July 23, 1980 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi

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Summary

Katagiri Roshi concludes his series of talks on the Diamond Sutra by examining the famous verse at the end, which tells us to view the conditioned world “as stars, a fault of vision, a lamp, a mock show, dew drops, a bubble, a dream, a lightning flash, a cloud.” The nine perspectives in the verse reveal different aspects of our experience. Overall, it means that we should respect the law of causation, our past life and its consequences, without being stuck in it. While still being humble, we can move bravely toward the future, toward a beautiful ideal image of human life.

Transcript

Listen to this talk on mnzencenter.org

0:00

Katagiri Roshi: [At the end, there is a] famous verse in the Diamond Sutra. It says:

As stars, a fault of vision, a lamp,
A mock show, dew drops, or a bubble,
A dream, a lightning flash, or cloud,
So should one view what is conditioned.

(From “Buddhist Wisdom: The Diamond Sutra and the Heart Sutra” by Edward Conze, p. 69.)

This is a very famous verse in Buddhism. It means the world which is conditioned, in other words all conditioned beings, are just like stars, a fault of vision, a lamp, a mock show, dew drops, a bubble, a dream, a lightning flash, or cloud.

Asanga, one of the famous Buddhist scholars in ancient times, had a commentary to this verse. He says:

The Tatagatha’s nirvana is neither the same as the conditioned world in causation, nor different from it. Partly because even after entering nirvana, Buddhas appear as Nirmanakaya Buddha in the world to preach, and partly because the characteristics of all conditioned beings are considered from the nine points of view, with their right knowledge.

(Source of translation unknown.)

The conditioned world is the world which you can see, which you can hear, [et cetera,] through your six consciousnesses [and] six sense organs. And this world is understood in terms the law of causation, cause and effect. The world is always moving, but the function of the world is backed by the law causation. Whatever we think, how we understand the world [and] human life, [is] exactly in the system of causation. If you don’t understand [anything] or if you don’t see or hear anything according to the law of causation, it is very difficult to live in this world.

For instance, if you practice zazen for one month, or two months, or years, consciously or unconsciously we expect a result. If you go to school, there is a result. You have to finish first grade, and go to second grade. This is important; if you don’t, it’s very difficult to finish school.

And also, if you trust in [yourself] or if you trust in others, there are always sort of cultural backgrounds. [There are] lots of cultural backgrounds in time and space: American culture, Japanese culture, and customs, heredity, habits, et cetera. We wear lots of clothes. And then we can depend on human life, and we can trust in ourselves and others. If we don’t have anything, it’s very difficult to live in this world.

So strictly speaking, we live in the realm of the law of causation. This is the dualistic world; this is the human world we live in. That’s why [it says] “the Tatagatha’s nirvana is neither the same as the conditioned world in causation”; this [dualistic world] is called the conditioned world in causation.

But “the Tatagatha’s nirvana” – nirvana means freedom, liberation; perfect liberation from human suffering. “The Tatagatha’s nirvana is neither the same as the conditioned world in causation”… in other words, a perfect peaceful life is liberated from the law of causation. We live in the law of causation; that’s why we cannot ignore the law of causation. But there is no reason why we have to be completely tied up with the law of causation. We have to be free from the law of causation.

In other words, if you do something wrong, the result is wrong – this is the law of causation. But actually, even though you do something good, sometimes you don’t see the good result. And also, sometimes even though you do something good, the result is not good. So, we always have two aspects. Your life is backed by the law of causation; you cannot ignore it. Whatever you do, whatever you [may be], there is always causation. But on the other hand, you cannot understand human life exactly just according to the law of causation, because cause and effect are sometimes not exactly fitting, not exactly the same.

So even though your motivation is good, [sometimes] the result is not good. Have you experienced this? The motivation is good: “I want to help.” According to the motivation, you want to help somebody, but the result is completely reversed: you hurt somebody. And also [sometimes] people don’t accept your help, your motivation, so people really get angry with you. So even though the motivation is good as a cause, the result is not good. From this point, the basic nature of human life is completely free from the law of causation. But on the other hand, you cannot completely ignore the law of causation. That’s why reality is very contradictory.

Asanga says, “The Tatagatha’s nirvana is neither the same as conditioned world in causation, nor different from it.” So, the peaceful world is not exactly the same as the dualistic world, but not different from it. Asanga says, “Partly because even after entering nirvana” – for instance, even though you enter the peaceful life, even though you can live your life in peace and harmony with people day after day, still you have your own physical body and mind, which are suffering from human life.

