s not necessary to use your effort. Just push a button, and everything comes up; it’s not necessary to use your hands and your brains, all you have to do is push a button. And also finally we create nuclear weapons, et cetera, to kill the most human beings. I don’t know if it’s good. But in a sense you cannot say [modern civilization] is bad, because it’s good in a sense. Finally you cannot attach to anything, so you have to carefully behave in the Buddha’s realm. You have to take care of good or bad, right or wrong carefully.

All we have to do is elevate ourself, cultivate ourself, aiming at the truth, which is pure and no discrimination, and then think how should we act there. This is constant bodhisattva practice.

Then he returned pursuing the falling flowers.

It means you cannot always be in paradise, after seeking for the truth. So more or less, you shouldn’t leave any trace of being in paradise. You have to descend to the human world. But on the other hand, you cannot always leave a trace of being in the human world, because you have to seek for the truth. We need both practices; with both you cannot leave any trace. Just seek for the truth, but simultaneously you should be in the human world. But [if you] open your eyes widely you have to be involved in the human world too much; at that time you’re really confused. So you should open your eyes just half, and communicate with the human world, seeking for the truth.

48:21

A weary crane alights on a withered tree,

This is another expression of the first verse: “The earth is clear of any dust.”

A mad monkey cries on the ancient terrace.

“A mad monkey” means a person who maintains the continuity of practice like a fool, like a dunce. It seems to be sad, because you are a fool, you are a dunce. But real practice, real behavior in the Buddha’s realm, is nothing but the continuation of Buddha’s practice. For this, you have to be like a fool, like a dunce. Which means very tacit practice, very tacit continual, eternal practice, constantly. So, how do you behave in the Buddha’s world? What is the practice in the Buddha’s world? That is very tacit, quiet, continuity of practice, from moment to moment. Just walk in the snow.

Ch’ang Sha’s boundless meaning—

Hsueh Tou explained the content of Ch’ang Sha’s freedom in his daily life, saying, “A weary crane alights on a withered tree, or a mad monkey cries on the ancient terrace.” Whatever he says, it nothing but the words. So finally he says, “Ch’ang Sha’s boundless meaning”: what is the real freedom that he has? [That is his] boundless meaning. It’s pretty hard to say. So that’s why finally he said,

Bah!

“Bah” means just a sound.

But Engo Zen Master says,

A man in the weeds; this is drawing the bow after the thief has gone. Still, he can’t be let go.

Even if he screams “Bah!” loudly, in order to blow out delusions, in order to explain real freedom, still “bah” is a kind of word. That’s why Engo Zen Master says Hsueh Tou is in the weeds; still he is in the human world, the phenomenal world. But this is not criticism. He really respects Hsueh Tou’s verse, but he says it like this ironically. This is nothing but admiration toward him.

“This is drawing the bow after the thief has gone”: Whatever he says, it’s too late. If you say something, it has already missed hitting real freedom. Real freedom is something alive from moment to moment in your life.

“Still he can’t be let go”: Even Hsueh Tou Zen Master cannot let go of this, let go of words, the explanation of freedom. Too many words.

Okay, that is the simple explanation. The commentary is pretty good. Do you have questions?

54:14

Question: Hojo-san? Page 272, that poem, especially the last two lines:

Originally I intended to practice to help save others;
Who would have suspected that instead I would become an idiot?

Can you just [unintelligible].

Katagiri: The purpose of practice is to save all sentient beings. To save all beings is that you have to attain enlightenment simultaneously with all sentient beings. So all sentient beings attain enlightenment with you simultaneously. That means no discrimination between you and all sentient beings.

To save or to help others means just to practice, continuation of practice, which is fully alive, instead of judging or evaluating the result of your doings. Because very naturally you can have a result if you do something. The result is not something you should stay with, the result is something you have to deal with as soon as possible. You have to move, constantly. The current result shouldn’t be something you have to carry on your back as a hint what to do in the next moment, toward the future. All you have to do is, from moment to moment your life must be alive in the Buddha’s realm. That means not to attach to good, not to attach to bad, not to attach to neutral. Anyway, you have to just be alive.

So that means I attain enlightenment simultaneously with all beings, because in the Buddha’s realm, all beings exist there, so you become one with it. So that is “how do you know” (or “who would have suspected”?) That is eternal continuation of practice, without leaving any trace of good or evil or neutral, whatever. Just practice. Because that is nothing but the practicer, like a fool, like a dunce. Very quiet practice. That’s why here it says, “Originally I intended to practice to help save others; who would have suspected that instead I would become an idiot?” He tried to help others through practicing zazen – but what is this?