So even after entering nirvana, “Buddhas appear as Nirmanakaya Buddha.” Nirmanakaya Buddha means the human body. Buddha was born in this world with a human body; this is Buddha Shakyamuni. […] The Buddha has to teach the Buddha’s teaching constantly. In order to teach, he has to have his own human body, human mind.

11:30

Why is it that “the Tatagatha’s nirvana is neither the same as the conditioned world in causation, nor different from it?” “Partly because even after entering nirvana, Buddhas appears as Nirmanakaya Buddha in the world to preach…”

… and partly because the characteristics of all conditioned beings are considered from the nine points of view, with their right knowledge.

The nine points of view: those are “as stars, a fault of vision, a lamp, a mock show, dew drops, a bubble, a dream, a lightning flash, a cloud.” Those are nine.

Asanga says “partly because the characteristic of all conditioned beings are considered from the nine points of view” because we live in the conditioned world, we cannot escape from this. If you cannot escape from the world, you have to understand the world, what it is, because you have to be there. If you don’t understand, if you ignore understanding the place we’re living in, that is really a cause of human trouble. So the place and time where human beings are present has to be understood as best as we can. That is awareness. That’s why “the characteristics of all conditioned beings are considered from the nine points of view.”

Asanga says the first three – stars, a fault of vision, a lamp – examine the characteristics of the conditioned world in terms of cognition. Buddhism is not the philosophy of ontology, not the study of existence, but the study of knowing – in the relationship between subject and object. How we should understand object and subject, and then, how to practice, according to right understanding of subject and object. That is Buddhism. It’s not the philosophy of ontology. Ontology is that you always have to see something, and analyze and synthesize philosophically, scientifically – researching a being which is [intact], interrupted by no one. This is science, this is philosophy. But Buddhism is not exactly ontology, the study of existence, but the study of knowing, understanding subject and object, and through the right understanding of subject and object we have to figure out the way to practice there. That is Buddhism. That’s why the first three – stars, a fault of vision, a lamp – examine the characteristic of the conditioned world in terms of cognition.

The next three – a mock show, dew drops, a bubble – [are] in terms of humanistic experience. According to humanistic experience, not only Buddhists but everybody, whoever they are, whatever they believe or whatever they don’t believe – as long as they live in this world as a human being, everyone without exception can experience the characteristic of the human world as a mock show, dew drops, and a bubble.

The last three – a dream, a lightning flash, or a cloud – [are] in terms of origination in time, in the system of the time process. Human life appears and disappears from moment to moment. That state of human beings is exactly universal. That’s why here it says the characteristic of the conditioned world is just like a dream, a lightning flash, or a cloud.

18:21

And finally, Asanga says:

Thereby Buddha, being present in the conditioned world which changes in causation, gains the power of liberation without being defiled by.

Remember this point, otherwise you [will] misunderstand this verse.

(This is also read or translated as:)

Thereby Buddhas always exist in the conditioned world which changes in causation, but they gain the power of liberation without being defiled by the world.

So they are living there, but they are not defiled or contaminated by the dualistic world, and then they get the power of liberation, freedom. This is very important for us.

I told you before, all of us exist, all of us must live according to the law of causation. If we do something, whatever happens, we have to take responsibility. [If] our motivation is good but the result is not good, [this is life], according to causation. “We have to be free from causation” doesn’t mean we should ignore our doings; we have to take responsibility for our doings, whatever [they are]. That is a really a good attitude toward the law of causation. Because we live in it, we should respect the law of causation. For this, [whether] for the long range or for a short period of time, we should take responsibility for our doings. At that time, it is really the meaning of accepting the law of causation.

And then next, each of us individually must be Buddha. That means that [you gain] the power of liberation without being contaminated by the law of causation. So still, from moment to moment you must be completely free, in order to create future life from day to day. Even though you understand your life according to your past life: such-and-such happened. This is something you have to reflect upon, and take responsibility for your life, what you have done. But for the future, still there is freedom. You can create new life toward the future, without being bogged down with this life which you have done.

So there are two contradictory aspects. You should be straightforward toward your life which you have done. At that time, you can really respect your past life, and you can really respect the law of causation. On the other hand, you must be brave toward the future, without being stuck there.

To be brave is not arrogance, okay? You must be very humble and modest. Respecting the law of causation, accepting the life you have done, taking responsibility for your doings – and nevertheless, never be stuck there. Be brave toward the future, in order to reach a beautiful ideal image of human life.

That is Asanga’s comment: “The Buddha gains the power of liberation without being defiled by the world.”

24:00

There are commentaries to the nine points of view by Doctor Conze in this book (“Buddhist Wisdom: The Diamond Sutra and the Heart Sutra”, pp. 69-73). These commentaries are very good, so I would like to read them one by one, and think about these nine points of view.

The first one,

1. Like stars.

The conditioned world is just like stars. He explains three points:

(a) Stars are distant and unreachable. One cannot get to them; they are unattainable, as all dharmas are. One cannot lay hands on them, cannot possess them.

Stars are very distant and unreachable – this is very understandable. “One cannot get to them; they are unattainable, as all [dharmas] are.” Because all the conditioned world is constantly changing, so it’s very difficult to hold on [to something] just for you. So, it’s just like stars.

(b) They are small in size, insignificant, when seen on the background of the vast vacuity of space.

I think so. Stars are just tiny entities. In comparison with the vast vacuity of space, anyway, a star is very small in size, small in significance, just like if you compare a poppy seed to the Himalayan mountains.

So the conditioned world is constantly changing and moving; we cannot grasp it in our hand. We cannot understand exactly what it is, because it is always changing. No matter how long you live in this world, you cannot pin down what is life, what is the human world. But we have to understand. Actually, your whole life, you have to learn what life is, what the human world is, constantly, because the world is really unattainable, huge.

(c) They can be seen only when there is no sun. As the stars are no longer visible when the sun comes to shine, so also the things of the world are seen only in the darkness of ignorance, and are no longer noticed when the normal mental reactions to them come to a stop, after the true non-dual cognition of the Absolute has taken place. All mental elements, as Vasubandhu says, disappear when right cognition is realized, just as the stars disappear when the sun shines. They become invisible, and all views cease.

The third point is that the human world is just like stars because stars can be seen only in the darkness of ignorance. Ignorance is explained by Doctor Conze here, it’s a very interesting explanation:

Ignorance means that (a) intellectually, one sees nothing, for ignorance is a condition unfavorable to knowledge …

So intellectually one [can] see nothing. That means, I told you during the seminar, everyone exists right in the middle of the truth, and we want to know, but we cannot know. Intellectually we really want to know what the truth is, what is the place we live in, what is [this] life which we have to take care of. We want to know intellectually – but we don’t know.

So ignorance is always a condition unfavorable to knowledge. So intellectually always there is something unstable. You cannot pin down what it is. This is the human world.

And secondly, he says:

… (b) emotionally, one feels lost and terrified…

Because intellectually you don’t know. The intellectual part of human life occupies [the most] part of human life. Always we handle human life intellectually. But if your intellect cannot meet, cannot touch, cannot pin down what life is, what the human world is – it’s really unstable, it’s really uneasy. We don’t feel comfortable. So emotionally one feels lost and terrified. Very naturally, you are concerned about the next moment, the future. If you’re concerned about the future too much, that is fear. Because the present is really unstable, uneasy, that’s why we don’t feel comfortable. That’s why the present is very uncomfortable, much less the future. That’s why we are very concerned about the future.

Thirdly:

… (c) volitionally, one knocks against things…

[…] Very naturally, some resistance is coming up very strongly from the will or volition. Emotionally or intellectually you cannot pin down what [anything] is, that’s why even though you decide something, you aren’t satisfied. That’s why volitionally, consciously or unconsciously you resist against the determination you have made. And then you move to another determination. [Even if] you like the determination or decision of something, what you have done is really being against [something], consciously or unconsciously. This is ignorance.

… stumbles about…

Very naturally you stumble about.

… is irritated…

Very naturally you are irritated.

… and wants to get to the light.

Even though you cannot know, no matter how long you stumble about and are irritated, still there is a beautiful hope: you want to get to the light. Human beings are very weak, in a sense, but on the other hand they are very strong, because whatever happens, always we want to get to the light. We want to have hope, beautiful hope in the future.

So this is really ignorance, okay? [He chuckles.] That’s why ignorance is really darkness of existence, which makes your life blind. But on the other hand, this is really vitality of human life, by which you can get into human existence. You can live next life; you can live tomorrow. It’s really vitality.