58:35

Question: Roshi, you said that everyone’s life should be based on egolessness even though you starve to death. And sometimes you say, “It’s not necessary to commit suicide.” And it seems to me like those things are opposite.

Katagiri: Yes. Because if I say “commit suicide,” you commit suicide, and if you commit suicide, you cannot practice zazen, you cannot help all sentient beings. That’s why I say you shouldn’t commit suicide. But if you say you shouldn’t commit suicide, you always [think of] yourself first; I come first. That’s why you should commit suicide with all sentient beings. Whatever we say, always we are running on this side or on that side, and attaching to it, and seeing something completely from this [angle]. But you cannot attach to either one of them.

In zazen, in a sense you commit suicide with zazen, otherwise you cannot do zazen exactly, as true zazen. If you always bring up yourself first – “I am doing zazen” – you really hate zazen, don’t you think so? So even in zazen, you should commit suicide with zazen. In other words, you kill your “self” in zazen. At that time zazen is really alive, and also you are alive.

1:00:50

Question: Hojo-san, how does that relate to loving yourself first in this world, and also knowing when to put yourself first. Like, are there times when you have to consider yourself first?

Katagiri: Well, even though you don’t think so, you always come first, don’t you think so?

Same person: In a sense…

Katagiri: Not “in a sense”; actually you do this always. [He laughs, and the group laughs.] You always do that in that way. Because if you want to do zazen, you do it first, you should come first, you know? And then you do zazen. No one can do zazen for you, so you do it. So you comes first, in many ways. But that is not the right point that you have to depend on finally. You have to go beyond this: you have to polish you, who does [zazen]. Because you have to be one with zazen. So you cannot say I come first and then I do zazen: this is dualistic common sense, but at that time always there is a gap between zazen and you, so very naturally you cannot feel intimate with zazen. Always criticizing, feeling good or bad, right or wrong; but they are nothing but impermanent, ups and downs always, so very naturally you become uneasy and restless. In order to settle yourself in the self, in peace and harmony in zazen, you come first but you don’t come first. Maybe zazen comes first. No, it’s not that zazen comes first. Well, we don’t know which of the two comes first. Anyway, they are one.

Same person: Well, from the passage this morning, is there a time when it would have been right to keep the bolt of silk, rather than give it to the [person], to buy food for the… I don’t know…

Katagiri: This is your speculation. [He laughs.] But at that time, nothing else; Eisai Zen Master gave it. Maybe there was some reason why he gave it. But intellectually it doesn’t make sense, because you are very poor, you don’t have enough food to support all the monks, but you give it anyway.

1:04:48

Question: Hojo-san? The four conclusions that I drew this morning were all ways of intellectually trying to understand whether you [get] something or not. Are you saying that that whole process is wrong, basically?

Katagiri: [He laughs.] [Not] wrong. But actually, what is the practice of egolessness? Even though you analyze and think, understanding much better by your analysis, it is still [just] your understanding. But actually practicing egolessness is not so easy, particularly under difficult conditions. So that is nothing but practice.

Same person: But it seems like the result – I mean if you can even do it, it is difficult. But if you can see it from that kind of place, still, what about the result that it has on the way other people interpret it, or what it does to them?

Katagiri: Well it’s not necessary to interpret why, sometimes. Sometimes people by themselves will understand.

Same person: But what about the people who don’t, and actually…

Katagiri: Well that’s alright. Even though they understand it, it’s still the same as the people who don’t understand, you know. Understanding or not understanding is exactly the same, because we are looking at a certain situation from our telescope, and then someone says, “I understand,” or “I don’t understand.” But both are what? For instance, look at zazen. “I understand zazen; you don’t understand zazen.” Which of the two is best? Understanding is best? I don’t think so. It’s still nothing but karmic life. Sooner or later, I don’t understand what I have understood. So finally all I have to do is … just zazen.

You love yourself best in this world, more than others. But you don’t love others, or you don’t love yourself? Well even though you say you don’t love [others] best, or you don’t love yourself best, whatever you say, you are you. So who are you? Are you the person who loves yourself best? No. Sometimes right in the middle of your love, you really hate yourself. So, who are you? Are you a person whom you hate? No, you love [yourself] so much. Even including hatred, including suffering, you love it. So, who are you?

Whatever you judge, evaluate, think, it is nothing but understanding human life in terms of a telescope. So that’s why Dogen Zenji says, “Good or bad is time, but time is not good or bad.” It means there is a time beyond good or bad, right or wrong. So you must be right in the middle of this time, the stream of time, beyond good or bad, right or wrong. So you have to go.

1:09:30 end of recording.

This talk was transcribed by Kikan Michael Howard. Audio recordings of Katagiri Roshi are being used with permission of Minnesota Zen Meditation Center.

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