So ignorance has two aspects. It is not [a] good sense, but on the other hand, it’s [a] very good sense, because it’s really [the creative] vitality of human life. Don’t you think so? We have lots of ignorance, lots of delusions, and lots of stinky characteristics. But don’t judge them as evil, unwholesome entities. Of course you should reflect upon your stinky characteristics, but on the other hand, you should appreciate them, because the more you have strong, stinky characteristics, the more you have a greater chance to attain enlightenment. Yes it is [true]. It is sure. So don’t judge your life seeing just one aspect of your personality, because this is [the] basic human nature, which is called ignorance.

[So] your life is just like a star, which is shining only in the darkness – that is the human world. Whatever you see – the human world, people, trees – this is something you can see [in] the darkness of ignorance. Do you understand this? That’s why the world is always perverted by human knowledge. You cannot see the true aspect of the human world as it is, because this is ignorance. But ignorance is not exactly what you would call sin, or guilt, et cetera, because I told you before, it has two aspects.

And fourthly:

(d) Alternatively, the word tārakā (in Sanskrit) can also mean “meteor.” In that case, because of its short life, the meaning is analogous to that of no. 8, the “lightning flash.”

So human life [or] the human world [being] just like a star means a very short life, just like a meteor.

39:48

2. The second item, a fault of vision, timira, may mean “darkness, blindness, a cataract.”

Do you know the cataract? Eye disease.

The ignorant are often compared to people blinded by darkness (see chapter 14g). “Ignorance overpowers beings through lack of vision, or through false vision, just as a cataract overpowers the eyes” (VM 583).

So we are already sickness.

The other day, someone called me by telephone. He really got angry with me, and with the Zen Center, with Zen Center students, saying, “You don’t know what kind of people you have! The people you have in the Zen community are all sick!” I really wanted to tell him, “More or less, everybody is sick.” [Laughter.] “… including you!”

He got really angry with me emotionally, that’s why I didn’t say anything. Whatever I would say, he couldn’t accept. He didn’t understand, so…

Anyway, everyone is sick, very sick. Just as a cataract overpowers [the eyes]. But they don’t believe they are sick, because they don’t notice the cataract. So they believe [they are] a wonderful person, of course.

And finally the man said, “If one of your students does something as a sick person, I will sue you, I will bring you to court.” [Laughter.] He really got angry.

This is “a fault of vision.” That’s why we have to be careful to understand ourselves and others. And also, whatever kind of views we have, or whatever kind of ideas we have, are nothing but perverted already. It doesn’t mean they’re wrong. [But] we understand only the surface, just a part of human life, not the total picture. That is your understanding, your ideas. Whatever you say – nihilism, or communism, or democracy – that is just part of understanding. We attach to it, so that is perverted. So we should keep it warm in individual life, and polish it until it becomes universal. That is very important for us. For this, we must handle daily life with humility toward our ideas, our understanding, or others’ understanding, others’ lifestyle, et cetera – and polish it. For this, you must be patient sometimes. You must be brave. You must be silent sometimes. You must continue to practice silently, et cetera. Those practices are very important.

45:03

And third, a lamp.

3. The simile of the lamp illustrates two aspects of this world of ours: (a) A lamp goes on burning only as long as fuel is fed into it. So also this world continues only while we have cravings.

Craving is [part of] ignorance. Because ignorance is [that] intellectually you cannot pin down [anything], emotionally you feel lost or terrified, volitionally you are always against [something]; that’s why craving very naturally comes up. Because you cannot pin down …

[Tape change.]

… [you are more uneasy] the more you try to hang on. This is craving; very naturally craving comes up.

“[…] A lamp goes on burning only as long as fuel is fed into it. So also this world continues only while we have cravings.” That’s why in a sense we have to use craving in the big scale. I don’t know how to use it in the big scale. The big scale is to use craving for saving all sentient beings.

And also craving is very dangerous because you create the cause of human troubles. You cannot live in peace and harmony. But on the other hand, cravings are very strong energies by which you can lead to the human world, you can take care of human life. For instance, you can seek for the truth constantly, whatever happens; this is really human craving. So craving also has two aspects of meaning.

When craving ceases to supply the drive, the world will come to an end.

That doesn’t mean the complete destruction of the world. “When craving ceases to supply the drive, the world will come to an end” means you have to understand where craving comes from – in other words, what is [original] human nature. If you really understand craving, you can handle the craving in a better way. But practically, we don’t have a particular pattern: you cannot say we should handle craving in this way, or in that way, because daily life is changing constantly. That’s why I told you before, broadly speaking, we constantly have to be humble and modest in our daily living. And on the other hand, we have to be brave toward future life. At that time you can really use craving in the big scale, for seeking for the truth.

And the second point:

(b) In their Indian form, before glass chimneys came to be used, lamps were liable to be blown out by the wind. Likewise one conditioned thing is very easily disturbed by others, and the continued existence of conditioned dharmas is all the time distinctly precarious.

In other words, the human world is very weak, because it is liable to be destroyed by others very easily. Human beings are very weak, in a sense. But as long as you have craving, you believe “I am strong.” On the other hand, cravings are very breakable, very weak, just like a lamp.

So very naturally, “continued existence of conditioned dharmas is all the time distinctly precarious.” [It is] always unstable, uneasy. You don’t know what it is. So finally, day after day, from moment to moment, all you have to do is to make every possible effort to learn what life is. That’s all you have to do. Because intellectually, no matter how long you try to pin down what life is, you don’t know. So this is a final practice we have to do.

That is the simile of the lamp.

51:54

Fourth: a mock show. A mock show, dew drops, a bubble – those three are humanistic experience, [which] everyone can have.

4. Furthermore, the appearance of this world is like a mock show, a magical illusion. Like a magical show it deceives, deludes, and defrauds us, is false when compared with ultimate reality.

Because by ignorance we can see the world, but the world is already something different from the real picture of the world, because it is something appearing on the surface. I told you before, the basic nature of existence is nothing but dynamic action. [It is] just like [rapidly spinning a string with a coin tied to the end]. The motion always leaves its own form, the circle formed by the coin. Do you understand? So you can see the form of the circle, but this is nothing but form, provisional being. When the movement stops, it disappears. This is the world we understand. That’s why when you decide something, the next moment you aren’t satisfied – because it is nothing but the form of a circle created by the coin. This form is not different from the movement itself; that’s why all we have to do is to understand the movement itself, through this form. Form is the human world.

That’s why the human world is just like a mock show, a magic show: because we are completely deceived by this form. We take the picture of the form with the “camera” of our six consciousnesses, and then we believe this is the world that we have to depend on. But next moment, it disappears.

Things, as Vasubandhu says, are not a trustworthy support. It is assumed that the world of conditioned things is manufactured by ignorance, and Nagarjuna, in his great commentary, shows that ignorance and the products of the magician’s art have the following attributes in common: They are neither inside a person, nor outside, nor both inside or outside; …

Do you know magicians? [He chuckles.] The magician always has a certain trick. But that trick is just a trick. The trick doesn’t matter; a trick is a trick. You believe the magician’s magic is inside of the ping pong ball, [like in] kids’ magic shows. The ball is cut in half. So you show this […] and one by one you can create another ping pong ball here, again and again, like this. […] It’s a trick. [Laughter.] But the magic art is not in the ping pong ball, okay? You believe the magic art is inside the ping pong ball; I don’t think so, that is just a trick. The real magic art is not inside of the ping pong ball, nor outside. [That means] you or the magician in communication, already here it comes up – and then you believe. Do you understand?

So that’s why Nagarjuna says, “[neither] inside or outside.”

… they can therefor not be localized with reference to persons; there is nothing real that has been either produced or destroyed; no real event, with an essence of its own, has taken place. And yet, although ignorance is not real, it is the conditions for all kinds of activity. Similarly, the musical instruments conjured up by magic are empty, deceptive, without reality, without objective basis, and yet one can hear their music and can see them.

59:50

Number five:

5. The dewdrops may also be “hoar-frost.” That depends on the climate. Each thing is as evanescent as the dewdrops which soon evaporate under the sun’s rays.

This is very true, you can really experience it in your life.

I told you before, [once] I was very impressed by some aspect of Buddhist teaching through the study of Buddhism. At that time my feeling was sort of enlightenment; I really enjoyed it and I was very happy, because I could see the light in the human world, in the future, in my life, et cetera. I was really happy, so sooner or later I would like to tell somebody. So I told a friend. Immediately he said, “How stupid you are.” [Laughter.]

[Like] a dewdrop.

1:01:39

6. Like a bubble each experience bursts soon, and it can be enjoyed only for a moment. In Buddhist tradition, the bubble, a particularly unsubstantial entity, is usually related to the skandha of feeling. Dependent on three factors – enjoyer, enjoyable thing, and enjoyment – all joys quickly burst apart. And the same holds good of painful feelings also.

So “like a bubble each experience bursts soon, and can be enjoyed only for a moment,” because human experience immediately bursts apart. Subject and object [from] something else, immediately burst apart. And for a moment you can feel good, but next moment, it disappears.

You can really see your ideas and your thoughts [burst apart] in zazen; it’s really so, just like bubbles constantly coming up. You chase after one thought in zazen, [but] you cannot chase after it constantly, because another bubble comes up, so you are interested in another bubble. Constantly it disappears. If you seek for it, if you catch that one bubble, immediately the bubble bursts apart. Subject and object [are also] bubbles. […] Your life bursts apart in pieces, and they all disappear. Just like a waterfall: the water comes down from the top; it splashes into pieces [at the bottom]. The more something bursts apart in pieces, the more it pretty easily disappears quickly.

That is also very characteristic of human intellect, the dualistic world.

1:04:28

7. Only the enlightened are awakened to reality as it is; compared with their vision of true reality, our normal experience is that of a dream, unreal and not be taken seriously. Nagarjuna, in his great commentary, gives the following explanation of the simile of the dream: “(a) There is no reality in a dream, and yet, while one dreams, one believes in the reality of the things one sees in the dream. After one has woken up one recognizes the falseness of the dream and laughs at oneself. Just so a man who is plunged into the dreamy state which results from his fettered existence, has a belief in things which do not exist. But when he has found the Path, then, at the moment of enlightenment, he understands that there is no reality in them and he laughs at himself. (b) A dreamer, by the force of his dream, sees a thing where there is nothing. Just so a man, by the force of the dreamy state which results from ignorance, believes in the existence of all sorts of things which do not exist, such as I and mine, male and female, etc. (c) In a dream one rejoices although there is nothing enjoyable, one is angry although there is nothing to annoy, one is frightened although there is nothing to frighten. So do the beings with regard to the things of the world.” Therefor, like the things seen in a dream, the dharmas, although they do not exist, are nevertheless seen and heard and one is aware of them.

Let’s read all of them. Number eight:

8. Like a lightning flash, each event is short-lived. Lasting but one brief moment, it disappears again.

The last three – a dream, a lightning flash, and clouds – are explaining the characteristic of the human world in terms of origination in time. So a lightning flash means life is very short-lived.

9. Finally, we should look upon things in the spirit in which we watch the clouds on a hot summer day. They change their shape all the time, but as far as our welfare is concerned, one shape is as good as another. So do the transformations of the earthly scene not at all concern our true welfare.

Everything is changing constantly, everything is short-lived. That means there is nothing to hold on [to]. Constantly we must be [like] white paper. Day by day, we must be white papers, accepting the past life. And then, we can change, just like a cloud. [We do] not change personality, but we change conditions, and we can create opportunities. If you change your attitude toward your behaviors, very naturally you can create a better world. Just like a cloud: a cloud is always changing. The shape of the cloud is constantly changing. That is just like welfare for human beings, understanding the human world.

So that’s why finally he says, “So do the transformations of the earthly scene not at all concern our true welfare.” We cannot destroy the human world, and we cannot destroy human consciousness. But what we can do is, we should be careful to take care of the shape of human life, the shape of human behavior – in other words, what kind of attitude we should take from moment to moment. Under all circumstances, we should do it. At that time, we can create a good world.

Do you have some questions? I’m sorry, [I am losing] my voice.

1:11:37

The nine points of view are not a matter of discussion; whether you understand them or not, these nine points of view must penetrate your skin, muscle, bone, and marrow. How? You have to experience [them], and also you should [express them in your] life, taking care of human life with your best [effort]. Taking care of human life as a Buddha, instead of taking care of human life with your emotions, your affective preferences, et cetera. Anyway, completely beyond good or bad, right and wrong, we should take best care of human life. At that time very naturally you can experience the human world just like stars, dewdrops, bubbles, et cetera. And also zazen is more basic human experience. It is very true: if you do zazen, very naturally that human world penetrates your skin and muscle and bone.

Unfortunately I have to go to Omaha this weekend, I cannot be [at the rummage sale]. But we have lots of things to do from now on, so we need lots of help. [Name] will organize that one. Please help, even thirty minutes or ten minutes.

1:13:50 end of recording


This talk was transcribed by Kikan Michael Howard. Audio recordings of Katagiri Roshi are being used with permission of Minnesota Zen Meditation Center.

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